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Ha, I was just going to respond “it’s bad.” But yeah, the counterargument seems to be “it’s a myth” so I don’t know what there is to discuss.
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 311
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*shrugs shoulders* Ok, I tried.
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So…do you think it’s a myth?
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*shrugs shoulders* Ok, I tried.
I don’t get why you’re disappointed.
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I think maybe he was fishing for more of a nuanced “how prevalent is it?/how overt is it?” sort of discussion, rather than a “it’s bad/it’s a myth” stupid discussion.
I dunno. It’s all over the place AFAICT, but it’s often so subtle the people perpetuating it don’t realize it’s a problem until someone alerts them to it. The “that’s just the way we’ve always done things around here” force is a strong one.
Example: Back when record stores existed, shoppers may not have realized this, but the layout of the genres within the store was frequently organized according to perceived shoplifting risk, higher risk genres placed right up next to the sales counter, low-risk genres in far-off corners. And there damn well was a racial component in this. Now, the layout of a store can be set up one year, and just carried over for decades without conscious thought. The owners and employees can be oblivious. So can most of the shoppers. But the shoppers who are always followed by security in every store they enter? They notice. Is it a big deal? Well, the presumption of criminality everywhere you go certainly isn’t trivial, and this is part of that.
Having worked in a record store, I can also add that shoplifting-risk-by-genre is BS. If people want to steal something, they pick it up, THEN go to an unobserved corner to hide it, then walk out. So even if one genre is shoplifted more than others (and that’s a big “if”), the store’s genre layout isn’t going to do a thing about it.
Now, it’s a very particular example, but it illustrates some stuff–that institutional racism can be completely invisible to those who perpetuate it and also to most of the people who encounter it. And the only way it usually changes is for the targeted minority group to complain about it, sue, protest, boycott, legislate, whatever the appropriate avenue might be. And sometimes you just want to buy a damn record without having to go through all that.
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
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So…do you think it’s a myth?
no.
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so right?
What I read.
I’d like to know where you think he said something that isn’t right.
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I think maybe he was fishing for more of a nuanced “how prevalent is it?/how overt is it?” sort of discussion, rather than a “it’s bad/it’s a myth” stupid discussion.
exactly.
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I don’t know how prevalent it is, but that’s probably because I’m a white dude.
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so right?
What I read.
This is part of the problem, incorrectly reading what people say/write. You know what he wrote and it wasn’t “Do you always have to be so right?”
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so right?
What I read.
This is part of the problem, incorrectly reading what people say/write. You know what he wrote and it wasn’t “Do you always have to be so right?”
So many accusations.
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provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
I agree with this, provide examples. People want to say that I’m clueless about this because I am white. So provide examples to this clueless white guy and then maybe I won’t be so clueless anymore. Show more than just some stats.
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so right?
What I read.
This is part of the problem, incorrectly reading what people say/write. You know what he wrote and it wasn’t “Do you always have to be so right?”
So many accusations.
whatever.
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“you’re white”
“you’re male”
“you’re privileged”
“you’re part of the problem”
“you won’t admit to being part of the problem”
just who has been making “many accusations”?
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
I asked for examples. Fuck off.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
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You say all the same shit over and over again, and believe yourself to be so right that you can’t even explain your position. So there’s a problem. I didn’t deny that. What is it? What do we do about it? Evidently TRYING TO UNDERSTAND and not blindly accepting whatever you say as gospel makes me an asshole. So I give up. I tried to have a discussion, but you continue to deny to have one because you believe I’m “plugging my ears and going la la la” simply for asking for more from you. But you haven’t said anything of substance other than there’s a problem and white men are the root of it. WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT? If there’s nothing that can be done, there’s no use talking about it. Goddamn.
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
I asked for examples. Fuck off.
You say all the same shit over and over again, and believe yourself to be so right that you can’t even explain your position. So there’s a problem. I didn’t deny that. What is it? What do we do about it? Evidently TRYING TO UNDERSTAND and not blindly accepting whatever you say as gospel makes me an asshole. So I give up. I tried to have a discussion, but you continue to deny to have one because you believe I’m “plugging my ears and going la la la” simply for asking for more from you. But you haven’t said anything of substance other than there’s a problem and white men are the root of it. WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT? If there’s nothing that can be done, there’s no use talking about it. Goddamn.
Overreaction much?
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
I asked for examples. Fuck off.
You say all the same shit over and over again, and believe yourself to be so right that you can’t even explain your position. So there’s a problem. I didn’t deny that. What is it? What do we do about it? Evidently TRYING TO UNDERSTAND and not blindly accepting whatever you say as gospel makes me an asshole. So I give up. I tried to have a discussion, but you continue to deny to have one because you believe I’m “plugging my ears and going la la la” simply for asking for more from you. But you haven’t said anything of substance other than there’s a problem and white men are the root of it. WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT? If there’s nothing that can be done, there’s no use talking about it. Goddamn.
Overreaction much?
Perhaps, but I loathe unnecessary condescension, and this thread is full of it. There’s no point in having a discussion if no one is willing to have one.
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provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
I agree with this, provide examples. People want to say that I’m clueless about this because I am white. So provide examples to this clueless white guy and then maybe I won’t be so clueless anymore. Show more than just some stats.
Here’s an example of “not invisible but successfully explained away by bullshit reasoning” that went on (still going on?) for decades because people don’t ask questions:
Firefighters often had (and still have?) a men-only club. The BS reasoning? The average man has more upper body strength that the average woman, the job requires carrying very heavy gear, so we only accept men. Your average observer will check whether the facts presented are true, stamp the excuse as okey-dokey, and move on.
The problem? Well, if the job requirement is that you have to be able to carry X pounds of gear up Y flights of stairs and move quickly carrying that load for Z minutes, that seems like a really easy sort of thing to simply test outright without having to throw out applicants because you suspect they couldn’t do it, right? And now that’s what some firefighters do, and lookee here it turns out some women can do the job just fine after all.
The thing is that the invisibility of institutional racism/sexism doesn’t usually withstand that much scrutiny. But most of us get through life without carefully scrutinizing everything we encounter–how could we? Who has that kind of time? So we don’t notice things unless they specifically trip us up. Which is why it always seems to fall on minority groups to fix this stuff, and it pays to listen when someone gets up the nerve to complain about it.
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Getting a little heated in here. Tone it down, people.
Where were you in '77?
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
I asked for examples. Fuck off.
This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.
Being belligerent isn’t exactly the most inviting behavior for a reasoned discussion.
You’re only serving to prove my thesis that white dudes retreat back to their bubbles and overreact when their views are challenged.
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The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)
The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.
If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.
Do you always have to be so right?
What I read.
This is part of the problem, incorrectly reading what people say/write.
I didn’t incorrectly read anything, I just was agreeing with Dom in my own unique way.
You know what he wrote and it wasn’t “Do you always have to be so right?”
Yes.