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Why Didn't Qui Gon Gin's Body Disappear Like Obiwan's and Yoda's? — Page 2

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If a droid mentioning Obi Wan by name doesn’t jog his memory, nothing else will. I’m surprised he didn’t sneak down to the garage, and yank their batteries out. 😉

Of course Obi Wan doesn’t recognize the droids either, or is playing dumb.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

If a droid mentioning Obi Wan by name doesn’t jog his memory, nothing else will. I’m surprised he didn’t sneak down to the garage, and yank their batteries out. 😉

Of course Obi Wan doesn’t recognize the droids either, or is playing dumb.

Well as far as 3-PO saying Obi-Wan, I assumed that Owen just doesn’t want Luke hanging around Obi-Wan.
Also doesn’t he tell Luke to have their memories wiped?
“That’ll be the end of it. They belong to us now”.
That points to the fact that yes, 3-PO saying Obi Wan jogged his memory, BUT what he decided to do about it was just hit reset on the droids.

And nothing confirms that Obi Wan doesn’t remember R2.

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That still leaves plenty of time for them to talk before the next day. If someone suddenly shows up and endangers the massive web of lies you’ve been feeding your nephew all these years, you get them out of the picture as soon as possible. Dead droids tell no tales.

Not that I believe Lucas intended back in the '70’s that the droids had ever been to Tatooine before in the first place. 😉

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Where were you in '77?

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I’m assuming they wanted to preserve the surprise of the Anakin force ghost at the end of RotJ, hence why he doesn’t disappear. T’was a good choice, in my opinion.

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Chlorine said:

My headcanon for Owen not remembering 3-PO is that

  1. The odds are so astronomical that 3-PO would show up at his doorstep 20 years later in a Jawa sandcrawler that he doesn’t even consider that it could be a droid he once owned
  2. most protocol droids sound similar (TC-14 sounds prissy too).
  3. 3-PO is a different color to when he owned him
  4. He doesn’t even have the droid for any period of time before he before dies (as in, maybe he would have remembered eventually).

Point 1 is the big one though.

I think the biggest challenge for most viewers in this regard is that they view 3PO and R2 as characters in a story with unique personalities. There’s an emotional attachment there. To most people in the Star Wars universe, droids are iPhones with Siri…nothing more than silicon-based assistants with simulated personalities. There are probably millions (billions?) of protocol droids across the galaxy, many of whom look and act just like 3PO, and they’re treated the same way we treat our phones: the owner chooses a voice/personality that suits them and reacts in an annoyed fashion whenever the droid doesn’t interpret the owner’s requests as they’d intended. Eventually, they get sold or recycled.

The scene in the OT that always reaffirms this concept for me is when R2 gets blasted during the trench run. Note 3PO’s immediate concern contrasted with Leia’s total non-reaction. She doesn’t even flinch. After the battle, 3PO is offering donor parts and everyone else is smiling and laughing while Luke insists R2 will be fine. I’ve seen more emotional responses from people who’ve dropped their phones (and that’s primarily a “how much will this cost?” type of reaction).

I won’t get into the whole Blade Runner-esque question of whether 3PO’s reaction is “real” or programmed because that’s way deeper than anything Star Wars typically has on offer, but it’s always seemed apparent to me that Star Wars droids are tools that are readily dismissed and replaced by their fickle biological owners.

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MTFBWY…A

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SilverWook said:

That still leaves plenty of time for them to talk before the next day. If someone suddenly shows up and endangers the massive web of lies you’ve been feeding your nephew all these years, you get them out of the picture as soon as possible. Dead droids tell no tales.

Not that I believe Lucas intended back in the '70’s that the droids had ever been to Tatooine before in the first place. 😉

“Massive web of lies”.
Part of that web is tangled by the fact that as of 1977, Vader and Anakin were different people. (as in, the story was always in flux).

And i’m not saying Lucas intended it in 1977. I’m saying it fits a bit better (while still not being airtight) than people think.

Owen doesn’t remember 3-PO until Luke says that 3-PO mentioned Obi-Wan. At that point Owen tells Luke to have its memory wiped.

That brings it down to “minor contrivance” level at the very worst.

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And at least one cantina discriminates against them. 😉

Jay does have a good point. A casual attitude towards the droids is evident throughout the OT. Nobody gets choked up at Threepio being blasted in ESB, it’s more akin to “who messed up my car?” Han and Leia have no qualms about turning Threepio off when he gets too annoying. I can’t see Luke doing that, although he does put both droids into a potentially dangerous scenario in ROTJ. Whether he seriously thought Jabba would take them in trade for Han is up for debate. Rescuing the droids after they’ve fallen into a sand dune is almost an afterthought. And don’t forget the droids.

The old Marvel comics often explored the status of droids in the galaxy. Luke’s relationship with Artoo and Threepio is painted as unusual. When Artoo is severely damaged, (again) and a rebel tech questions whether the repair effort is worth it, (other droids could use salvageable parts) Luke loses his cool. Don’t tell me he’s only a machine!

In the Obi Wan flashback issue, Bail’s personal droid is traveling alone, and asks Ben if he would be willing to act as his master, as the spacelines don’t know whether to treat unaccompanied droids as passengers or luggage.

One reason Valance the bounty hunter pursues Luke, (besides self loathing of his secret cyborg status) is the bond with the droids disgusts him. He regularly pays to have dilapidated and broken down droids rounded up just so he can to blast them.

Cyborgs apparently are discriminated against too. In the first original issue after the movie adaptation, Han and Chewie get into the middle of a dispute defending a priest who’s trying to get a dead cyborg a proper burial. The locals don’t want him interred in the local cemetery, as he’s not an “organic”.

And I would be remiss in not mentioning Senator Greyshade and Master Com, possibly the first “robosexual” couple in Star Wars. Stormtroopers in The Wheel storyline are clearly disgusted at the idea of a droid expressing friendship for an organic.

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Where were you in '77?

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Chlorine said:

My headcanon for Owen not remembering 3-PO is that

  1. The odds are so astronomical that 3-PO would show up at his doorstep 20 years later in a Jawa sandcrawler that he doesn’t even consider that it could be a droid he once owned
  2. most protocol droids sound similar (TC-14 sounds prissy too).
  3. 3-PO is a different color to when he owned him
  4. He doesn’t even have the droid for any period of time before he before dies (as in, maybe he would have remembered eventually).

Point 1 is the big one though.

Not for anything, but 3PO also never tells Owen his name, and is in a completely different state of repair compared to the protocol droid he had over 20 years ago. The more worthwhile argument to have is why Obi-Wan doesn’t recognize R2, or why R2 doesn’t recognize Yoda or Dagobah after it’s been established (in the canon Clone Wars show) that they travelled there together.

EDIT: Disregard this, I hadn’t updated the thread in a few hours so I didn’t realize the conversation had already moved through this area.

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Lust-In-Phaze said:

Chlorine said:

My headcanon for Owen not remembering 3-PO is that

  1. The odds are so astronomical that 3-PO would show up at his doorstep 20 years later in a Jawa sandcrawler that he doesn’t even consider that it could be a droid he once owned
  2. most protocol droids sound similar (TC-14 sounds prissy too).
  3. 3-PO is a different color to when he owned him
  4. He doesn’t even have the droid for any period of time before he before dies (as in, maybe he would have remembered eventually).

Point 1 is the big one though.

Not for anything, but 3PO also never tells Owen his name, and is in a completely different state of repair compared to the protocol droid he had over 20 years ago. The more worthwhile argument to have is why Obi-Wan doesn’t recognize R2, or why R2 doesn’t recognize Yoda or Dagobah after it’s been established (in the canon Clone Wars show) that they travelled there together.

There’s nothing to indicate Obi-Wan not remembering R2.
I got no answer for the Yoda thing though.
TCW plays fast and loose with continuity in general. I still think Ahsoka doesn’t really gel with ROTS.

EDIT: I saw your edit but i’ll just leave this here in case people want to jump in.

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Chlorine said:

TV’s Frink said:

KumoNin said:

There is a scene in ROTS with Yoda and Obi on the Tantive, which explains this very thing. Yoda, Kenobi, Qui-Gon and Anakin are the only Jedi so far in to come back in ghost form, not all of them.

Well since two of those four disappeared and the other two didn’t, I fail to see how a scene in ROTS explains anything.

Qui-Gon is the first guy to figure it out though.
He “learned the path to immortality, and returned from the netherworld of the force”. He learned to manifest sometime after death, not before. So no disappearing.

As for Vader in ROTJ they either goofed, or Anakin had to learn from the rest of them after he died, since he likely never learned it in life, unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan who learned it from Qui-Gon.

Palpatine stole the technique from his master & promised to teach Anakin in ROTS,…to save Padme…Luring Anakin to the Dark Side (daft I know)…Palps continued to teach Vader,…but unfortunately a Sith can’t live on through the Force when he dies,…only a Jedi…(a bit like Heaven…sinners are bad),…but Vader redeemed himself at the end,…Luke incinerated his body & the spirit of Anakin lives on with the Force (daft I know).

Qui Gon died & was cremated at the end of TPM,…George totally forgot about this plot hole so he crammed in that Qui-Gon has been studying this technique but had not completely mastered it,…but after his body was torched,…he lived on through the Force…& came back as a spirit to Yoda & told him the special trick,…so Yoda told Obi-Wan to give Qui Gon’s spirit a shout while he was being a hermit on Tattooine so that he could do the ‘live on through the Force’ thing…(daft I know)

J

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Jaitea said:

Chlorine said:

TV’s Frink said:

KumoNin said:

There is a scene in ROTS with Yoda and Obi on the Tantive, which explains this very thing. Yoda, Kenobi, Qui-Gon and Anakin are the only Jedi so far in to come back in ghost form, not all of them.

Well since two of those four disappeared and the other two didn’t, I fail to see how a scene in ROTS explains anything.

Qui-Gon is the first guy to figure it out though.
He “learned the path to immortality, and returned from the netherworld of the force”. He learned to manifest sometime after death, not before. So no disappearing.

As for Vader in ROTJ they either goofed, or Anakin had to learn from the rest of them after he died, since he likely never learned it in life, unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan who learned it from Qui-Gon.

Palpatine stole the technique from his master & promised to teach Anakin in ROTS,…to save Padme…Luring Anakin to the Dark Side (daft I know)…Palps continued to teach Vader,…but unfortunately a Sith can’t live on through the Force when he dies,…only a Jedi…(a bit like Heaven…sinners are bad),…but Vader redeemed himself at the end,…Luke incinerated his body & the spirit of Anakin lives on with the Force (daft I know).

Qui Gon died & was cremated at the end of TPM,…George totally forgot about this plot hole so he crammed in that Qui-Gon has been studying this technique but had not completely mastered it,…but after his body was torched,…he lived on through the Force…& came back as a spirit to Yoda & told him the special trick,…so Yoda told Obi-Wan to give Qui Gon’s spirit a shout while he was being a hermit on Tattooine so that he could to the live on through the Force thing…(daft I know)

J

So what you’re saying is that George forgot but he didn’t forget?

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Chlorine said:

Jaitea said:

Chlorine said:

TV’s Frink said:

KumoNin said:

There is a scene in ROTS with Yoda and Obi on the Tantive, which explains this very thing. Yoda, Kenobi, Qui-Gon and Anakin are the only Jedi so far in to come back in ghost form, not all of them.

Well since two of those four disappeared and the other two didn’t, I fail to see how a scene in ROTS explains anything.

Qui-Gon is the first guy to figure it out though.
He “learned the path to immortality, and returned from the netherworld of the force”. He learned to manifest sometime after death, not before. So no disappearing.

As for Vader in ROTJ they either goofed, or Anakin had to learn from the rest of them after he died, since he likely never learned it in life, unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan who learned it from Qui-Gon.

Palpatine stole the technique from his master & promised to teach Anakin in ROTS,…to save Padme…Luring Anakin to the Dark Side (daft I know)…Palps continued to teach Vader,…but unfortunately a Sith can’t live on through the Force when he dies,…only a Jedi…(a bit like Heaven…sinners are bad),…but Vader redeemed himself at the end,…Luke incinerated his body & the spirit of Anakin lives on with the Force (daft I know).

Qui Gon died & was cremated at the end of TPM,…George totally forgot about this plot hole so he crammed in that Qui-Gon has been studying this technique but had not completely mastered it,…but after his body was torched,…he lived on through the Force…& came back as a spirit to Yoda & told him the special trick,…so Yoda told Obi-Wan to give Qui Gon’s spirit a shout while he was being a hermit on Tattooine so that he could to the live on through the Force thing…(daft I know)

J

So what you’re saying is that George forgot but he didn’t forget?

Yep totally forgot until the last episode (3,…for George, that is)…better explain that disappearing thing

…crammed it in

have you watched the films?

J

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Jaitea said:

Chlorine said:

Jaitea said:

Chlorine said:

TV’s Frink said:

KumoNin said:

There is a scene in ROTS with Yoda and Obi on the Tantive, which explains this very thing. Yoda, Kenobi, Qui-Gon and Anakin are the only Jedi so far in to come back in ghost form, not all of them.

Well since two of those four disappeared and the other two didn’t, I fail to see how a scene in ROTS explains anything.

Qui-Gon is the first guy to figure it out though.
He “learned the path to immortality, and returned from the netherworld of the force”. He learned to manifest sometime after death, not before. So no disappearing.

As for Vader in ROTJ they either goofed, or Anakin had to learn from the rest of them after he died, since he likely never learned it in life, unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan who learned it from Qui-Gon.

Palpatine stole the technique from his master & promised to teach Anakin in ROTS,…to save Padme…Luring Anakin to the Dark Side (daft I know)…Palps continued to teach Vader,…but unfortunately a Sith can’t live on through the Force when he dies,…only a Jedi…(a bit like Heaven…sinners are bad),…but Vader redeemed himself at the end,…Luke incinerated his body & the spirit of Anakin lives on with the Force (daft I know).

Qui Gon died & was cremated at the end of TPM,…George totally forgot about this plot hole so he crammed in that Qui-Gon has been studying this technique but had not completely mastered it,…but after his body was torched,…he lived on through the Force…& came back as a spirit to Yoda & told him the special trick,…so Yoda told Obi-Wan to give Qui Gon’s spirit a shout while he was being a hermit on Tattooine so that he could to the live on through the Force thing…(daft I know)

J

So what you’re saying is that George forgot but he didn’t forget?

Yep totally forgot until the last episode (3)…better explain that disappearing thing

…crammed it in

have you watched the films?

J

2 things.

First, Qui-Gon can be heard in AotC as a force ghost, meaning it was on George’s mind.
Second, this article from 1999, http://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/star-wars-archive-george-lucas-1999-interview/ says the following…

INTERVIEWER: In A New Hope, R2-D2 and C-3PO land on Tatooine and haven’t got a clue where they are. Yet in The Phantom Menace, R2 travels to Tatooine and C-3PO was built there. How so?

LUCAS: How so? That will all be coming up. (laughs) There’s a lot of little things that’ll be cleared up. The other one that gets asked a lot is why doesn’t Qui-Gon disappear like everybody else. That’s a plot point that centres around Obi-Wan saying to Vader/Anakin in the first one, “If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” There is an issue about The Force and that will be revealed.


So as you can see, it (the ROTS resolution) was on his mind from the beginning (1999).

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Yep,…but he hadn’t figured it out yet so he crammed it in along with the Plagus thing

R2 knows exactly where he is,…he’s on a mission

J

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Jaitea said:

Yep,…but he hadn’t figured it out yet so he crammed it in along with the Plagus thing

J

And now you’ve moved the goalposts.
You said he forgot. I provided proof that he didn’t.

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Chlorine said:

Jaitea said:

Yep,…but he hadn’t figured it out yet so he crammed it in along with the Plagus thing

J

And now you’ve moved the goalposts.
You said he forgot. I provided proof that he didn’t.

same thing

j

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Jaitea said:

Chlorine said:

Jaitea said:

Yep,…but he hadn’t figured it out yet so he crammed it in along with the Plagus thing

J

And now you’ve moved the goalposts.
You said he forgot. I provided proof that he didn’t.

same thing

j

Not even close. I proved your original claim objectively wrong. We’re done here.

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Chlorine said:

Jaitea said:

Chlorine said:

Jaitea said:

Yep,…but he hadn’t figured it out yet so he crammed it in along with the Plagus thing

J

And now you’ve moved the goalposts.
You said he forgot. I provided proof that he didn’t.

same thing

j

Not even close. I proved your original claim objectively wrong. We’re done here.

The point is George crammed it in,…whether he forgot or thought he had plenty of time to explain the vanishing trick…he ran out of time & tried to tie up heaps of loose ends in his final episode,…contradicting himself all over the place…now if you want to draw out my ‘forgot’ statement as though Geordie had some master plan,…we all know he didn’t…he makes it up as he goes

j

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Jaitea said:

Chlorine said:

Jaitea said:

Chlorine said:

Jaitea said:

Yep,…but he hadn’t figured it out yet so he crammed it in along with the Plagus thing

J

And now you’ve moved the goalposts.
You said he forgot. I provided proof that he didn’t.

same thing

j

Not even close. I proved your original claim objectively wrong. We’re done here.

The point is George crammed it in,…whether he forgot or thought he had plenty of time to explain the vanishing trick…he ran out of time & tried to tie up heaps of loose ends in his final episode,…contradicting himself all over the place…now if you want to draw out my ‘forgot’ statement as though Geordie had some master plan,…we all know he didn’t…he makes it up as he goes

j

???
I literally just proved to you that he

  1. put Qui-Gon’s voice in AotC with Yoda
    and
  2. Had it on his mind from 1999.

I’d say the ROTS resolution is perfectly reasonable. Really can’t see an angle where Yoda’s talk with Kenobi about Qui-Gon is unclear or contradictory.

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Meh - there was a “sort of” explanation… I think it was probably fine given the topic to leave it kind of vague.

Whatever happened to that Sifo-Dyas explanation btw? LOL

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Chlorine said:

???
I literally just proved to you that he

  1. put Qui-Gon’s voice in AotC with Yoda
    and
  2. Had it on his mind from 1999.

I’d say the ROTS resolution is perfectly reasonable. Really can’t see an angle where Yoda’s talk with Kenobi about Qui-Gon is unclear or contradictory.

C

ftfy

L

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I really have no time for you

The contradictions in Georges storytelling between the OT & PT are well known,…I’m not going to retell them to you,…watch th films with a critical eye

J

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Just ignore the prequels and you don’t have to worry about **** like this.