Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 53

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:
You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?

To me? No. Again, I still see the Dark Side as the malignant tumour on the energy field that life creates. It is not a difference in philosophy; it is the manifestation of the emotions behind bigotry and oppression. Being “A little dark” is akin to being “a little evil.”

We all harbor some amount of taint inside us. Luke would no doubt accept that and try to use his for the betterment of the Galaxy. The nature of these base feelings doesn’t matter so long as the outcome is good.

The Force is not a tool; it is not just a means to an end. It is the very thing that brings life together. Using the corruption of the energy created by life to protect life is hypocritical at best.

Sometimes extraordinary and/or unpleasant measures have to be taken to ensure peace in the long run. Does this fact conflict with emotional whatevertheshits? Of course it does but feelings don’t matter in situations of this magnitude.

And what you call hypocritical is what I call being able to see patterns or new ways thinking and adapting to your philosophy. And to pit it in even simpler terms it’s just being realistic.

But does a hypothetical “peace” justify using the very power that when used, brings the chaos and war that plagues the Galaxy?

Yes, if the current ways of handling these issues or even keeping your power are shown to be ineffectual. Also like I said all that matters is the intention of the individual as guns can be looked in the same light. They cause death no matter who’s using them but the reasons for the death and the results of said person dying completely change the nature of that action. You can use a gun to massacre a bunch of people or you can use it to save the life of an innocent. Your choice.

It would seem to me that encouraging the use of the Dark side would encourage those who can’t control themselves to fall, thus creating a neverending cycle of war and violence that would be defining to the galaxy.

It can go both ways as someone who is fully committed to the Light could see anyone who even thinks using Dark Side elements in your fights or philosophy as dangerous. Also war is always going to be abundant and this wouldn’t fix that but it would make it so that this New Order didn’t have a philosophy that is full of holes and is based on wishful thinking and suppressing natural emotions. Also it could give this Order a more varied arsenal to combat would be conquerers who are fully committed to the Dark Side.

To me it would seem better to teach apprentices outlets for fear and anger that would avoid tapping into the dark side, to trust that the will of the Force is what’s best, rather than to try to control that which can easily corrupt those who try.

I’m not exactly one for half measures and surely relying ob such a thing would only give the Force Wielder a hallow shell of the power (and understanding) they would receive if they fully embraced that tenant or power that is associated with the Dark Side.

TV’s Frink said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

TV’s Frink said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Watched the teaser.

I have no strong feelings either way.

Read this post.

I anticipated it.

Lair.

Hmmm, no.

I don’t believe you! It’s another trick!

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:
You don’t think he can adopt a philosophy of “Use your inner darkness to best your enemies but don’t let it envelope you for too long”? Also what’s to say that Luke didn’t take bits and pieces of philosophy that Dark Siders hold dear and use them to bolster his new philosophy?

To me? No. Again, I still see the Dark Side as the malignant tumour on the energy field that life creates. It is not a difference in philosophy; it is the manifestation of the emotions behind bigotry and oppression. Being “A little dark” is akin to being “a little evil.”

We all harbor some amount of taint inside us. Luke would no doubt accept that and try to use his for the betterment of the Galaxy. The nature of these base feelings doesn’t matter so long as the outcome is good.

The Force is not a tool; it is not just a means to an end. It is the very thing that brings life together. Using the corruption of the energy created by life to protect life is hypocritical at best.

Ah, but is the energy created by life good or evil? I think not. It is neutral. It is what you do with it that is good or evil. So the force energy itself is not what corrupts. It is how you use it, which is why the Jedi can be corrupt users of the light side of the force. So Luke touching the dark side of the force is not Luke turning to evil. Yoda is quite correct that fear, anger, hate lead to the dark side, but we are presented with Jedi in the PT who are cut off from being complete beings. They are not to participate in the natural functions of life and this slants their perspective. They don’t want to train Anakin because he is too old and has fears. Rather than train him how to handle those fears they try to train him to have no fears. It didn’t work. Yoda’s training with Luke is very similar (and for OT purists, the only one that matters). But much of what is later expounded on in the PT has its origins in Yoda’s training of Luke. The dire warning of once you start down that path it will forever dominate your destiny is pretty much the basis for all the PT Jedi teachings. The Jedi were convinced that bringing balance to the force meant that the Jedi would prevail. From the outcome, that was not the case. The old ways - on both sides, needed to be cleansed and to do that the Jedi and Sith must be wiped out. I think the new Trilogy is going to further expound on that, much as Rebels has been. Lucas as much as admitted that when Luke brings Anakin back from the Dark Side in ROTJ and Anakin kills the Emperor, the he had indeed brought balance to the force. What we are left with at the end of ROTJ is no old style Jedi and no Sith. Only Luke. And we have already seen that Luke doesn’t follow the Jedi rules and is making his own way. I’m guessing that in TLJ we will find out that Luke attempted to raise up a new order of Jedi using the old ways and has found that the old Jedi ways do not work and in fact lead to the temptation to turn to the Dark Side. The old ways did not prepare Ben and left him susceptible to the Dark Side.

And whether Lucas intended it or not, the way he has written the Saga to this point very much has yin and yang at its heart. Anakin/Vader and Luke could not do what they did otherwise. If the Dark Side is truly all consuming then they could never have come back - Vader from being consumed and Luke from letting his anger fill him in that final duel. The inclusion of the Bogan in Rebels has been very interesting and enlightening.

Lord Haseo said:

Yes, if the current ways of handling these issues or even keeping your power are shown to be ineffectual. Also like I said all that matters is the intention of the individual as guns can be looked in the same light. They cause death no matter who’s using them but the reasons for the death and the results of said person dying completely change the nature of that action. You can use a gun to massacre a bunch of people or you can use it to save the life of an innocent. Your choice.

I’m not interested in discussing real politics, so I’m leaving guns out. However, there’s a fundamental difference between a gun and the Force: the Force has a goddamn will of its own. Trying to control the Dark Side is like trying to control the One Ring. Lots of people thought they could, but the only one who wasn’t tempted was the man who didn’t want its power in the first place, and so didn’t use it.

It would seem to me that encouraging the use of the Dark side would encourage those who can’t control themselves to fall, thus creating a neverending cycle of war and violence that would be defining to the galaxy.

It can go both ways as someone who is fully committed to the Light could see anyone who even thinks using Dark Side elements in your fights or philosophy as dangerous. Also war is always going to be abundant and this wouldn’t fix that but it would make it so that this New Order didn’t have a philosophy that is full of holes and is based on wishful thinking and suppressing natural emotions. Also it could give this Order a more varied arsenal to combat would be conquerers who are fully committed to the Dark Side.

The Light Side isn’t about repressing emotions. Seriously, if I had to pin down the worst thing about the Prequels, it wouldn’t be the dialogue, or the idiot balls tossed around, or Jar-Jar. It would be how poorly it represented what it was trying to convey. The Jedi Order of the Clone Wars was a corrupt, dogmatic order of zealots so afraid of the Dark Side that couldn’t even embrace the compassion the Light tried to offer them. You don’t need to repress your emotions to avoid going down the Dark Path. You just needed to trust the Force.

The Dark Side was about manipulating the Force to control fate, the Light was about letting the Force guide their destiny. If they needed to intervene and use the force themselves, then it would be to serve as the white blood cells of the Galaxy, fighting the infection of strife and darkness.

To me it would seem better to teach apprentices outlets for fear and anger that would avoid tapping into the dark side, to trust that the will of the Force is what’s best, rather than to try to control that which can easily corrupt those who try.

I’m not exactly one for half measures and surely relying ob such a thing would only give the Force Wielder a hallow shell of the power (and understanding) they would receive if they fully embraced that tenant or power that is associated with the Dark Side.

The force isn’t a tool. Not using the Dark Side isn’t saying “I won’t use Force Lightning,” it’s saying “I won’t let my anger and fear control my life for me.”

Nevermind what Yoda said in Empire:

“Is the dark side stronger?”
“No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.” You are not limiting yourself by not using the Dark Side.

@Yotsuya: I don’t think we’re entirely opposed. I still think there’s supposed to be a clear “Dark Side”, but at the same time, I would like to see Luke train a new generation of Force Sensitives who trusted their compassion, rather than cut themselves off from it.

Mavimao said:

Perhaps that last line reflects Luke’s idea that the Force has done more harm than good and perhaps wishes it would die off.

Just a thought.

This would go against everything the OT stands for.

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:

Yes, if the current ways of handling these issues or even keeping your power are shown to be ineffectual. Also like I said all that matters is the intention of the individual as guns can be looked in the same light. They cause death no matter who’s using them but the reasons for the death and the results of said person dying completely change the nature of that action. You can use a gun to massacre a bunch of people or you can use it to save the life of an innocent. Your choice.

I’m not interested in discussing real politics, so I’m leaving guns out. However, there’s a fundamental difference between a gun and the Force: the Force has a goddamn will of its own.

Other than the myriad of plot contrivances in Star Wars films the will of the Force doesn’t have any bearing on how one uses it.

Trying to control the Dark Side is like trying to control the One Ring. Lots of people thought they could, but the only one who wasn’t tempted was the man who didn’t want its power in the first place, and so didn’t use it.

Would it be safer not to dabble in Dark Side teachings and training? Sure, but the advantages one could be blessed with if they find balance is inconceivable. That alone should warrant someone like Luke to at least try. There are so many things that have been invented and events that have transpired because someone took a risk and didn’t give in to fear and apathy.

It would seem to me that encouraging the use of the Dark side would encourage those who can’t control themselves to fall, thus creating a neverending cycle of war and violence that would be defining to the galaxy.

It can go both ways as someone who is fully committed to the Light could see anyone who even thinks using Dark Side elements in your fights or philosophy as dangerous. Also war is always going to be abundant and this wouldn’t fix that but it would make it so that this New Order didn’t have a philosophy that is full of holes and is based on wishful thinking and suppressing natural emotions. Also it could give this Order a more varied arsenal to combat would be conquerers who are fully committed to the Dark Side.

The Light Side isn’t about repressing emotions. Seriously, if I had to pin down the worst thing about the Prequels, it wouldn’t be the dialogue, or the idiot balls tossed around, or Jar-Jar. It would be how poorly it represented what it was trying to convey.

Perhaps worshiping Ashla alone doesn’t mean to abandon all emotions but the first line of the Jedi Code says this and it’s canon. This would be a good way to retcon that shit.

The Jedi Order of the Clone Wars was a corrupt, dogmatic order of zealots so afraid of the Dark Side that couldn’t even embrace the compassion the Light tried to offer them. You don’t need to repress your emotions to avoid going down the Dark Path. You just needed to trust the Force.

The Dark Side was about manipulating the Force to control fate, the Light was about letting the Force guide their destiny. If they needed to intervene and use the force themselves, then it would be to serve as the white blood cells of the Galaxy, fighting the infection of strife and darkness.

Either way you look at it when the Jedi intervene they are using The Force to reach a conclusion through Forceful means which means they controlling fate.

To me it would seem better to teach apprentices outlets for fear and anger that would avoid tapping into the dark side, to trust that the will of the Force is what’s best, rather than to try to control that which can easily corrupt those who try.

I’m not exactly one for half measures and surely relying ob such a thing would only give the Force Wielder a hallow shell of the power (and understanding) they would receive if they fully embraced that tenant or power that is associated with the Dark Side.

The force isn’t a tool. Not using the Dark Side isn’t saying “I won’t use Force Lightning,” it’s saying “I won’t let my anger and fear control my life for me.”

You don’t need to have people use their base emotional states (anger in this case) to not fall to the Dark Side. All that Luke needs to teach people is some self control, the possible fates for those who veer too much to either side and above all that one can’t become a whole person or even a person who is truly knowledgeable unless they truly embrace being open minded and adapting when need be. Of course this would be in addition to a great deal of standard Jedi teachings.

Nevermind what Yoda said in Empire:

“Is the dark side stronger?”
“No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.” You are not limiting yourself by not using the Dark Side.

The quicker and easier aspects of The Dark Side would be quite advantageous for Luke to adopt into his new philosophy. Sure, it’s not inherently stronger but using it to gain power quicker is a definite advantage for those who are still training or trying to progress themselves extensively.

flametitan said:
The Light Side isn’t about repressing emotions. Seriously, if I had to pin down the worst thing about the Prequels, it wouldn’t be the dialogue, or the idiot balls tossed around, or Jar-Jar. It would be how poorly it represented what it was trying to convey. The Jedi Order of the Clone Wars was a corrupt, dogmatic order of zealots so afraid of the Dark Side that couldn’t even embrace the compassion the Light tried to offer them. You don’t need to repress your emotions to avoid going down the Dark Path. You just needed to trust the Force.

Thank you so much for these posts. You’re fighting the good fight. This is what I constantly try to get across to people - prequel Jedi are not OT Jedi, and that is the main failing of the prequels. Even when people hate the prequels, their perceptions are still colored and biased against the simple good versus evil narrative that Star Wars is supposed to be.

Alderaan said:

Mavimao said:

Perhaps that last line reflects Luke’s idea that the Force has done more harm than good and perhaps wishes it would die off.

Just a thought.

This would go against everything the OT stands for.

Thank you.

Vladius said:

Even when people hate the prequels, their perceptions are still colored and biased against the simple good versus evil narrative that Star Wars is supposed to be.

Yeah, 'cause it’s simplistic and boring.

Of course, YMMV.

Vladius said:
Even when people hate the prequels, their perceptions are still colored and biased against the simple good versus evil narrative that Star Wars is supposed to be.

The Empire Strikes Back along with other Star Wars material have shown that Star Wars can be far far more than what it was originally conceived to be. I refuse to adopt that mindset but it’s fine if you do.

Pretty exciting teaser.

Here’s a wild prediction based on the trailer: Phasma is attacking the Resistance base at the beginning similar to ESB, which causes Poe to drag the still comatose Fin with him. Fin then stays in coma until the end of the movie, but he’s able to use the force while still being comatose to safe the day.

Good vs Evil … simple core premise.
Revenge … simple core premise.

Both premises can be completely enthralling or completely muddled and lost in medoicre execution.

Lord Haseo said:

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:

Other than the myriad of plot contrivances in Star Wars films the will of the Force doesn’t have any bearing on how one uses it.

Would it be safer not to dabble in Dark Side teachings and training? Sure, but the advantages one could be blessed with if they find balance is inconceivable. That alone should warrant someone like Luke to at least try. There are so many things that have been invented and events that have transpired because someone took a risk and didn’t give in to fear and apathy.

Perhaps worshiping Ashla alone doesn’t mean to abandon all emotions but the first line of the Jedi Code says this and it’s canon. This would be a good way to retcon that shit.

Either way you look at it when the Jedi intervene they are using The Force to reach a conclusion through Forceful means which means they controlling fate.

You don’t need to have people use their base emotional states (anger in this case) to not fall to the Dark Side. All that Luke needs to teach people is some self control, the possible fates for those who veer too much to either side and above all that one can’t become a whole person or even a person who is truly knowledgeable unless they truly embrace being open minded and adapting when need be. Of course this would be in addition to a great deal of standard Jedi teachings.

The quicker and easier aspects of The Dark Side would be quite advantageous for Luke to adopt into his new philosophy. Sure, it’s not inherently stronger but using it to gain power quicker is a definite advantage for those who are still training or trying to progress themselves extensively.

This all comes down to whether the dark side can be controlled. To me, a fundamental aspect of the nature of the Dark side is that it can’t. That’s why it’s so dangerous, and why the Jedi avoided going down the path in the first place (even if they went overboard).

It really feels like you’re stripping it of its teeth if somebody can control it, even if it takes far more training than not using it.

(As for the Force having its own will: There’s a lot of hints that it does. From Star Wars where Obi Wan says that the Force partially controls your actions, to Rogue One where Chirrut merely trusting of the Force lets him complete his objective)

When topics like this come up, I like to go back to the beginning. Yes, the PT can color things, but when you look at some of the oldest materials (the earlier drafts of the screenplay, the novelizations, etc.), I have found that Lucas has been remarkably consistent on some points. We’ve always known that Vader was consumed by the dark side. How was left to the PT, but the how is immaterial to the outcome of the OT. Vader was redeemed. He came back. In that one act Vader/Anakin proves that Yoda was not telling Luke the whole truth. Yoda did say the dark side would forever dominate your destiny, and we don’t get to see what the redeemed Anakin might have become, but that he came back from the power that had consumed him really proves that the dark side is not what the Jedi think it is. They avoid it. They have no training in it. They really don’t know what it is except that when someone is consumed by it they become evil. They are closed to any exploration of it. When you have a natural force and you block all study of a part of it, that part with be very tempting to some. And rather than train Jedi to avoid temptation, they are trained to avoid anything that could lead to temptation. That was inherent to the advice Yoda gave in TESB and more explicitly detailed in the PT.

To me bringing balance to the force meant the destruction of all who had slanted teachings. Rather than the polar opposites, the force seeks those who delve into its mysteries to tread wisely but explore it fully. Not the light or dark, but the gray.

flametitan said:
It really feels like you’re stripping it of its teeth if somebody can control it, even if it takes far more training than not using it.

This kind of ties into something I wanted to post about TLJ in general. The Sith philosophy has a huge emphasis on the strength of the individual and that’s something I want Luke and Rey to teach their new students. It wouldn’t take anything away from the Dark Side as those who don’t control it will still “fall”. The allure of wanting to use the Dark Side exclusively will still be there but this will add an extra layer to the struggle future characters will face.

(As for the Force having its own will: There’s a lot of hints that it does. From Star Wars where Obi Wan says that the Force partially controls your actions

From what I know that only counts for stuff like being able to duel instinctively while contemplating something or conjuring power to unleash a powerful Force Ability and for instinctively raising up a Force Shield within a fraction of a second before a Force Push/Wave.

to Rogue One where Chirrut merely trusting of the Force lets him complete his objective)

I thought Chirrut wasn’t Force Sensitive…I recall reading that he used a bunch of other things to help him achieve his feats. If he isn’t Force Sensitive he was just trusting the Force to make things fall into place just like with the plot contrivances.

SilverWook said:

Do my eyes deceive me, or are there some OT X Wings in the teaser?

I kept thinking that too, but I think it’s just the paint job maybe? A-Wings are there too but could also be slightly altered. Hard to pause the thing in motion.

Lord Haseo said:

flametitan said:
It really feels like you’re stripping it of its teeth if somebody can control it, even if it takes far more training than not using it.

This kind of ties into something I wanted to post about TLJ in general. The Sith philosophy has a huge emphasis on the strength of the individual and that’s something I want Luke and Rey to teach their new students. It wouldn’t take anything away from the Dark Side as those who don’t control it will still “fall”. The allure of wanting to use the Dark Side exclusively will still be there but this will add an extra layer to the struggle future characters will face.

I’m not too big on that. I want them to focus less on bettering themselves and on bettering those who aren’t so attuned to the Force. They shouldn’t be monks seeking perfection of self, rather community leaders resolving conflict without violence (but detatched from the actual political ladder so that no force may have sway over them other than the Living Force around them).

From what I know that only counts for stuff like being able to duel instinctively while contemplating something or conjuring power to unleash a powerful Force Ability and for instinctively raising up a Force Shield within a fraction of a second before a Force Push/Wave.

Duelling instinctively it is indeed. However, to me it represents even less than instinct and just letting go of your surroundings. The Force knows what it’s doing, let it fight for you instead.

I thought Chirrut wasn’t Force Sensitive…

Which is my point.

I recall reading that he used a bunch of other things to help him achieve his feats. If he isn’t Force Sensitive he was just trusting the Force to make things fall into place just like with the plot contrivances.

I wouldn’t call it mere contrivance when an entire plot point is elite stormtroopers start missing because a dude was praying. It’s very clearly implied that the will of the Force was with him, and let him get to the Master Switch. Ergo, the Force appears to have some kind of will beyond that which the Jedi, Sith, Ren, and whatever Luke has in mind provide.

I wonder what made Luke so adamant in saying that line? The Jedi have been around forever. That said, I wonder if we’ll see any Siths?

Lord Haseo said:
The Empire Strikes Back along with other Star Wars material have shown that Star Wars can be far far more than what it was originally conceived to be. I refuse to adopt that mindset but it’s fine if you do.

You’re confusing different with good.

There are several posters here who complain every time they see the word “rehash”, and then when they see criticism of something “not Star Wars”, they are quick to follow with accusations of “make up your damn mind!”

Something can be different and try new things and still be in the same spirit as the original. The Empire Strikes Back fits that category. It was Star Wars, but it was more Star Wars, and the spirit of the story was still the same as the spirit of the original, even if it explored more complex emotions and conceits.

On the other hand, something can be different from the original, and can be conceived in a spirit that is entirely counter to the original. Midichlorians in the prequels is an example of this latter category. It took a conceit from the original movies, went in another direction with it, but that direction was against the very spirit of what the originals stood for.

It is not good to do a rehash. It is good to give us a new story. However, it would be extremely not good to give us a story that spits in the face of everything the original trilogy stood for.

Alderaan said:

Lord Haseo said:
The Empire Strikes Back along with other Star Wars material have shown that Star Wars can be far far more than what it was originally conceived to be. I refuse to adopt that mindset but it’s fine if you do.

You’re confusing different with good.

There are several posters here who complain every time they see the word “rehash”, and then when they see criticism of something “not Star Wars”, they are quick to follow with accusations of “make up your damn mind!”

Something can be different and try new things and still be in the same spirit as the original. The Empire Strikes Back fits that category. It was Star Wars, but it was more Star Wars, and the spirit of the story was still the same as the spirit of the original, even if it explored more complex emotions and conceits.

On the other hand, something can be different from the original, and can be conceived in a spirit that is entirely counter to the original. Midichlorians in the prequels is an example of this latter category. It took a conceit from the original movies, went in another direction with it, but that direction was against the very spirit of what the originals stood for.

It is not good to do a rehash. It is good to give us a new story. However, it would be extremely not good to give us a story that spits in the face of everything the original trilogy stood for.

Reminder that

1. The force was always biological “My father has it, I have it, My sister has it” (yes, that quote is from ROTJ, but even in ANH it’s implied that he has a strong connection to the force because of his father.)
2. Mididchlorians are not themselves the force, merely conduits.

flametitan said:

NeverarGreat said:

flametitan said:

NeverarGreat said:

Loved the trailer, basically confirms that Luke is abandoning the Jedi for a balance.

Not sure how I feel about that. I actually really disliked how Legends started to take “balance” literally, and that the Jedi and Sith were merely philosophical differences, rather than how the Dark side was a tumour on the Force originally.

There’s no denying that the ‘Light’ side of the Force has issues as well, which is why it was only by recognizing the Dark Side that Luke was able to prevail in Jedi. The Jedi’s prohibition against some emotions and the dogma that they are impossible to overcome once indulged in was shown absolutely to be false. I for one appreciate the new direction this is taking.

But the Jedi Dogmatism was supposed to represent corruption in the Jedi (If we are to believe Lucas, who has had issues representing what he actually meant in the Prequels). The default state of the Jedi was supposed to be much more benevolent, but at some point they literally forgot their connection to the Force to use it as little more than a tool. Using the RotS novelization as a reference, Obi-Wan points out how the Jedi council in ages past didn’t bicker, but rather let the Force guide them to an answer, hinting that the Jedi lost their way.

In Jedi, that sequence was anything but Luke prevailing by channelling the darkness. If you look beyond Luke kicking Vader’s ass, the set up is that Luke lost control of himself because of Vader’s words getting to him; the music turns ominous, representing Luke going against what he stood for; and finally, when the fight ends, Luke is absolutely horrified at what he did. It wasn’t a triumph by finding “balance” between light and dark, it’s despair as our hero verges on becoming the monster he fought.

It could be like the Exorcist. Luke could be having a crisis of faith. He knows that the Dark Side is on the rise again so maybe he will come round to restoring the order with adjustment. Seeing the cultural vandalism in Rogue One it would feel like a victory for Palpatine if the Jedi were to blink out of existence.

flametitan said:

Lord Haseo said:

flametitan said:
It really feels like you’re stripping it of its teeth if somebody can control it, even if it takes far more training than not using it.

This kind of ties into something I wanted to post about TLJ in general. The Sith philosophy has a huge emphasis on the strength of the individual and that’s something I want Luke and Rey to teach their new students. It wouldn’t take anything away from the Dark Side as those who don’t control it will still “fall”. The allure of wanting to use the Dark Side exclusively will still be there but this will add an extra layer to the struggle future characters will face.

I’m not too big on that. I want them to focus less on bettering themselves and on bettering those who aren’t so attuned to the Force.

It can be disproportionate but focusing on the strength of the is the one thing from the Sith philosophy that I want to be used in Luke’s new order.

They shouldn’t be monks seeking perfection of self, rather community leaders resolving conflict without violence (but detatched from the actual political ladder so that no force may have sway over them other than the Living Force around them).

I can see the ancient Jedi believing that having a disconnect between the politics and their order would be advantageous as some taint from the political side could seep into their order. Also I think the Jedi should only be brought into the fold for the most serious of circumstances.

I wouldn’t call it mere contrivance when an entire plot point is elite stormtroopers start missing because a dude was praying. It’s very clearly implied that the will of the Force was with him, and let him get to the Master Switch. Ergo, the Force appears to have some kind of will beyond that which the Jedi, Sith, Ren, and whatever Luke has in mind provide.

I didn’t say it was a plot contrivance. I said it was akin to a plot contrivance as both are examples of The Force bending things so that certain events may transpire. So I guess we agree on that point but it doesn’t change how I see the Dark Side and the Light.