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Ranking the Star Wars films — Page 81

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DuracellEnergizer said:

I doubt I’ll ever understand Rogue One hate.

Neither will I. Even the “the characters are shit” complaint can go only so far as there are other aspects of the film that need to be factored in.

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moviefreakedmind said:

I didn’t hate it, I just thought it was boring.

That I can understand, even if I don’t share the same opinion. Active animosity, though? That leaves me scratching my head.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

I doubt I’ll ever understand Rogue One hate.

It’s boring. The first half hour reads like a travel channel interstellar trip planner. There’s little to no character development or world building. It’s exceptionally wordy and one might say overacted, but I think the fault was actually the directing. Characters are set up to behave one way and then do things entirely against their nature. There are tonal inconsistencies throughout the film. Pointless characters. Very few interesting shots, if any. One of the worst editing jobs I’ve ever seen in a major motion picture. There was a cut seemingly every two seconds, even in the scenes that should be slowed down.

That doesn’t account for the cliche parts, and the fake looking CGI monsters and people.

There were a number of other problems, and also several strengths of the film. All in all it was mediocre–not good, not terrible, just another forgettable movie that most people will not care about in a few years time.

DuracellEnergizer said:
Active animosity, though? That leaves me scratching my head.

No animosity here. Critical of the film, yes. But I don’t hate it like I do TFA and the prequels. Animosity for Disney? Yes.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

I doubt I’ll ever understand Rogue One hate.

Some people will just blindly hate anything not the OT and make up believable reasons to justify their beliefs.

Though when people start taking those who have some legitimate gripes with the film that don’t exactly enjoy it all that much and group them in with the ‘haters’, that I’ll never understand.

What, a man builds a giant mound of dirt in his house and you aren’t entertained?

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OT fanboys go nuts when someone trashes their beloved ST.
PT fanboys go nuts when someone trashes, well, the PT.
Both sides refuse to accept that there’s any valid criticism of their films from the other side.
Both sides think the other side are complete morons blinded by nostalgia.
Both sides are still unable to comprehend that they’re exactly the same as the other side, just with different movie preferences.

What did Palpatine say? Ironic?

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 (Edited)

Anyone who uses the word “Palpatine” on an OT forum is already treading dangerous waters. 😉

There are things to criticize in the OT. They are not perfect films. I could list many things. However, they are exceptional and extraordinary films, so there’s not much use spending time criticizing movies that are overwhelmingly good and of historic value.

There are also things to criticize in the prequels and the Disney movies. None of them are perfect movies/films. I could list many complaints. However, they are, on the whole, not very good films at all, marred by incompetence, lack of skill, and lack of creativity. There is much value to be had in pondering and learning why things suck and did not strive to be or did not become something good and of historic value.

There is also great value to be had in pondering and learning why good things are good, and bad things are bad. But there is no value to be had in pondering over small imperfections in extraordinary things, nor is there much value to be had in pondering over mitigating aspects of spontaneous disasters. Those kinds of thoughts would just be a terrible waste of time.

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TESB (9.5/10)
ANH (9/10)
ROTJ/TFA (8/10)
RO (7/10)
TPM/ROTS (6.5/10)
AOTC (5/10)

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Alderaan said:

Anyone who uses the word “Palpatine” on an OT forum is already treading dangerous waters. 😉

There are things to criticize in the OT. They are not perfect films. I could list many things. However, they are exceptional and extraordinary films, so there’s not much use spending time criticizing movies that are overwhelmingly good and of historic value.

There are also things to criticize in the prequels and the Disney movies. None of them are perfect movies/films. I could list many complaints. However, they are, on the whole, not very good films at all, marred by incompetence, lack of skill, and lack of creativity. There is much value to be had in pondering and learning why things suck and did not strive to be or did not become something good and of historic value.

There is also great value to be had in pondering and learning why good things are good, and bad things are bad. But there is no value to be had in pondering over small imperfections in extraordinary things, nor is there much value to be had in pondering over mitigating aspects of spontaneous disasters. Those kinds of thoughts would just be a terrible waste of time.

I just don’t understand how anyone can hate TFA and call ROTJ an extraordinary film. I don’t think ROTJ is a great film, and neither is TFA. I can even understand why some would think one of them or both are just oke or dissappointing, even though I consider them both solid and entertaining films. IMO both films are flawed, in fact I believe they share many of the same flaws. Both films also have their own unique flaws and strengths, but I don’t see how any of these strengths or flaws would move ROTJ to the top of the ladder, and TFA to the bottom, or vice versa.

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Ryan-SWI said:

Handman said:

  1. Revenge of the Sith
  2. A New Hope
  3. The Phantom Menace
  4. The Empire Strikes Back
  5. Return of the Jedi
  6. The Force Awakens
  7. Attack of the Clones
  8. Rogue One

Why is Rogue One last out of curiosity?

That’s not actually my ranking. But I’ve mentioned my pet peeves with the film in question before.

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DrDre said:

I just don’t understand how anyone can hate TFA and call ROTJ an extraordinary film.

If we take George Lucas out of the picture, the other people who made Return of the Jedi were more talented and crafty at the various things they did compared to the people who made TFA. I can admire the pacing, the framing or blocking, the editing, the emotional conflict, the attention to detail, all of it, which I find nowhere present or nearly nowhere present in TFA. ROTJ’s script is also not a Frankenstein’s monster, amalgamated from the disparate ideas of creator, writer, director, several producers, a couple people in marketing, some other corporate suits at The Mouse, and that smelly guy over there. ROTJ tells a story, whereas TFA attempts to be an amusement park ride that whisks you by this and whisks you by that, a few moments at a time.

Yes, ROTJ is not as good a film as Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back–that I agree with. It’s main drawback is occasional tackiness and silliness. The quality of the production at Jabba’s palace was extremely uneven, to be kind–almost like a B-movie. And while I have no problem with many of the Ewok scenes, silly nonsense like the Ewok spinning around on the bike speeder, or cute teddy bears taking out elite soldiers with rocks and sticks … yeah, those are blemishes on an otherwise well conceived and well made movie.

But if George’s occasional nonsense and bad taste is what turns you off, how about I suggest going back and looking at the scenes that are a true work of art? Can you not watch Yoda’s death scene and admire how it was filmed? The craftsmanship that went into the puppet and its acting, the use of wide shots and very few cuts? What about the appropriate humor–which is pure Star Wars humor-that makes you chuckle in a wry and fond way? And then there is the mood: something the OT always got right was mood and atmosphere. Those films were allowed to breathe!

I recently saw someone posting on here about how they can’t stand to watch the middle section of Return of the Jedi, and all I could think about was the Shuttle Tydirium scene. Just admire the beauty and dramatic mood in the cross cutting between the heroes in the shuttle and villains on the command ship. Admire the subtext in the dialogue, where so much is said by the characters from what they allude to, and not so much with their words. A glance from Leia. It’s all there to behold.

None of these things were present in TFA. At a conceptual level, the film was a disgrace. It had no story to tell, and it had no vision, and it lacked unity of composition. At an execution level, the craftsmanship was sometimes good, usually not good, but not really incompetent. I think perfunctory would be an apt description, which seems par for the course for something that was just a safe and derivative cash grab.

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Alderaan said:

DrDre said:

I just don’t understand how anyone can hate TFA and call ROTJ an extraordinary film.

If we take George Lucas out of the picture, the other people who made Return of the Jedi were more talented and crafty at the various things they did compared to the people who made TFA. I can admire the pacing, the framing or blocking, the editing, the emotional conflict, the attention to detail, all of it, which I find nowhere present or nearly nowhere present in TFA. ROTJ’s script is also not a Frankenstein’s monster, amalgamated from the disparate ideas of creator, writer, director, several producers, a couple people in marketing, some other corporate suits at The Mouse, and that smelly guy over there. ROTJ tells a story, whereas TFA attempts to be an amusement park ride that whisks you by this and whisks you by that, a few moments at a time.

Really? ROTJ has a pretty weak story structure, primaraly preoccupied with tying up plot points of it’s superior predecessors. The resolution of the final conflict to a significant degree rests on one of the weakest reveals (both in terms of story and execution) in the the saga, that of Leia being Luke’s sister. Aside from a few impressive set peaces, it’s also visually rather uninspiring (not unlike TFA). The entire Darth Vader redemption angle, while well executed, also is just pulled out of thin air, as there’s literally nothing to indicate in any of the previous films, that Vader is anything but an evil monster. How about the fact that the rebels victory for a large part depends on a bunch of teddy bears defeating the Emperor’s “best troops”. ROTJ is crammed with dramatic short cuts, that stop it from being a great film.

Yes, ROTJ is not as good a film as Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back–that I agree with. It’s main drawback is occasional tackiness and silliness. The quality of the production at Jabba’s palace was extremely uneven, to be kind–almost like a B-movie. And while I have no problem with many of the Ewok scenes, silly nonsense like the Ewok spinning around on the bike speeder, or cute teddy bears taking out elite soldiers with rocks and sticks … yeah, those are blemishes on an otherwise well conceived and well made movie.

I would argue, that ROTJ manages to be more than the sum of it’s parts, which are decidedly uneven, and often uninspired mostly because of the great setup provided by it’s predecessors. The fact that it rises above it’s many issues, is mostly due to a well executed last act (specifically Luke/Vader/Emperor and the space battle).

But if George’s occasional nonsense and bad taste is what turns you off, how about I suggest going back and looking at the scenes that are a true work of art? Can you not watch Yoda’s death scene and admire how it was filmed? The craftsmanship that went into the puppet and its acting, the use of wide shots and very few cuts? What about the appropriate humor–which is pure Star Wars humor-that makes you chuckle in a wry and fond way? And then there is the mood: something the OT always got right was mood and atmosphere. Those films were allowed to breathe!

Sure, but at the same time the Yoda death (one of the most conviently timed deaths in movie history) is followed by the worst expository scenes in the OT, and one of the biggest cop outs in the saga. Also, while I appreciate how Yoda’s death scene was filmed (the Yoda sequence itself is another dramatic short-cut though, a case of ticking all the boxes provided by TESB), for me it pales in comparison to the visual splendor of Han Solo’s death scene in TFA. The sun that extinguishes at the exact moment, that Kylo Ren decides to murder his father.

None of these things were present in TFA. At a conceptual level, the film was a disgrace. It had no story to tell, and it had no vision, and it lacked unity of composition. At an execution level, the craftsmanship was sometimes good, usually not good, but not really incompetent. I think perfunctory would be an apt description, which seems par for the course for something that was just a safe and derivative cash grab.

I disagree. There were plenty of moments of great craftmanship in TFA, and simulateously there are plenty of examples of poor craftmanship (probably due to time constraints) in ROTJ. It always surprised me, that while ROTJ has some of the greatest visual effects in the OT, it also has some of the worst. The shot of the guy walking on Jabba’s sail barge, the matte painting when Han and Lando meet for the last time, the fake looking ewoks, the Emperor’s slugs, Darth Vader’s weird bended cut off hand, clearly showing the actor’s wrist.

IMO ROTJ is a very entertaining film with moments of greatness, as is TFA. However, ranking ROTJ far above TFA in my view can only be achieved by viewing ROTJ’s flaws through very rose tinted glasses. I would emotionally rank ROTJ above TFA for nostalgic reasons, not because I rationally believe it to be the better film.

TFA is derivative for sure. It is a soft reboot afterall. I can understand many disliking the concept. Personally, I can get behind it, and simply view it as this generation’s ANH. It repeats many of the OT’s story beats, while adding some new perspectives, and introducting a number of likable new characters.

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DrDre, thanks for your post. It’s nice to -discuss- Star Wars with Star Wars fans, even if we have differing opinions.

DrDre said:

Really? ROTJ has a pretty weak story structure, primeraly preoccupied with tying up plot points of it’s superior predecessors.

I think it does that quite well. I know you were comparing it with TFA, but look at R1 for an example of what NOT to do during the first act of a movie. Side characters there were given very little depth, and the camera keeps moving from planet to planet at breakneck speed. Even though none of those places were important, they all got undeserved superimposed titles, like we were watching the travel channel or something.

Return of the Jedi’s first act (like TFA’s I might add), was competently conceived. They have to assemble the cast, rescue Han, and go on to bigger and better things. Tight. Smartly done. And it all takes place in one setting. That’s unity of composition.

DrDre said:

The resolution of the final conflict to a significant degree rests on one of the weakest reveals (both in terms of story and execution) in the the saga, that of Leia being Luke’s sister.

I can’t really comment on this because I think it has to do with expectations. I don’t remember watching ROTJ without knowing the story–my first hundred viewings coming by the age of five. But I know some people who watched it in suspense and were fine with this plot point, and some who hate it, like you do. My guess is that people’s perception depended on what their expectation was, and it’s just not something I feel I can comment on any further.

DrDre said:

Aside from a few impressive set peaces, it’s also visually rather uninspiring (not unlike TFA).

I have to disagree with you here. Before I get into some shots that I love, I just want to comment on the visual flow of the film. Small things like transitions are so important to making a film flow this good. Right after the sail barge explodes, skiff is flying across the desert, and then there is a wipe to another shot of the Falcon and Luke’s X-wing flying into outer space. That’s flow, but then there’s more. The two ships are in the same shot, one goes one way, and the other veers off in another direction, and that’s just a great shot. Then after some dialogue, Luke’s ship is flying across the screen…more flow…and we finally end up on a spectacular shot of the TIE fighters falling into formation in front of The Emperor’s grand arrival. These few minutes are basically forgettable as far as the storyline is concerned, but wow, are they wonderfully conceived and executed, and they significantly enhance the flow of the film.

Anyway, onto some shots: how about the wide shots between Luke and Yoda in the hut? Such good filmmaking to have them side by side with no cuts back and forth, for so long. What about the camera angle on Vader when Luke passes by on his way to Endor? Even after the scene is basically finished, there is that one last shot of Vader staring out the window. Not a word is said, no action is taken, and yet the inclusion of that brief shot demonstrates Vader’s longing for a reunion and reconciliation (or reckoning) with his son. Again, the same idea is repeated after Luke’s surrender on Endor. After the confrontation, and after Luke is escorted away, and the scene is over, there is again that last lingering pan on Vader, as he wanders over to the window and stares out into his own thoughts.

So from those two examples, and the way Vader’s part was written and directed in the movie, and the way JEJ voice-acted him, I would very much disagree with you that Vader’s climactic action came out of nowhere. He spent the whole second movie looking for his son, carrying an entire armada into an asteroid field in pursuit of his friends. As I demonstrated, his thoughts were on Luke at every turn in ROTJ, and his glances back and forth between Luke and the Emperor during the lightning attack scene, tells the audience everything they need to know.

DrDre said:

The entire Darth Vader redemption angle, while well executed, also is just pulled out of thin air, as there’s literally nothing to indicate in any of the previous films, that Vader is anything but an evil monster.

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Alderaan said:

DrDre, thanks for your post. It’s nice to -discuss- Star Wars with Star Wars fans, even if we have differing opinions.

DrDre said:

Really? ROTJ has a pretty weak story structure, primeraly preoccupied with tying up plot points of it’s superior predecessors.

I think it does that quite well. I know you were comparing it with TFA, but look at R1 for an example of what NOT to do during the first act of a movie. Side characters there were given very little depth, and the camera keeps moving from planet to planet at breakneck speed. Even though none of those places were important, they all got undeserved superimposed titles, like we were watching the travel channel or something.

Return of the Jedi’s first act (like TFA’s I might add), was competently conceived. They have to assemble the cast, rescue Han, and go on to bigger and better things. Tight. Smartly done. And it all takes place in one setting. That’s unity of composition.

DrDre said:

The resolution of the final conflict to a significant degree rests on one of the weakest reveals (both in terms of story and execution) in the the saga, that of Leia being Luke’s sister.

I can’t really comment on this because I think it has to do with expectations. I don’t remember watching ROTJ without knowing the story–my first hundred viewings coming by the age of five. But I know some people who watched it in suspense and were fine with this plot point, and some who hate it, like you do. My guess is that people’s perception depended on what their expectation was, and it’s just not something I feel I can comment on any further.

DrDre said:

Aside from a few impressive set peaces, it’s also visually rather uninspiring (not unlike TFA).

I have to disagree with you here. Before I get into some shots that I love, I just want to comment on the visual flow of the film. Small things like transitions are so important to making a film flow this good. Right after the sail barge explodes, skiff is flying across the desert, and then there is a wipe to another shot of the Falcon and Luke’s X-wing flying into outer space. That’s flow, but then there’s more. The two ships are in the same shot, one goes one way, and the other veers off in another direction, and that’s just a great shot. Then after some dialogue, Luke’s ship is flying across the screen…more flow…and we finally end up on a spectacular shot of the TIE fighters falling into formation in front of The Emperor’s grand arrival. These few minutes are basically forgettable as far as the storyline is concerned, but wow, are they wonderfully conceived and executed, and they significantly enhance the flow of the film.

Anyway, onto some shots: how about the wide shots between Luke and Yoda in the hut? Such good filmmaking to have them side by side with no cuts back and forth, for so long. What about the camera angle on Vader when Luke passes by on his way to Endor? Even after the scene is basically finished, there is that one last shot of Vader staring out the window. Not a word is said, no action is taken, and yet the inclusion of that brief shot demonstrates Vader’s longing for a reunion and reconciliation (or reckoning) with his son. Again, the same idea is repeated after Luke’s surrender on Endor. After the confrontation, and after Luke is escorted away, and the scene is over, there is again that last lingering pan on Vader, as he wanders over to the window and stares out into his own thoughts.

So from those two examples, and the way Vader’s part was written and directed in the movie, and the way JEJ voice-acted him, I would very much disagree with you that Vader’s climactic action came out of nowhere. He spent the whole second movie looking for his son, carrying an entire armada into an asteroid field in pursuit of his friends. As I demonstrated, his thoughts were on Luke at every turn in ROTJ, and his glances back and forth between Luke and the Emperor during the lightning attack scene, tells the audience everything they need to know.

DrDre said:

The entire Darth Vader redemption angle, while well executed, also is just pulled out of thin air, as there’s literally nothing to indicate in any of the previous films, that Vader is anything but an evil monster.

Yes, it’s indeed very nice to discuss with other Star Wars fans. I would say, especially if we disagree with each other, because I think new perspectives generally are created more easily from disagreement, than agreement. So, thanks for your perspective 😃.

Let me first say, that despite some of my criticisms, I believe ROTJ contains some of the best scenes in the entire saga. My favourite being the brilliant silent contemplation of Vader as he watches his son being murdered by his master. The mood, camera angle, music all work wonders together.

My criticism of the first act of ROTJ is, that it doesn’t really advance the plot. It sort of plays as it’s own mini adventure. It’s entertaining as hell, and Jabba the Hutt to this day is movie making magic. The most disgusting peace of plastic put to film. However, as a part of the whole, it feels sort of disjointed. Here’s where I think TFA does better, as it manages to advance the plot, while successfully introducing a host of new characters. I personally feel TFA’s strongest part is the first act, and it’s final act, excluding the Starkiller Base, which is the movie’s Achilles heel.

I’m actually not arguing Vader’s action came out of nowhere. I think it worked very well in the context of the film. However, ROTJ for me is the first Star Wars film in the OT, that takes dramatic short cuts, and relies on the actor’s performances, and the individual scenes to compensate for this shortcoming. Two other examples:

  1. Yoda dies very conveniently as Luke delivers on his promise. While it is a dramatic short cut, the execution of the scene is so great, that it still works.

  2. It is revealed Luke and Leia are siblings. It is an another covenient twist, that diminishes the scope of the saga, a sort of precursor to Anakin building C-3PO, but the scene between Luke and Leia that follows is very well executed, and so it works in the end, allowing for a satisfactory conclusion to the Luke/Leia/Han love triangle.

I would argue, that the Han/Leia/Kylo story in TFA works in the same way. Their relationship is swiftly set up, and while it certainly isn’t as effective as the Luke/Vader interaction in ROTJ, it works for me, because of a strong performance by Harrison Ford and Adam Driver in their final meeting. To me it is a strong piece of film making, because aside from it’s visual splendor, that scene manages to convey a history between the characters, that’s nowhere to be seen in the rest of the film. Conversly, I felt the Leia/Han reunion felt forced, and didn’t really work, mostly because I felt Carrie Fisher was a little rusty and some weak dialogue, but was saved for me by the scene where the two characters embrace for the last time:

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Ryan-SWI said:

OT fanboys go nuts when someone trashes their beloved ST.

Either you made a typo or you are painting with an extremely broad brush.

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DrDre said:

TESB (9.5/10)
ANH (9/10)
ROTJ/TFA (8/10)
RO (7/10)
TPM/ROTS (6.5/10)
AOTC (5/10)

Basically you kinda like all of them. Lucky guy 😉

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chyron8472 said:

MalàStrana said:

Also, the release of the rest of the Sequel Trilogy might retroactively make TFA a better movie given added context.

Or make it even worse. If The Last Jedi is good, TFA will still be a very weak (and bad) entry. I’ll probably just skip it and watch The Last Jedi immediately afterwards Return of the Jedi.

I don’t see how you could expect The Last Jedi to be good.

I always have faith that something good can happen. I don’t judge in advance. 12 years ago I was very surprised by ROTS big jump in quality over AOTC, I might be as well next december.

I imagine you also don’t like the second half of Return of the Jedi.

I’ve put my ranking somewhere with a strong 8 (or 8.5 ?) to ROTJ, so I really like this movie… and the second half kicks ass. Besides I still think ROTS is a good SW flick while TPM is “decently mediocre”. As fanedited versions they are quite good movies I can easily enjoy in the context of a 6-part story (9-part story maybe ?).

So if the last Star Wars movie released that you thought was “good” from start to finish was probably The Empire Strikes Back,–given 6 successive irredeemably horrible failures to impress after that, I don’t see why you should even bother watching The Last Jedi at all.

In fact, R1 is the only one I dislike that much. I’ll watch it a second time when it’s officially available to be sure (I can change my mind, though I doubt it). First SW ever I was bored to death in the theater. Even AOTC is quite fun the first time you watch it. Even TFA was quite pleasant the first time as well. For some reason, R1 has deep issues in how to tell a story which make it - to me - the weakest SW to date. My review is somewhere on the proper topic where I explained that these issues are emphasized during both Darth Vader sequences (especially the second one). The way this movie was built around obvious fan-service and mythological deconstruction is very questionable. If you add weak characters into the mix (the only interesting one being killed ridiculously), it’s hard for me to find anything good about it.

So you’re wrong: 8 SW films, 3 great (among them 2 masterpieces, whatever the version/edition is), 1 good, 3 bad/mediocre but watchable and very decent when fanedited (well, except TFA which is still short of an edit I would agree at 99% with), and 1 I consider to be the worst (R1). I mostly like SW dude, like you 😃

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  1. STAR WARS - A NEW HOPE
  2. THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK
  3. THE PHANTOM MENACE
  4. RETURN OF THE JEDI
  5. THE FORCE AWAKENS
    6: ROGUE ONE
  6. REVENGE OF THE SITH
  7. ATTACK OF THE CLONES

WHAT HAVE I DONE?
The Ancient Lore
Kenobi: A Star Wars Story
Harry Potter Revisited
Game of Thrones Film Edits
Titanic Restructured
… and more.

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  1. Star Wars (1977)
  2. The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
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(I’m likely making a mistake expressing an unpopular view to OT purists on an OT biased site. Although I think I made a mistake when I registered.)
8.Attack of the CGI
7.The Force Awakens
(Leaps and bounds better)
6.Rogue One
5.Revenge of the Sith
(Here it comes)
4.A New Hope
3.The Phantom Menace
2.Return of the Jedi
1.The Empire Strikes Back

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Jesta’ said:

(I’m likely making a mistake expressing an unpopular view to OT purists on an OT biased site. Although I think I made a mistake when I registered.)
8.Attack of the CGI
7.The Force Awakens
(Leaps and bounds better)
6.Rogue One
5.Revenge of the Sith
(Here it comes)
4.A New Hope
3.The Phantom Menace
2.Return of the Jedi
1.The Empire Strikes Back

I’m more wondering why you started with your least favorite movie. Generally these lists start at 1.