Quote
Originally posted by: electrictroy
Quote
Originally posted by: Darth Simonyou object to the Yub Nub deleting because its a change in the scene. Wouldnt stuff like the intro to mos eisley be a change...or is that a CGI enhancement? Where does the line get drawn? Also, you said you dislike the missing Yub Nub song, but what about the rest of the changes to that scene, ie the celebrations in other cities, you said you liked these, or at least the toppling Emperor statue. What makes these more obvious visual changes acceptable but not an audio change
(1) Cleaning - Replacing models with CGI is equivalent to cleaning up the movie & erasing the squares from around the models. Same scene, but now it looks real, instead of fake.

i disagree, replacing is not the same as cleaning up. removing the matte lines around the tie fighters and removing the whole tie figher matte lines and all and replacing it with a digital tie fighter is to completely different things. plus cgi doesnt always make it look more real, many people find the unnatural brightness of cgi to look less real than real life models.

Quote
(2) Audio - I have no more desire to hear the original "flat" 2-channel stereo than I want to see fake-looking models w/ black squares around them. Go ahead and remix it for 5.1 surround.

thats you, i actually would like to hear the 'flat' 2 channel stereo, if only to see what it was like. the beauty of dvds is that both of those options could be on the disc too. because, yes i do like my 5.1 sound. so a remixed version of the sound would be great. but a remixed version that is still accurate to the original...not one that changes voices, rescores music, adds sound effects, drowns out the sound in certain parts, or reverses audio channels. I know there have been many different sound mixes of the movies, and everyone has the one that they first heard and consider to be the real sound mix. and it may be impossible to include all of those, but despite what you say there are problems with the current 5.1 sound mix. Im not saying i have anything against an all new sound mix, but include the original theatrical sound mix(es) because thats how the movie originally was. Would i like him to include the sound mix i remember? absolutely, do i realize that so does everyone else so this is very expensive/time consuming/maybe not possible to do? yes the theatrical mixes and a new 5.1 mix would be fine and doable.

Quote
(3) Subtraction - I hate subtraction. I don't like that Lucas took away songs that are burned into my skull (yub-nub & the original song in Jabba's Lair). It's like giving candy to a kid, and then taking it away. MEAN, and the part of the SE I don't like.

i can argue that removing the old special effects is the same thing, many people get enjoyment out of the 'at the time state of the art' special effects. why is it ok to take that away from them but not ok to remove Yup-Nub or Lapti Nek

Quote
(4) Changes - The added creatures wandering through Mos Eisley don't change the flow of the scene. We still have Luke & Obi-Wan asking for directions, same as always. The good stuff is still there.

as well as new stuff that wasnt part of the original movie, that does distract some people from the flow of the scene if only because its new and jarring and they can see its obvious cgi-ness

Quote
(5) Adding - The toppling emperor's statue and parties on distant worlds are added scenes. We still see Luke, Leia, et cetera celebrating their victory, same as always. The good stuff is still there.
Quote

but its not the same, because now its just some global celebration of the whole galaxy as apposed to the SMALL band of rebels who made a major victory. we connected with those characters...not some unknown/faceless 'extras' on a planet we never saw (except now with the PT) that would not have necessarily gotten word of the victory, let alone been able to open celebrate as there would still be stormtroopers loyal to the Empire.

Quote
NOW I HAVE QUESTIONS FOR YOU:
Ever read the books Tale of Two Cities or Oliver Twist or David Copperfield? Those are *not* the original versions. The original versions were published in newspapers for daily reading, and the books versions are "special editions" with re-worked story and re-writing. Do you think Charles Dickens' "special editions" of his books are as wrong as George Lucas' re-working of Star Wars?

Should Dickens' have left his books "as is" without changes, as originally published in the newspaper?

Why is it okay for book authors to make changes (Dickens/Twain/Bronte all made changes), but unacceptable for another author (Lucas)? Why the double standard?

troy

first off, nice use of bold, really emphasises the personal level of the arguement

have i read those books? no

do i think its wrong? depends, can i still go and read the original prints somewhere. if so no, its not wrong.

should he have left his books unchanged? yes and no, its his work, he can make changes, but yes, he should leave the originally published versions available for a) historical reasons b) people that may not like the changes he made because whether he likes it or not people will become attached to those original versions and reject his new versions even if there is no logical basis and the new versions really are with out a doubt, unarguably better...if only for the reason that thats not how they remember it.

why is it ok for books and not movies? where did i say that. looks like someone is putting words in my mouth...what did you call this? strawman arguement? it was you that was overusing this word in another thread wasnt it? (if not my apologies)

why the double standard? again, dont see the double standard as i didnt say it was ok for authors to do the same. and personally i dont have a problem with it as long as the other versions are available.

plus not all of Lucas' changes are reworked. Because of the medium he is presenting his work on changing an actor be it just their voice, or the actual replacement of that actor is more than a rewriting. Did Dickens' changes include changing the physical description of characters or areas? I dont know because as I said i havent read the books you mentioned. If they did though, were the changes because of plot points he made to better the story, or just cause he felt like giving joe shmoe blond hair instead of black.

Honestly, I think if all Lucas did was clean up the film and remove errors/matte lines and the like, there would be a lot less complaints about the changes. Yes im sure some people would still complain but I think some people would have been fine with it.

Plus, Lucas hides behind his 'I couldnt accomplish this with the technology available at the time' arguement which you have yourself quoted in defense of certain scenes (Jabba in ANH). But did technology prevent Greedo from shooting first? or using a younger actor at the end of jedi? or including the scenes from other planets? Better yet, did technology limit the actual story that Lucas could write for the novel versions, becase as we know there are 'scenes' in the novel that arent in the movies. But their are scenes in the SE's that arent in the novels. So if he really wanted to show the different planets back when he first made the story, he could have done so in the book, which, to my recollection, he didnt.

-Darth Simon