Yoda having a lightsaber completely shat on the OT Yoda character, which is yet another example of why the PT was so terrible. No one should grow up thinking Yoda with a lightsaber is normal.
I’m pretty sure that CPY never used a lightsaber?
He didn’t. It was faster to say “PT” than “AOTC and ROTS.”
I haven’t seen the prequels in almost a decade. I don’t plan on watching them ever again. Do I hate them? No, but I don’t find any real entertainment in them.
I think I’m getting past the point of hating them, because I just don’t watch them. Now I feel more embarrassed that they exist. Sure, people can enjoy them if that is their opinion and desire, but I cringe at the thought of all the stupid things in the PT.
I do get slightly annoyed when I think of the wasted potential that was the PT. But now I have Rogue One to be the one and only prequel I need.
Kellythatsit said:
I think you mean “I’ve been waiting for you Obi-Wan, we meet again at last.”Similar but different enough. I wouldn’t consider it fan service though, maybe an echo or a soft reference to the earlier duel.
If everything, a strange echo. Who would greet his father that way?
The whole kill the mentor thing was was quite a rehash of ANH’s moment, with the major flaw of a more dramatic scenario for a far less important moment (Jedi Anakin Skywalker, known as Darth Vader, responsible for the destruction of the Jedi Order and the implementation of a galaxy-wide tyranny meets his former friend and master Jedi General and hero of the Clone Wars Obi Wan Kenobi in a random fluorescent-lighted corridor in the Death Star vs. unknown Ben Solo kills his famous yet-muggle father based on an unexplained resentment due to the orders of an unexplained supreme leader in an expressionist bridge in the middle of an unexplained abysss which has a single stream of light that baths the character that is supposed to be good while the rest is in darkness. As much as a videogame scenario as mustafar, actually.
I’d say the Solo matchup is far more emotionally investing than the master/apprentice one.
Kellythatsit said:
I really can’t believe that people are defending the prequels as decent watchable movies on this thread.It’s as if people have opinions that are different than yours. Woah!
Thank god someone reminded him this.
Hands down, my biggest issue with our forum is how much people get disrespected for not agreeing with a certain opinion. If someone hates Rogue One, they get bashed. I loved it, but don’t give a crap if someone else hates it. I discuss it with them to understand why they disliked it, which results in a civil and respectful discussion.
And the hate that prequel lovers get is ridiculous. I think episodes 1 and 2 are god awful films that will make most humans cringe every other scene. But I have no issue with someone liking or loving them. I just hope we can all quit the bashing of the people who like the new Disney movies and quit with the bashing of prequel lovers. We should create a forum where everyone’s opinion is respected and not throw a hissy fit whenever someone disagrees with you.
Sorry for the rant but I’m fed up with seeing this sort of behavior in so many threads.
I see your point, but you do have to admit that the prequels are objectively bad and the other films objectively are not.
The PT plus the treatment of the OT put me off Star Wars in a big way. I stopped watching any Star Wars completely such was my frustration (yet still saw myself as a fan). Then my two sons found some of my old toys in the garage and they began asking questions.
I was trying to figure out how best to introduce them to the movies when someone gave me a copy of the first few seasons of Clone Wars. I was sceptical and it took me a while to actually sit down and watch an episode. When I did I actually enjoyed them. It was what I had wanted from the prequels but never got. As the series went on I found that I was beginning to love Star Wars again.
Because of that series I can now watch the PT without feeling frustrated at the missed opportunity. Because of harmy I’ve been able to show my boys the OUT.
Unfortunately, a friend of theirs recently showed them the 2004 DVD Special Edition.
They now prefer that version.
That friend has been banned from my house.
Time to disown the kids. So sorry for your loss.
Kellythatsit said:
I think you mean “I’ve been waiting for you Obi-Wan, we meet again at last.”Similar but different enough. I wouldn’t consider it fan service though, maybe an echo or a soft reference to the earlier duel.
If everything, a strange echo. Who would greet his father that way?
That’s the point I think. Kylo Ren doesn’t see him as his father any more.
The whole kill the mentor thing was was quite a rehash of ANH’s moment, with the major flaw of a more dramatic scenario for a far less important moment (Jedi Anakin Skywalker, known as Darth Vader, responsible for the destruction of the Jedi Order and the implementation of a galaxy-wide tyranny meets his former friend and master Jedi General and hero of the Clone Wars Obi Wan Kenobi in a random fluorescent-lighted corridor in the Death Star vs. unknown Ben Solo kills his famous yet-muggle father based on an unexplained resentment due to the orders of an unexplained supreme leader in an expressionist bridge in the middle of an unexplained abysss which has a single stream of light that baths the character that is supposed to be good while the rest is in darkness. As much as a videogame scenario as mustafar, actually.
To be fair though you’d have to agree that when we first saw it, the initial duel between Vader and Obi-Wan had barely any of the weight you are loading it with now. In 1977 we didn’t know that Vader was Anakin. All we knew was from a short conversation earlier in the movie. Vader was once Obi-Wan’s pupil, he killed Luke’s father, he helped hunt down the Jedi. Obi-Wan was once a Jedi knight, he fought in the clone wars and he was friends with Luke’s father. That’s it. Vader’s motivations are still largely unknown, Ben’s history is largely unknown.
To say that the latter scene is simply a rehash is to completely misunderstand the scene entirely. Not only is it a pivotal moment for Kylo Ren’s character it also creates gravitas and a tragic depth that was not present after Kenobi’s death.
The death of the mentor character does seem to be a continuing device in each of the trilogies. Each of them though are significant, course changing moments. To simply highlight one as a rehash or some kind of fan service seems wilfully dismissive.
Time to disown the kids. So sorry for your loss.
I know but the missus wants to keep them.
Priorities I say 😉
Who is CPY?
Yoda told Luke “your weapons, you will not need them” when he entered the cave.
He tells him that what he will find in the cave is only what he takes with him. That’s why he told him not to take it. If he takes fear and aggression into the cave, that is what he will find. It had nothing to do with being a pacifist.
Kellythatsit said:
To simply highlight one as a rehash or some kind of fan service seems wilfully dismissive.
Well, it absolutely is wilfully dismissive towards the movie. I don’t have anything at all with people who rightfully enjoy it though.
Take TPM, compare it to SW and you can see two totally different approaches of a mentor’s death. Old sworn-to-death enemies meet again for a last time, with one sacrificing himself and helmeted one not repenting at all vs random unrelated evil guys just beats the mentor due to better skills. Fact is, both mentors die, that’s what moves the plot forward from a certain point of view that thinks of joseph cambell as an ultimate guide and sole man on earth to have thought and synthetized myths
Yet, TFA’s confrontation…it is and feels like a rehash to me. I just don’t buy characters actually believing their own self-explanatory lies.
I find the whole “anakin skywalker is dead” to be ridiculous. It is and has always been supposed to be a metaphora. Vader says I am your father. He has always recognized himself as Anakin Skywalker. From there on, it’s easy to guess how that whole thing about Han “not being his father anymore” just sounds to me. He hates him/looks for him/wants/needs to kill him /because he is his father/. The rest is just shit the characters say, but not stuff we are supposed to believe as viewers.
In SW77 there were lots of implications that the duel was important. Vader anounces it to Tarkin. Leia implies Obi Wan as a great warrior. Vader himself states we meet again at last. But it just happens anywhere, wherever they just happen to meet.
ESB, Vader set up a trap and prepared the place.
In TFA, however, they apparently meet randomly in that casually particular location…What I tried to say is that there was a strange sense of matter-of-factness in Star Wars 77 that just got lost after ESB’s reveal, only to be recovered perhaps by Rogue One at some point: great feats just can happen anywhere to almost anyone. That’s some kind of a nice spirit for a fairy tale movie. The rest is just the desperate need of cool epic epicness milenials want over everything just because they more and more seem unable to process information that isn’t underlined by context.
Kellythatsit said:
To simply highlight one as a rehash or some kind of fan service seems wilfully dismissive.I find the whole “anakin skywalker is dead” to be ridiculous. It is and has always been supposed to be a metaphora. Vader says I am your father. He has always recognized himself as Anakin Skywalker.
Hmmm … Return of the Jedi?
Luke: I have accepted that you were once a Jedi named Anakin Skywalker, my father.
Darth Vader: That name no longer has any meaning for me!
Rogue One is redundant. Just play the first mission of DARK FORCES.
The hallmark of a corrupt leader: Being surrounded by yes men.
‘The best visual effects in the world will not compensate for a story told badly.’ - V.E.S.
‘Star Wars is a buffet, enjoy the stuff you want, and leave the rest.’ - SilverWook
The only that scene would ever really be a rehash is if Kylo and Han got in a lightsaber duel and/or Han sacrificed himself. As it stands the scene being conversation based adds a new elements that isn’t really in STAR WARS. Sure Ben and Vader talked but it was mostly taunting whereas Ben and Han actually had a conversation. Also the mindset if the characters is quite different. Vader has no qualms about killing ben while Kylo is conflicted. Ben has given up hope on Vader whereas Han still has hope his Son could go back to the side of decency and that even though his son has done terrible things his actions can be rectified.
The scene is only a rehash is you ignore certain details.
Who is CPY?
Yoda told Luke “your weapons, you will not need them” when he entered the cave.
He tells him that what he will find in the cave is only what he takes with him. That’s why he told him not to take it. If he takes fear and aggression into the cave, that is what he will find. It had nothing to do with being a pacifist.
Irrelevant because he doesn’t use a lightsaber in the entire OT. He doesn’t even fight in the OT. He’s on death’s doorstep. And yet somehow, 20 years ealier (a blink of an eye in his lifespan), he’s using a lightsaber and jumping around like Daffy Duck. That’s not the Yoda character that appeared in the OT.
At least he’s not fighting in TPM, but only because Lucas temporarily stuck with a puppet for one more movie.
Who is CPY?
Yoda told Luke “your weapons, you will not need them” when he entered the cave.
He tells him that what he will find in the cave is only what he takes with him. That’s why he told him not to take it. If he takes fear and aggression into the cave, that is what he will find. It had nothing to do with being a pacifist.
Irrelevant because he doesn’t use a lightsaber in the entire OT. He doesn’t even fight in the OT. He’s on death’s doorstep. And yet somehow, 20 years ealier (a blink of an eye in his lifespan), he’s using a lightsaber and jumping around like Daffy Duck. That’s not the Yoda character that appeared in the OT.
At least he’s not fighting in TPM, but only because Lucas temporarily stuck with a puppet for one more movie.
That wasn’t the point I was making. The reason he told Luke that was because of the nature of the cave, not because of something about Yoda the character.
Kellythatsit said:
To simply highlight one as a rehash or some kind of fan service seems wilfully dismissive.I find the whole “anakin skywalker is dead” to be ridiculous. It is and has always been supposed to be a metaphora. Vader says I am your father. He has always recognized himself as Anakin Skywalker.
Hmmm … Return of the Jedi?
Luke: I have accepted that you were once a Jedi named Anakin Skywalker, my father.
Darth Vader: That name no longer has any meaning for me!
He calls Luke son countless times in ROTJ, too. He never denies being the same persona as Anakin Skywalker. He calls ObiWan, ObiWan, his son, son, his wife by his name; even the emperor refers to him as “my old friend”.
Anakin being dead is just a symbolic statement, not only in the movie, but within the character as well.
Basing the difference between the long anticipated duel between two known-to-each-other people in which the quiet helmeted bad guy kills the peaceful mentor who is willing to give his life after calling him by his name and stating to have been looking forward to that moment in details enables me to say that Elementary is not a rehash of BBC’s Sherlock, that Netflix’s House of Cards is a totally different and novel-approached series than old british HoC; even that essentially The Hunchback of Notre Dame would be a totally different movie than the hypothetical Hunchback of New York as much as Disney’s Lion King is nothing at all like Hamlet
The comparisons are surface level, though. The differences are what ultimately matter the most.
I disagree both particularly and generally with that statement.
The prequels are bad, because they have made us look for problems everywhere. They set a bad precedent for how star wars fans should behave.
How do you account for the differences both big and small between the two scenes?
EDIT:
I’m also curious as to your opinion on the Rey interrogation scene and how similar it is to Leia’s interrogation scene.
I disagree both particularly and generally with that statement.
I could go in depth as to why I feel that way but I suppose this is where we say “agree to disagree.”
The prequels are bad independent of the quality of TFA.
Kellythatsit said:
I really can’t believe that people are defending the prequels as decent watchable movies on this thread.It’s as if people have opinions that are different than yours. Woah!
Thank god someone reminded him this.
Hands down, my biggest issue with our forum is how much people get disrespected for not agreeing with a certain opinion. If someone hates Rogue One, they get bashed. I loved it, but don’t give a crap if someone else hates it. I discuss it with them to understand why they disliked it, which results in a civil and respectful discussion.
And the hate that prequel lovers get is ridiculous. I think episodes 1 and 2 are god awful films that will make most humans cringe every other scene. But I have no issue with someone liking or loving them. I just hope we can all quit the bashing of the people who like the new Disney movies and quit with the bashing of prequel lovers. We should create a forum where everyone’s opinion is respected and not throw a hissy fit whenever someone disagrees with you.
Sorry for the rant but I’m fed up with seeing this sort of behavior in so many threads.
I see your point, but you do have to admit that the prequels are objectively bad and the other films objectively are not.
There’s a huge problem assuming that there is an objective way of grading movies. An objective scientific fact measures something that is absolutely correct for all people.
For example, Apples fall when dropped from your hand on earth. They fall at a rate of 9.81 m/s^2. But with movies, if they are also objective, then that would mean that there is a definitive grade for every movie. A definitive, universally correct scale as to measure the merit of every film. Who decides this grade? What does that mean for the value of other opinions?
Bottom line is…most people do accept that certain things make a movie great. Such as good characters, good story and well written dialogue. But what people consider to be good characters and story differs so much between each person and each movie for an individual. Everybody goes in with different things they want from a movie. So obviously, they experience the film a different way. None of them are wrong. They simply disagree. I’m with you on the prequels. Most people actually are. But there is no such thing as an objective measurement of how good a movie is that applies to everyone. That’s the key thing.
This bullet is an old one.
In 1897, it was fired at the president of Uruguay by a young man from Montevideo, Arredondo, who had spent long weeks without seeing anyone so that the world might know that he acted alone. Thirty years earlier, Lincoln had been murdered by that same ball, by the criminal or magical hand of an actor transformed by the words of Shakespeare into Marcus Brutus, Caesar’s murderer. In the mid-seventeenth century, vengeance had employed it for the assassination of Sweden’s Gustavus Adolphus in the midst of the public hecatomb of battle.
In earlier times, the bullet had been other things, because Pythagorean metempsychosis is not reserved for humankind alone. It was the silken cord given to viziers in the East, the rifles and bayonets that cut down the defenders of the Alamo, the triangular blade that slit a queen’s throat, the wood of the Cross and the dark nails that pierced the flesh of the Redeemer, the poison kept by the Carthaginian chief in an iron ring on his finger, the serene goblet that Socarates drank down one evening.
In the dawn of time it was the stone that Cain hurled at Abel, and in the future it shall be many things that we cannot even imagine today, but that will be able to put an end to men and their wondrous, fragile life.
*J L Borges (1899-1986) In Memoriam J.F.K. *
Just found this eloquent.
Provided that what happens in both scenes is essentially the same plot device, and very similar in its features, all you can have to be different, in order not to upset most of people is location, illumination, characters… perhaps even motivations. Summing up details. Both scenes are different in only in details, at least to me.
What feels somewhat wrong is that having those characters and their motivations be different (these are details, because the main thing is that the character’s roles are exactly the same), the dialogue remains way too similar, and the thing that changes, which is the location, does so in an diametrically opposite way to what I would have expected. A patricide, if anything, is too much of an intimate crime, more akin to a small-scale set than to a monumental location (which would have fit better ObiWan vs Vader, had I to choose).
That’s where it began, before I just deviated from topic.
EDIT: The interrogation scene didn’t bother me much. While obviously these are personal impressions, had I to give one not-so-subjective justification, I’d say that Rey’s role in TFA is SW’s Luke, not Leia.
The prequels are bad, because they have made us look for problems everywhere. They set a bad precedent for how star wars fans should behave.
I put most of that on Lucas, not the films themselves. Had he only made the bad films, the two camps may have been less venomous. Still divided perhaps, but possibly more along generational lines or style preferences. Instead, Lucas set about dividing the fans into teams with all of his CGI revisions and lying about the 1970s.
He created the division where you either like the real Star Wars or you like the 1977 theatrical Star Wars. For deep fans of the prequels, that was license to criticize the fans who were liking Star Wars incorrectly. He created that fire and continued to add fuel to it until he jumped ship and left the huge mess behind.