Rogue One * Spoilers * Thread — Page 89

Handman said:

luckydube56 said:

Handman said:

luckydube56 said:

Conversely in R1, Vader could simply not levitate the rebel in that corridor. But even more logically consistent would be if he was slow and plodding and actually got hit a few times given that he’s not quite what he once was. But that wouldn’t quite make Vader as menacing as his reputation suggested he was.

Both solutions are far more logical and would allow the films to ‘sync up’ better. But would make each scene individually not as good.

That’s pretty much what I was asking for, and since I didn’t really think the scene was that good to begin with, it doesn’t really bother me. I feel like it could be better executed to still make Vader menacing without looking like a video game and Vader-worship.

Ok well…to each his own. I will say that of all things, that scene was the most pleasurable bit of fan service in the entire film. The fans got to see the Vader they imagined after having seen Ep4. Now it doesnt quite jibe with what we come to learn in subsequent films but it was fun to watch. I enjoy being serviced. But only when it is done well. In 2 films now under Disney there have been many examples of blatant fan servicing but this one worked better than most all others. Just my opinion.

I respect your opinion, and I find it funny that every reason you stated for liking it is the exact reasons I didn’t like it. You actually said it better than me. So I appreciate that, you helped me actually figure out what it specifically was I didn’t like about it. I also apologize for the use of the phrase “Vader-worship”, I think I saw it tossed around earlier in the thread and decided to use it, but it probably came across as a bit stand-offish.

All is well. We are all fans with our own opinions and head strong notions of what these films should be.

luckydube56 said:

Fans too often attempt to make the individual films integrate perfectly with each other and identify what they consider bugs in the plot or with technicalities.

Sure…if Vader can just lift bodies in the air like in Rogue One, why didnt he simply lift Luke as he attempted to fall into Cloud City’s central chasm?

A alternate Version of the scene where Vader tell’s Luke I am your father. When he refuses to join him he choked him Forced lifted him up in the air and threw him down the chasm. That was a version though that never made it in the film.

But you can see Vader with his hand high up in the air (Lifting Luke) in one of the trailers and slamming it down. Which would have been the force throw down that Wind tunnel.

He may not have been Luke’s Dad in that version though. There’s art for Luke being Lifted up also.

I think If you’ve got a twitchy eye no leg’s and a pair of iron lungs like Saw then you definitely had a brush with Vader.

Handman said:

Hi again, first chance to chime in about Vader again despite the topic having kind of shifted from that. So if that’s an issue I apologize.

In regards to the Bespin duel in ESB, comparing that to Vader going apeshit isn’t really the same. There’s so much context to that duel, so much feeling, so much shifting motivations, how Vader just toys with Luke for awhile and then goes all out by the end that it’s not even a fair comparison.

That’s not the point of the comparison. The point of the comparison is to prove Vader can be brutish sometimes. You’re looking too deep into it.

In the new one, he just goes apeshit to a level only seen in something like The Force Unleashed

Starkiller was turning people into ash and crushing AT-ST’s with the Force so no.

and it’s the only time he pulls out a lightsaber for anyone not wielding the same, calling to question numerous times he could have done so in the original films.

Well, I’ve been calling this into question for years so this seems more like a personal problem.

The end of ESB shows Vader does have limitations, Luke was still incredibly inexperienced, why couldn’t Vader just lift him up at any point like he does the Rebels? Why does Vader suddenly seem so much more limitless in what he’s capable of doing with the Force in Rogue One and come across as sort of a putz in the original by comparison? His line in ESB, “Bring my shuttle”, shows just how much rage he was just trying to keep in after having his plans foiled. That’s not the same kind of guy who would just go apeshit to no-name rebels.

For one, Vader was facing against regular beings and not Force Sensitives. Secondly, he seemed just as imposing in ESB especially considering that Luke was a somewhat trained Force sensitive

In this way, the use of Tarkin was much more faithful to the character, he never does anything we wouldn’t expect him to. But Vader has changed from all the video games and the prequel films reframing his character since the OT that it somehow influenced how he is portrayed right before the events of the original film. It doesn’t mesh. Why would he be okay with sending in the troops onto the Tantive later on when he could just deal with them himself much more effectively? Why wouldn’t he use more effective means to torture the rebel commander on the ship, instead of accidentally kill him clumsily?

We should have gotten a scene like this in the OT. I don’t think Rogue One should be scolded for the OT’s mistakes. Also isn’t it a little more than implausible to assume Vader has never done something like this before?

Lord Haseo said:

Handman said:

Hi again, first chance to chime in about Vader again despite the topic having kind of shifted from that. So if that’s an issue I apologize.

In regards to the Bespin duel in ESB, comparing that to Vader going apeshit isn’t really the same. There’s so much context to that duel, so much feeling, so much shifting motivations, how Vader just toys with Luke for awhile and then goes all out by the end that it’s not even a fair comparison.

That’s not the point of the comparison. The point of the comparison is to prove Vader can be brutish sometimes. You’re looking too deep into it.

My point was that it’s not the same. Glad I’m able to look too deep into things.

In the new one, he just goes apeshit to a level only seen in something like The Force Unleashed

Starkiller was turning people into ash and crushing AT-ST’s with the Force so no.

It still looked like a video game, and might as well have been as ridiculous.

and it’s the only time he pulls out a lightsaber for anyone not wielding the same, calling to question numerous times he could have done so in the original films.

Well, I’ve been calling this into question for years so this seems more like a personal problem.

It’s entirely a personal problem, it’s my opinion isn’t it? 😛

The end of ESB shows Vader does have limitations, Luke was still incredibly inexperienced, why couldn’t Vader just lift him up at any point like he does the Rebels? Why does Vader suddenly seem so much more limitless in what he’s capable of doing with the Force in Rogue One and come across as sort of a putz in the original by comparison? His line in ESB, “Bring my shuttle”, shows just how much rage he was just trying to keep in after having his plans foiled. That’s not the same kind of guy who would just go apeshit to no-name rebels.

For one, Vader was facing against regular beings and not Force Sensitives. Secondly, he seemed just as imposing in ESB especially considering that Luke was a somewhat trained Force sensitive

The execution in Rogue One was still ridiculous, you can read my responses to luckydube56 for more on why that is.

In this way, the use of Tarkin was much more faithful to the character, he never does anything we wouldn’t expect him to. But Vader has changed from all the video games and the prequel films reframing his character since the OT that it somehow influenced how he is portrayed right before the events of the original film. It doesn’t mesh. Why would he be okay with sending in the troops onto the Tantive later on when he could just deal with them himself much more effectively? Why wouldn’t he use more effective means to torture the rebel commander on the ship, instead of accidentally kill him clumsily?

We should have gotten a scene like this in the OT. I don’t think Rogue One should be scolded for the OT’s mistakes. Also isn’t it a little more than implausible to assume Vader has never done something like this before?

I think DominicCobb said the same thing, but I wouldn’t call it an OT mistake and more Rogue One not doing enough to mesh with Vader’s portrayal there.

Anyway, most everything I had to say about it has already been said in the following posts. What did you think of those?

In the end the movie would have worked just as well without Vader, and for me personally, it would have benefited from it.

Handman said:

Lord Haseo said:

Handman said:

Hi again, first chance to chime in about Vader again despite the topic having kind of shifted from that. So if that’s an issue I apologize.

In regards to the Bespin duel in ESB, comparing that to Vader going apeshit isn’t really the same. There’s so much context to that duel, so much feeling, so much shifting motivations, how Vader just toys with Luke for awhile and then goes all out by the end that it’s not even a fair comparison.

That’s not the point of the comparison. The point of the comparison is to prove Vader can be brutish sometimes. You’re looking too deep into it.

My point was that it’s not the same. Glad I’m able to look too deep into things.

It’s always good to look deep but in the context of the conversation it’s no more complex than the fact that Vader gets down when he deems it necessary.

In the new one, he just goes apeshit to a level only seen in something like The Force Unleashed

Starkiller was turning people into ash and crushing AT-ST’s with the Force so no.

It still looked like a video game, and might as well have been as ridiculous.

To say that is to say that any Force Based action scene is like a video game. A claim that is kind of true but he hasn’t showcased anything in that scene that we haven’t seen. We’ve seen Luke use blast deflection so it’s obvious that a master of the lightsaber like Darth Vader would know how to use blast deflection as well. We’ve seen people be cut down by lightsabers in every film and have seen Vader do it to more than a few people. We have seen him Force choke, Force pull blasters away from people and while we didn’t see Vader Force push people in the OT (which is another thing that is missing in the OT) doesn’t mean we haven’t seen other Force Sensitives ragdoll people before. So exactly what is so off or video gamey about this? This seems pretty par for the course and generic on paper but the way the scene was shot is what gives the scene it’s umph. Also let’s not forget that the Rebels were dead as soon as Vader Force pulled their blasters away which is something he did relatively early into his slaughter.

and it’s the only time he pulls out a lightsaber for anyone not wielding the same, calling to question numerous times he could have done so in the original films.

Well, I’ve been calling this into question for years so this seems more like a personal problem.

It’s entirely a personal problem, it’s my opinion isn’t it? 😛

It is but I was speaking more about you not noticing or caring that Vader didn’t kill any Rebels with his lightsaber and Force Abilities in the OT.

In this way, the use of Tarkin was much more faithful to the character, he never does anything we wouldn’t expect him to. But Vader has changed from all the video games and the prequel films reframing his character since the OT that it somehow influenced how he is portrayed right before the events of the original film. It doesn’t mesh. Why would he be okay with sending in the troops onto the Tantive later on when he could just deal with them himself much more effectively? Why wouldn’t he use more effective means to torture the rebel commander on the ship, instead of accidentally kill him clumsily?

We should have gotten a scene like this in the OT. I don’t think Rogue One should be scolded for the OT’s mistakes. Also isn’t it a little more than implausible to assume Vader has never done something like this before?

I think DominicCobb said the same thing, but I wouldn’t call it an OT mistake and more Rogue One not doing enough to mesh with Vader’s portrayal there.

One film shouldn’t have to be contorted for leaps in logic or things being missing in the other one. Just like how the OT shouldn’t have been changed for the sake of the PT.

Anyway, most everything I had to say about it has already been said in the following posts. What did you think of those?

This is stuff I’ve all heard before the main point of contention is already being discussed in our chain of comments. That being how the temperaments of these two Vader’s are supposedly different.

In the end the movie would have worked just as well without Vader, and for me personally, it would have benefited from it.

It would have worked fine without Vader; it just works better with him as writing him out of the film at such a time would have been weird. Vader wouldn’t have that much to do given the Great Jedi Purge was complete in their eyes and having him MIA during such a pivotal time could seemed contrived. I suppose you could have built up that Vader was coming and right as he arrives the Rebels get the plans and escape about that would have been a massive tease. After TFA’s ending that would have been brutal.

I believe all these issues about the hallway scene are all to do with context.

People say why didn’t Vader do all these brutish or powerful things with Luke? Simple, respect, of course: He wanted Luke to feel challenged, he didn’t want to humiliate his son, he wanted to tempt him.

Why didn’t Vader cut down everyone on Hoth? They had already lost, he was there to pick up the pieces.

We do not know the original context of the Tantive IV in Star Wars. We do know it was being chased by a Star Destroyer, with RO now concrete, we have a context. Leia claiming to know nothing has always been obvious stalling. If they were in no trouble why were they having a shootout with the Empire and not cooperating, now it’s just even more obvious now we know they came direct from the battle.

But he did act brutish towards…I give up.

Handman you just don’t get it! The point of the comparison is that The Force Awakens is better than every other Star Wars movie. The tradition of stating the original and Empire are the best is too ingrained in our culture, that we all feel compelled to ritualistically acknowledge they are the best and the The Force Awakens is right behind them, but really, deep down in our hearts, we all know the Force Awakens is the greatest movie of all time!!!

We’re trying to have a discussion about Star Wars here. If you want to argue take it to Off Topic.

Who’s arguing? I’m just professing my love for bright shiny objects!

No one is arguing because I refuse to let you suck me in. We just got done getting into it yesterday so why not do something different and actually discuss Star Wars?

Alderaan said:

Handman you just don’t get it! The point of the comparison is that The Force Awakens is better than every other Star Wars movie. The tradition of stating the original and Empire are the best is too ingrained in our culture, that we all feel compelled to ritualistically acknowledge they are the best and the The Force Awakens is right behind them, but really, deep down in our hearts, we all know the Force Awakens is the greatest movie of all time!!!

There’s a thread in off topic about praising another poster. A day or two ago I praised you for being much more reasonable now than when TFA came out.

I now regret my foolish post in that thread.

TV’s Frink said:

Alderaan said:

Handman you just don’t get it! The point of the comparison is that The Force Awakens is better than every other Star Wars movie. The tradition of stating the original and Empire are the best is too ingrained in our culture, that we all feel compelled to ritualistically acknowledge they are the best and the The Force Awakens is right behind them, but really, deep down in our hearts, we all know the Force Awakens is the greatest movie of all time!!!

There’s a thread in off topic about praising another poster. A day or two ago I praised you for being much more reasonable now than when TFA came out.

I now regret my foolish post in that thread.

I don’t know what you want. I’ve always been a mediocre poster, but I do have good taste.

I want you to not suddenly start ripping TFA in a Rogue One thread, but clearly I was fooled into thinking you had become more reasonable.

I think you misinterpreted my post. I was simply trying to mediate the discussion between Handman and Hasbro…

…in Handman’s favor!

Alderaan said:

I think you misinterpreted my post. I was simply trying to mediate the discussion between Handman and Hasbro…

…in Handman’s favor!

Yeah, you haven’t changed a bit. Oh well.

I think you take yourself way too seriously.

In all seriousness(!) though, I like the last scene in Rogue One. But it could have been shorter. I think dragging it out as long as it did contributed to the Vader Unleashed effect that Handman is talking about. Sharper editing probably would have made all the difference.

This is fun
http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-worst-rogue-one-takes-on-t-1790441878

I actually don’t think the substance—that more Star Wars movies should explore things further away from the original trilogy—is that bad. I would, however, like to burn to the ground the use of “fan fiction” as a slur.

Yep. Also “fan film” and “fan service.”

I am surprised that only one point I had against the film has been the focus here. The main sin Rogue One commits is that it’s just boring to me.

Fan film and fan service, etc., are slurs only in the case of a huge feature film. We generally expect different things from something from a fan than from filmmakers. It goes along the same line of thinking where in response to people saying the Despecialized Editions should be official, Harmy saying he’d be outraged. Because he expects better.

Well, the worst aspects of fan films are usually bad cinematography, editing, vfx, acting, and writing. Rogue One has all of those. What makes it like a fan film is the subject matter, to which I would say who cares.

Handman said:

I am surprised that only one point I had against the film has been the focus here. The main sin Rogue One commits is that it’s just boring to me.

That’s much more subjective, so there’s not really much to argue.