thebluefrog

Darth Retcon said:

thebluefrog said:

SparkySywer said:

It’s unprofessional but I can’t exactly blame him. I don’t mean to imply all criticism of this movie is invalid, because I don’t believe that. But so much criticism of this movie is absolutely brain-dead (be honest, yes it is), especially at the time. This person specifically is obviously not exactly a deep thinker and it’s hard to imagine this person would be acting in good faith if Rian Johnson had.

He was acting in good faith in the last quoted part, Rian still kept screaming about his dick. Would you respect a 50 year old man screaming that, even if “justified” because some 20 year old insulted his writing?

Really, though, that’s not the point; it’s still embarrassing and childish regardless of circumstance. There were many other examples; it would just take a lot of inordinate amount of effort and time to dig through his long-deleted tantrums. Disney definitely clamped down on him fast.

It appears Rian Johnson didn’t delete that tweet you posted: https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1124530820692283392 and I doubt Disney made him delete any tweets at all, let alone “making” him delete tweets 2 years after his film’s release. That’s not “Disney definitely clamping down on him fast”.

It is a little weird that the guy who posted the tweets to Rian later deleted them all, and has since been banned from twitter.

I’d be interested in seeing more of these “many other examples” of Rian Johnson’s twitter “tantrums” about fans not liking TLJ. When you say “regardless of circumstance”, don’t ignore or forget to also include any of the death threats the toxic “fans” sent to him, of where “fans” on one of the more poisonous reddits announced his death. Was that May 4th too? I think it was? Maybe not. Or where people tweeted him that he worse than Hitler.

Rian Johnson doesn’t come off well in that tweet you posted. But I don’t know the context of it, others in that thread seem to be think RJ was “shitposting” or simply “owning” that kevin guy. Given the amount of vile and way of the top shit thrown his way over the years for making a film some people didn’t like, I’ll give him a pass for being a bit sharp to someone who is now banned from twitter for whatever reason.

I’ve no love for TLJ either, other than it looking stunning and was at least an attempt to move Star Wars forward to take risks, but the hatred, threats and shit he received was way over any acceptable critical “norm”.

Sure, if you’re actually discussing in good faith, I can put in the effort of digging up arguments from the times of the actual movie release. However, it doesn’t feel that way…it feels like you believe Rian did no wrong, in which case I don’t care to change your mind. I’d rather not dig through archives of #chans and dead forums if you aren’t acting in good faith. Do not misconstrue: I have no respect for the people that were calling him Hitler and worse back then. Half of them were likely bored and angry thirteen year olds.

I am sure any creator who puts themselves out there would be angry that the next day they’re called the worst person to ever live and should die. We are all human and have emotions and I have no wish to see Rian or anyone’s feelings hurt. The point I am making is that if you DO take on the responsibility of something important, close to sacred to some, then there’s always going to be people that hate what you do, no matter how good it is. That is the reality of being in the public eye, much like getting a job of a garbageman means you’ll have to smell garbage all day. People regularly attack Lucas and JJ (even today) and neither of them start childishly lashing back at in an online slapfight.

Lucas has changed his mind multiple times over the decades.

I’m assuming you’re not familiar with his interviews about his Whills and microscopic ideas?

https://gizmodo.com/george-lucas-ideas-for-his-own-star-wars-sequel-trilogy-1826798496

https://www.indiewire.com/2018/06/george-lucas-episode-vii-episode-ix-1201974276/

https://www.indiewire.com/2016/06/james-cameron-star-wars-episode-7-the-force-awakens-george-lucas-1201700523/

Anakin Starkiller said:

Lucas said “balance” was removing the Sith.

It is 90% of the time, and then that other 10% it’s the Mortis arc of TCW where balance is pretty explicitly an equal amount of Light and Dark.

thebluefrog said:

From a narrative perspective, Lucas introduced the Midichlorians and Darth Plagueis in chapter six.

No, he introduced midi-chlorians in chapter four.

AND Plagueis, dude. AND. The Midis may have existed in four, but six was when they became relevant to the narrative. As an example, Stannis was mentioned several times in Thrones book one, but his relevant influence to the current narrative started in book two.

In ROTS, by specifically introducing an entirely new character and his Midi-abilities, Lucas was laying down narrative threads for his microscopic plot in the next chapters.

SparkySywer said:

It’s unprofessional but I can’t exactly blame him. I don’t mean to imply all criticism of this movie is invalid, because I don’t believe that. But so much criticism of this movie is absolutely brain-dead (be honest, yes it is), especially at the time. This person specifically is obviously not exactly a deep thinker and it’s hard to imagine this person would be acting in good faith if Rian Johnson had.

He was acting in good faith in the last quoted part, Rian still kept screaming about his dick. Would you respect a 50 year old man screaming that, even if “justified” because some 20 year old insulted his writing?

Really, though, that’s not the point; it’s still embarrassing and childish regardless of circumstance. There were many other examples; it would just take a lot of inordinate amount of effort and time to dig through his long-deleted tantrums. Disney definitely clamped down on him fast.

From a narrative perspective, Lucas introduced the Midichlorians and Darth Plagueis in chapter six. Meaning chapters seven to nine would cover this material.

For all intents, the sequels exist as sequels to the OT giving little to no relevance to the PT’s new material.

Even if George’s mini-universe idea sucked, it still would’ve flowed with the worldbuilding.

SpenceEdit said:

thebluefrog said:

I lost a lot of respect for Rian when he started screaming about his dick to critics.

I get that being insulted online is aggravating, but when you’re a grown man, especially one given such an important public role, that’s just childish and embarrassing.

I actually haven’t heard about that.

Been a few years so Disney probably made Rian delete a lot of his tantrums, but here’s some remnants:

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/bkozcp/some_rian_johnson_tweets/

Lucas said “balance” was removing the Sith.

Many other fans, writers and directors have decided to ignore that.

SpenceEdit said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I couldn’t disagree more on force awakens. I mean they took Luke and made him a worthless maguffin. Who does that? He was the main character of the original Saga of episodes IV, V and VI. Because they couldn’t figure out a way to include him without upstaging the Disney characters. The one thing i did like was Finn, i liked Poe, i liked Rey and her scavenger on Jakku story. But its a bad unoriginal story and completely derivative on purpose due to the prequels having the perception of being so bad they left a stank on Star Wars.

You could still have new characters like Rey, Poe and Finn and easily set it in the far future. Don’t repeat the same beats rebels vs empire. Don’t crap all over the legacy characters. The sequels are a mixed bag. But the one thing they botched Luke, Han and Leia. Completely and utterly. Its almost unforgivable.

I also think that if Mark Hamill hadn’t publicly reacted negatively to how Luke is handled in TLJ, people wouldn’t complain nearly as much about it, and might be able to find the good in it. It’s the best and most interesting performance of his career. I think it’s very weird that he turned the conversation on it so publicly when he did such good work. It’s a bit disrespectful to Rian Johnson, to me. He wrote these beautiful scenes for him and gave his character a lovely send off.

I lost a lot of respect for Rian when he started screaming about his dick to critics.

I get that being insulted online is aggravating, but when you’re a grown man, especially one given such an important public role, that’s just childish and embarrassing.

Darth Retcon said:

thebluefrog said:

If the Obi-Wan series doesn’t galvanize the public’s interest in Star Wars, then the other random future TV series that KK and Disney announced (Andor???) will be the final nail in the coffin.

Well, at least for another decade or two until they reboot things again.

The general public will probably be happy with anything Star Wars. Much of the public liked the Sequels going on ticket and home media sales.

Somewhat.

TFA broke records and was one of the most popular SW films.

TLJ did not do as well. Seems to fluctuate over the years at being 1/2 to 2/3 as popular.

ROS did a bit worse than TLJ.

Adjusted for inflation, the films rank:

ANH
TFA
ESB
PM
ROTJ
TLJ
ROTS
ROS
AOTC

https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/20306.jpeg

On the topic of retcons, “Darth” wasn’t really publicly known as a title until Maul. Up until that point, ROTJ gave no indication it was some sort of Sith rank.

If the Obi-Wan series doesn’t galvanize the public’s interest in Star Wars, then the other random future TV series that KK and Disney announced (Andor???) will be the final nail in the coffin.

Well, at least for another decade or two until they reboot things again.

Servii said:

That’s why I say the sequel trilogy was pointless. In the end, none of the characters mattered. Other than Kylo and possibly Rey, in 10 years people will have forgotten the sequel characters.

And that’s the real tragedy.

That’s something that’s easy to lose sight of. I think we sometimes forget, because we’re often in a kind of fan culture “bubble,” but the casual audience of Star Wars is generally of a very different mindset.

Most casual viewers likely enjoyed the sequel trilogy, but that doesn’t say anything about a movie’s long-term staying power in the public consciousness. This may sound harsh, but the truth is, audiences will always remember Han Solo and Princess Leia and R2-D2. They’ll even remember smaller aspects of the OT like Jabba the Hutt and the Ewoks and Jawas. They’ll remember Hoth and Tatooine. Most of those people won’t remember D-0 or DJ or Maz Kanata or Ajjan Kloss. Hell, I know some people who couldn’t even distinguish Finn and Poe from each other by the time TRoS came out. Likely the only sequel character who will really stick out in public memory a long time from now will be Kylo Ren.

Of course, this definitely isn’t something exclusive to the sequels. A lot of prequel fans tend to overestimate how much the public remembers of those movies. When I mention the prequels to people, the most common recollection they have of the prequels is Jar Jar and Anakin being whiny. That’s the sort of thing that sticks out in most people’s minds years after.

I even know people who saw Rogue One and loved it, but they almost certainly wouldn’t be able to name any of the characters by now.

Yes, that’s a good point about the prequels too. Lucas made a similar mistake with how undefined the characters were.

I’d say Palpatine will be remembered BECAUSE of his over-the-top cartoonishness at the end of Sith. That’s what Star Wars is; a live action cartoon.

Maybe Padme as well, but that’s because Portman is hot and famous and less because of the character.

The Obi-Wan tv series will be interesting to see if the public still cares about Anakin and Obi.

Anchorhead said:

thebluefrog said:
…in 10 years people will have forgotten the sequel characters.
And that’s the real tragedy.

Tragedy?
Natural disasters, genocide, terrorist attacks, global pandemics - those are tragedies. Fictional movies are entertainment. Star Wars isn’t a series of documentaries.
I’ve been waiting 40 years to see Star Wars the way I watched in the theater the summer of 1977. It’s unfortunate that I never will again, but it’s hardly a tragedy.

Well, obviously, but this is a Star Wars forum talking about Star Wars, so context matters. That kind of reduction to absurdity makes any discussion pointless. Obviously there’s always worse things going on in the world when discussing ANY topic, but it’s kind of distasteful to inject that into the conversation–why discuss feeling strongly about anything if there’s always a bigger, more important issue? And vice versa, it’d be distasteful and tonedeaf to go onto a forum discussing current worldwide events and go “Yeah, but you know what’s a bigger tragedy? This other issue I feel more strongly about.”

I could go into every single forum discussing any media, be it Star Wars, Marvel, Final Fantasy, Lord of the Rings, etc., and say “Yeah, it’s great you are sad/mad about X, but you know what’s worse? The war where people died.”

I’d be technically correct in saying that, but would hardly foster conversation and honestly I’d come across tonedeaf and kind of rude.

jedi_bendu said:

thebluefrog said:

Star Wars: A Holdo story. That character’s sacrifice really made me interested in seeing more of her backstory.

She appears in the novel Leia: Princess of Alderaan by Claudia Gray, if you’re interested. She’s currently popped up in some current Star Wars comics set between TESB and ROTJ, as a friend to Leia helping her try to save Han.

I’m afraid you missed the joke, friend.

No one wants to see her character again any more then they want to see backstabbing prison DJ who is was so badly written he actually went unnamed in the movie.

You can probably go over the entire Sequel Trilogy cast and then honestly act: Who of these characters do the audiences want to see more of.

It’ll be a very small list.

Stardust1138 said:

thebluefrog said:

TFA was a fine movie. Of all 3 films, it had the least flaws. That isn’t to say it was perfect (Rey winning the final fight was a huge mistake) but it still did its job well:set up the rest of the movies.

Then Rian decided to ignore almost everything it set up for his own interpretation of his own Star Wars universe, and, well, the balance was lost. ROS was just the crash that started with TLJ.

I actually think it started with The Force Awakens as it actively ignores the full contexts of the previous six films in favour of playing to what fans expect to see instead of exploring new ideas and letting characters we know grow in a meaningful way that respects them as people. It went for what was familiar on the surface with the Original Trilogy without doing the neccessary work of understanding the contexts of the trilogy and even the Prequels. The whole movie is retro and staying in the past. The Last Jedi equally has its share of problems but I don’t pin them all on Rian. There are some things but he was really put in a bad spot of either continuing the trend of nostalgia or trying something bolder than what was given in the previous film. The problem is it tries new things with actually understanding context even slightly in key ways but a lot of that is from the poor setup. It’s equally on him not understanding of context on things such as the important issue of Luke seeing Anakin as Anakin and not as Darth Vader or why Luke wouldn’t contemplate killing Ben even on instincts. It regresses his growth from Return of the Jedi from a very similar moment that was key to his character development. The Rise of Skywalker on the other just feels like everyone gave up and didn’t care anymore. They just needed an Episode IX to exist and that’s what they made.

It’s sad to see this is what Star Wars has come to. I can definitely see why some fans and newbies alike would love The Force Awakens though. Like George said it’s very much the film certain fans were looking for after the Prequels and equally from a newbies standpoint it has very likeable characters that mask the clear retread of A New Hope. They may never have seen it anyways. So they wouldn’t know until they went back and watched the previous six. In the long run though running away from your story causes more issues than solutions. That’s what ended up happening as they all had a different version of Star Wars than what it meant to George.

Now we’re stuck with a Palpatine being the last one standing and taking the Skywalker name to add to the thought as if it wasn’t enough that a Skywalker last says “Ow!” In the Skywalker Saga. This is very much the anti message of what Star Wars always meant in the first six films.

In the end, the sequel trilogy was pointless. I don’t hate them, as they all have interesting moments and good qualities, but for the purposes of the continuation of the Star Wars narrative? No one cares. There’s a reason why none of the announced tv shows or movies are continuing the sequel era characters.

Nothing that happened in each film mattered to the next film.

TFA started on unstable ground–undoing ROTJ’s happy ending. Ok, that’s rough, but still not a disaster. There was still potential in the sequel trilogy from that shaky start. Maybe this Snoke guy and the First Order will be an interesting new take on the whole war.

Then TLJ ignored everything in TFA that Rian didn’t like. Snoke? Gone, pointless. Hux? Made into a joke at the start. Finn’s FO defection? Pointless and he was made even more of a joke than he was in TFA. Phasma’s cowardice in TFA? No, just a pointless reappearance to just die. Even the new characters in TLJ were pointless. Holdo? No one really cared that she sacrificed herself, because her character importance wasn’t earned. Rose? Why was the character even in the film? To kiss Finn after stopping him from killing himself? And then the entire casino planet subplot was pointless when it was undone by a character who was so badly written he didn’t have a name. The fact that the big, important, galaxy-changing rebellion was undone by a parking ticket was just embarrassing.

ROS continued the pattern-JJ tried desperately to undo the changes TLJ made from TFA, and he failed at that. Nothing that happened in TLJ mattered to ROS since it may as well have continued from TFA: The First Order still is in power, the rebels are on the run, Rey is a Jedi and Kylo is evil. Does it even matter who her parents are? Did Luke or Snoke dying matter? Does it matter if 3PO “dies” since he barely interacted with Rey and Finn and Poe? The new characters in ROS were just as empty as TLJ’s. Is anyone going to remember Pryde or Zorii? Reylo was probably the only interesting concept that would’ve made the sequel trilogy interesting (Rey’s romantic love brings the Skywalker line) but they didn’t even bother to try earning that, either.

Neither Rian or JJ was able to write a character arc that actually felt like it mattered. When both directors were spitefully undoing each other’s writing, no one cares about ANY character since the emotional investment isn’t earned. Holdo’s sacrifice was not an emotional moment since she was unlikable–and then Finn’s STOPPED sacrifice is just as unemotional since he does nothing else to the plot. Rey beat Kylo in 7, then she beat Kylo in 8, and then beat Kylo again in 9. That’s not how a hero’s arc grows, and also reduces the audience’s investment in the villain’s role since he wasn’t a threat. The characters don’t grow, they get rewritten by someone different each time.

That’s why I say the sequel trilogy was pointless. In the end, none of the characters mattered. Other than Kylo and possibly Rey, in 10 years people will have forgotten the sequel characters.

And that’s the real tragedy.

TFA was a fine movie. Of all 3 films, it had the least flaws. That isn’t to say it was perfect (Rey winning the final fight was a huge mistake) but it still did its job well:set up the rest of the movies.

Then Rian decided to ignore almost everything it set up for his own interpretation of his own Star Wars universe, and, well, the balance was lost. ROS was just the crash that started with TLJ.

How can someone not be a film critic? It’s not like there’s any sort of laudable criteria for having an opinion on art.

Channel72 said:

Most of all, it’s eternally baffling to me that so much of the Prequels are framed around MYSTERY plots.

This is a fatal flaw for almost all prequel writing. It can’t be a normal what-happens-next story because the audience already knows the outcome. Yet by default it can’t be self-contained, either, since it has a pre-existing mythology it has to work with, even if it’s chronologically earlier.

It takes an extremely good writer to be able to craft a story that still generates interest even though the ending is known. Lucas isn’t that good a writer–but most people in the world wouldn’t be, either.

I can’t think of a single prequel that changed the original work in a positively-received way. There’s tons of prequels, but they regularly get derided for changing something people believed about the story. For example, Captain Marvel made a few changes to how people believed Nick Fury made the Avengers. These were not popular additions to the story, despite being fairly low-key to the overall mythology.

BedeHistory731 said:

The accusations of “nostalgia bait” should also apply to the PT after Phantom Menace. That movie had such an excellent aesthetic, largely divorced from anything we’d seen in the OT.

Really? I’d say PM was the MOST like the OT. The three main setpieces are grey corridors, desert Tattooine, and forest/palace Naboo. That’s 2/3 of the aesthetic of ROTJ.

In fact, PM is like a mirror to ROTJ, right down to the climax of the silly indigenous people of the planet rising up against a technologically superior army. Lando’s army in space needs planetbound Han to kill the signal; Jar-Jar and Padme’s army on the ground needs Anakin in space to kill the signal.

I once read a long theory that Lucas deliberately made PM mirror ROTJ; that may be giving him too much credit, but who knows?

Very rough in places, borderline terrible, but at least it told a cohesive story throughout all 3 films, unlike the sequels.

Weird to see the thread started 5 years ago.

And also weird that yet another show is set on Tattooine.

6/9 movies have Tattooine.

3/3 tv series have Tattoine.

Interesting to see how there’s zero interest is in any of the sequel planets or organizations. The Prequels are a grey area with all the cartoons.

theprequelsrule said:

So what are we supposed to think about the SW Universe at the end of the last film? I mean, are there going to be no more Jedi? Is Rey just going to be a farmer? Will Finn and Poe get married? I can’t remember too much (the dialogue in particular) since I only saw ROS once and was only barely paying attention by the end.

Nothing in the sequel trilogy will matter with future Star Wars media.

I think this could be done with Boba Fett’s original death. Make slightly less terrible than it was in the live action.

May I also get a link to the ESB too?

yotsuya said:

thebluefrog said:

A major problem with all 3 movies was Rey’s constant winning and Kylo’s constant losing.

A hero and their journey is only as good as the villain and their antagonism.

Imagine if Obi-Wan had WON the very first lightsaber duel back in 1977.

That would’ve killed Vader’s character from the start.

Kylo’s loss at the end of TFA was the first crack. Then losing against Rey again in Snoke’s room. And then being humiliated by Luke. And then losing again to Rey again 1/2 of the way through Rise. Also, her ability to beat Luke while training didn’t help any character progression either.

Rey had no consistent hero’s journey. Yes, yes, you can make all sorts of arguments about scene x or development y, they’ve been done before–the point is that the growth of the heroic character overcoming obstacles isn’t coherent. Since Kylo was neutered as a threat midway through TLJ, they had to use Palpatine to give her a new challenge, which didn’t thematically fit at all from her starting point.

One theme is Star Wars is redemption. We see Anakin return to the light so Ben returning to the light fits very well. And Kylo didn’t really lose in TFA. Chewy shot him and he was fighting injured and the ground split open before their duel was finished. And he didn’t really lose in TLJ, the saber broke and he didn’t want the pieces and left Rey to fend for herself. And he filled Rey with doubts about her identity. Luke’s journey was defined by doubts about his ability. Rey’s journey was defined by doubts about her identity. Bringing back Palpatine was brilliant in terms of her identity crisis, echoing Legends, echoing the Flash Gordon serial origins of Star Wars, and is mythic

Saying “technically” he didn’t lose is irrelevant because it’s a visual medium; the bad guy lying on the ground as the hero is still walking = loss.

Servii said:

thebluefrog said:

A major problem with all 3 movies was Rey’s constant winning and Kylo’s constant losing.

A hero and their journey is only as good as the villain and their antagonism.

Imagine if Obi-Wan had WON the very first lightsaber duel back in 1977.

That would’ve killed Vader’s character from the start.

Kylo’s loss at the end of TFA was the first crack. Then losing against Rey again in Snoke’s room. And then being humiliated by Luke. And then losing again to Rey again 1/2 of the way through Rise. Also, her ability to beat Luke while training didn’t help any character progression either.

Rey had no consistent hero’s journey. Yes, yes, you can make all sorts of arguments about scene x or development y, they’ve been done before–the point is that the growth of the heroic character overcoming obstacles isn’t coherent. Since Kylo was neutered as a threat midway through TLJ, they had to use Palpatine to give her a new challenge, which didn’t thematically fit at all from her starting point.

I agree completely. People often forget that Palpatine was brought back mainly out of desperation. TLJ ended with Kylo standing alone as the main villain (Hux having been made a joke), but the films hadn’t done nearly enough to prepare the character to fill that role. So, they had a villain void going into Episode IX, and tried to fix that by transplanting an OT villain into the story.

And of course, having your protagonist consistently outmatch your antagonist is generally a bad idea. There are exceptions, and ways to make an overpowered hero work in a plot, but the sequel trilogy didn’t handle that well. And a Star Wars story really needs a strong villain in order to work.

The sequels treat Rey’s journey as being very similar to Luke’s, when it really shouldn’t be. While Luke’s journey was more about him growing his power, Rey’s journey should have been about her learning to control her innate power. That’s one way you can make a powerful protagonist work. TLJ had some faint hints of this idea, but failed to commit to it.

Before TLJ came out, there was lots of media attention to the new Star Wars villains. TFA left many many many things unexplained, so people were genuinely interested in what they were going to do. There were photoshoots in NON Star Wars related mediums, like Vanity Fair:

TLJ reduced all of these threats to jokes (including Snoke).