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kk650

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19-Oct-2013
Last activity
29-Aug-2017
Posts
1033

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Post
#1102869
Topic
FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING: Green tint removed?
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

KK, if you’re doing an updated version of TTT and ROTK, do you want those fixed DTS files I mentioned? IMO it’s a huge improvement that makes the disc change points seamless. (I wish I remember who made and posted them to tehparadox so I could tell you who to credit…)

Thanks for the offer but I don’t think it’ll be necessary. This time I plan on including the DTS-HD Master Audio 6.1 audio track for all three films, so in order to maintain a high enough video bitrate for such large film durations I’ll have to split each film in two parts, like they are originally on the extended edition blu-rays. I should be able to use the audio tracks from the blu-rays as is. I’ll create a join between the two parts with mkvmerge so it will jump seemlessly into part 2 for anybody not wanting to take a break between the two parts.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1102458
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

Nick66 said:

Clearly the only way to settle this issue is for both DrDre and KK650 to do a new regrade of the movie that needs it most, The Fellowship of the Ring BD EE, from scratch. He who removes the green tint and restores this film to its genuine beautiful colour palette will be the true King of The Regrade.

So say we all.

haha I would be up for that! Fellowship of the Ring is my favourite fantasy film of all time and in my top three films of all time.

That was a really tough regrade though, both in terms of colour and image dynamics, wouldn’t want to have to start on that one from scratch.

So say we all. 😉

(Man, that was such a good series, there’s been nothing like it since IMHO)

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Post
#1102442
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

Agree to disagree DrDre.

I can see the blanket yellow tint on the blu-ray clearly and removed all of it. You can’t see it and that’s fine. I’m not going to try to convince you of something you can’t see for yourself.

This is the last thing i’ll be saying on this matter until you create your own release and we can compare the two releases in motion. Then we can discuss this further if you wish.

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Post
#1102436
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

DrDre, I have already told you that is what the film looks like with all the blanket yellow tint removed. Remember what I said before about not shooting the messenger? Take up your complaints with Paramount Pictures, the studio that released the blu-ray.

I’m an innocent party here, the purpose of this release is to make the Raiders of the Lost Ark blu-ray look as appealing as possible, not recreate the colour schemes of the WOWOW or 35mm LPP release which are very different to the blu-ray both in terms of colour and image dynamics.

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Post
#1102433
Topic
kk650's Regraded Titanic (1997) IMAX (blanket yellow tint removed from 3D blu-ray)
Time

I’m glad you like my latest settings, I got a little carried away with the first V2 screencaps I put up, they looked fine in certain scenes but in others, I could see that it was way too much saturation.

If you’re hinting at needing a Myspleen invite, I wish I could help but I don’t have any more invites to give. Hopefully a kind soul will step in and help you out.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1102431
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

Everybody is welcome to their opinion. Just because you and DrDre agree on something doesn’t make it fact.

I can see the difference between the original 35mm image and the colour matched shot, the fact that you and DrDre cannot tells me that either your monitor is not as sensitive to differences in colour/image dynamics as mine or you simply don’t have the experience I do colour grading. I have created over 200 releases and with each release I have learnt something new. That experience adds up and gives you insight that others less experienced may not have. There is a big difference between analysing single frames out of context and actually regrading a whole film so it looks good the whole way through.

When you remove a blanket tint of course shot by shot colour inconsistencies will increase, because the blanket tints were added in part to hide said inconsistencies, but targeting single frames you don’t like because they are not completely colour balanced and arguing the whole release needs to be redone is silly, a whole film is never going to have every shot completely colour balanced so the sky always has the same colour in every shot, consecutive shots are often shot at different times with different lighting conditions and therefore sunlight and skies changing colours between consecutive shots. That is just a logistical reality to shooting a film. That is why it is more important to regrade films by watching said film in motion, rather than regrading from screencaps, that way you can see the bigger picture and get a much better idea of colours and especially the image dynamics in motion.

Like I said to DrDre, watch the actual release in motion rather than judging from single frames and perhaps your opinion may change. I am very happy with how this release looks in motion and I have no plans to change it in the near future. If you or DrDre want to discuss further with me how Raiders of the Lost Ark looks best, create your own releases and then we can compare how each of our releases looks in motion and have a very interesting discussion.

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Post
#1102303
Topic
kk650's Regraded Titanic (1997) IMAX (blanket yellow tint removed from 3D blu-ray)
Time

SkellingtonJack, I don’t want you to end up being disappointed unnecessarily, remember that the aim of this project is not to recreate the colour grading of previous home releases like the Laserdisc that has a very distinctive blanket reddish look but to the detriment of the blues, but to actually bring back the blues by removing all the blanket yellow tint on the blu-ray.

V1 was probably missing some warmth though, just removing all the blanket yellow tint wasn’t enough, so with V2 i’ve adjusted the settings to add that warmth back. The previous V2 screencaps were a little too saturated, I got carried away and when I came back after a 2 hour break and had a look at my settings I could see that i’d gone overboard. That’s why its important to take breaks when regrading and reaccess so you don’t go too far down the rabbit hole. Here are screencap comparisons using the final V2 settings:

Blu-ray:

Version 2 final settings:

Blu-ray:

Version 2 final settings:

Blu-ray:

Version 2 final settings:

Blu-ray:

Version 2 final settings:

Blu-ray:

Version 2 final settings:

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Post
#1102261
Topic
kk650's Regraded Titanic (1997) IMAX (blanket yellow tint removed from 3D blu-ray)
Time

Thanks for all the feedback!

You all refering to warmer grading of the DVD and Laserdisc releases got me thinking, so I checked out the 3D blu-ray again and I think you’re right, Titanic is meant to be warmer and have more of that sunset feel to it in daylight shots. I have adjusted the grading settings accordingly and will be releasing a Version 2 of the Titanic IMAX release very soon.

EDIT: V2 Screencaps removed because settings have been updated.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1101471
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

DrDre said:

kk650 said:

That is definately better than the previous colour matching attempt but it is not indistuinguishable in terms of colour/image dynamics, the picture on the left looks fine but the picture on the right looks unnatural in terms of fleshtones, Indiana’s eyes in particular look very bad on the right and not at all like the picture on the left. The only thing worse than getting the fleshtones looking unnatural is having the eyes looking unnatural.

This is just nonsense. The RGB values for the flesh tones are identical, as such the flesh tones are identical. The only difference between the two images is the DNR applied to the bluray, which obviously has some effect on some of the image dynamics, which simply cannot be recovered by any methodology, least of all curves adjustment.

There’s no need to call my opinion nonsense DrDre. My eyes see what they see, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. I’ve been respectful to you and i’d appreciate the same courtesy.

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I’m not interested in discussing this with you any further until you create a release of Raiders of the Lost Ark using your own methodology. Then we can talk more, but not before.

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Post
#1101467
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

That is definately better than the previous colour matching attempt but it is not indistuinguishable in terms of colour/image dynamics, the picture on the left looks fine but the picture on the right still looks unnatural in terms of fleshtones, Indiana’s eyes in particular look very bad on the right and not at all like the picture on the left. The only thing worse than getting the fleshtones looking unnatural is having the eyes looking unnatural.

I’ve always found what your colour matching tool can do very impressive but unless it can match the colours and image dynamics 100%, there is a margin of error of the algorithm making up colours/changing image dynamics that I personally would not be able to tolerate. If I were to create a release using that tool, I would never release it unless it was 100% accurate or the difference was so negligable that I could not tell the difference looking with my own eyes on my 30 inch monitor.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1101465
Topic
FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING: Green tint removed?
Time

Nick66 said:

kk650 said:

Nick66 said:

I have KK650’s regrade, and it’s my “go to” version of Fellowship.

Still, it doesn’t really match the TE BD or EE DVD (and in fairness I know that’s not what he was trying to do) and in general just replaces the green tint with a blue one. It’s a definite improvment, but still not how the film should look (IMO).

Matching the Theatrical Edition blu-ray or Extended Edition DVD would unfortunately require a shot by shot regrade. I believe you’re right about there being a slight blue tint on the Fellowship of the Ring release I put up on Myspleen, I updated the regrade settings a number of months ago but I just hadn’t gotten round to encoding it yet. Thanks for reminding me! I should definately have the new regrade of Fellowship of the Ring done soon.

Oh I’d love to see that! Like I said, your FOTR is pretty much the version I watch now, so any upgrades would be most welcome.

I’ll also be updating The Two Towers and Return of the King as well, in case you’re interested in those.

Post
#1101449
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

I believe that the blu-ray was color graded on a shot by shot basis and then a blanket yellow tint was added on top over the whole film. I have just removed the blanket yellow tint and left the shot by shot colour grading underneath intact. You may think that methodology is flawed but to my eyes that is not the case and I see a lot of flaws in your own methodology which I’ve pointed out earlier, the unnatural looking fleshtones in particular which is a very big problem, the biggest a release can have as far as i’m concerned.

Colour matches would perhaps only be worthwhile in my opinion if you had a 35mm frame of every single shot in the film to match to, and even then, trying to force the colours of the blu-ray to match the very different colours of the 35mm LPP gives very questionable results to my eyes, for it to work the colours and image dynamics have to be 100% identical. This shot below for example of the Bluray matched to the 35mm LPP, the fleshtones just look wrong to me, they don’t look right relative to the lighting of the scene and the overall colours. The 35mm LPP frame looks fine, but the Bluray matched to 35mm LPP does not IHMO, like you’re trying to force two completely different colour schemes and image dynamics together and ended up with a bit of a mishmash where the colours don’t interact correctly:

We both have our own methodologies that we prefer and that’s fine. I see numerous problems with yours, you see numerous problems with mine. I don’t think we’re going to be able to convince each other of the merits or problems of our own methodologies, the only way to proceed would be to compare two releases of the same film created using the two different methodologies. I would personally find that fascinating.

The main difference between you and me of course is that I have actually commited and put out a release of Raiders of the Lost Ark. You put out your release of Raiders of the Lost Ark using your colour matching methodology, then I’ll watch the whole film in full, as its meant to be seen. The only way of truely accessing a regrade is watching it, not nitpicking single screencaps. Then I’ll be happy to discuss with you the merits and flaws of each release and the respective methodologies used to create them. Until then, I don’t see there being much point discussing this further.

You should check out my release in motion and see whether that changes your mind about the colours. One thing i’ve learned from creating regrades is that screencaps very often don’t tell the whole story, you have to watch the actual release in motion.

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Post
#1101424
Topic
FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING: Green tint removed?
Time

Nick66 said:

I have KK650’s regrade, and it’s my “go to” version of Fellowship.

Still, it doesn’t really match the TE BD or EE DVD (and in fairness I know that’s not what he was trying to do) and in general just replaces the green tint with a blue one. It’s a definite improvment, but still not how the film should look (IMO).

Matching the Theatrical Edition blu-ray or Extended Edition DVD would unfortunately require a shot by shot regrade. I believe you’re right about there being a slight blue tint on the Fellowship of the Ring release I put up on Myspleen, I updated the regrade settings a number of months ago but I just hadn’t gotten round to encoding it yet. Thanks for reminding me! I should definately have the new regrade of Fellowship of the Ring done soon.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1101418
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

Nick66 said:

I see these releases more as an “alternative” colour grading rather than a “corrected” one. I’m a fan of KK650’s FOTR, for example, and it’s preferable to the BD, but like this release, more or less replaces one tint with another. In the case of FOTR, I prefer KK650’s to the official BD (though it still has issues), but I think I prefer the colouring on the Raiders BD to this one. Though obviously neither is completely accurate to how the film should look.

I think that’s the best way to look at any regraded release. The only ‘correct’ releases are the official blu-rays, all regrades based off those blu-rays are ‘alternative’ colour grading by definition in my book.

Many may prefer these ‘alternative’ colour graded releases, but the fact remains that none of them have been supervised by the filmmakers, while the official releases have been, so the official releases are the most ‘correct’ releases we’ll ever get, if we all agree that the artist should have the final say on how their piece of art should look and what is ‘correct’.

As for Fellowship of the Ring, i’ll be releasing a nice new updated version of that release very soon 😃

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Post
#1101412
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

DrDre said:

kk650 said:

I removed all the blanket yellow tint and was left with the colours that you see in my regrade. I appreciate that you think I have removed too much yellow but I can very clearly see that that is not the case, I can see that with pretty much 100% certainty.

Well, in that case you shouldn’t trust your eyes, but the numbers. As the RGB values don’t lie. There’s an overabundance of magenta all over the frames you posted in places where it definitely shouldn’t be (as the above complation makes clear visually). This is a mathematical certainty.

This feels to me like a case of you shooting the messenger, blaming me for how the blu-ray transfer looks under the blanket yellow tint, which is completely out of my control. The Titanic looks much more conventional colourwise under the blanket yellow tint but I did exactly the same as I did here, just remove all of the blanket yellow tint.

And your Titanic looks great, no doubts there. However, if you simply look at the compilation I posted above, there’s no doubt your Raiders regrade is magenta shifted in the brighter areas. This has nothing to do with the bluray colors.

I don’t think there’s much point going round in circles here DrDre. You were working on your own version of Raiders of the Lost Ark right? That’ll be your opportunity to regrade the film to your preferences with a more yellow colour scheme and then everybody will be able to choose between both our releases. I’ve moved onto other projects now.

There’s no circles, it’s magenta. If that’s your purpose, more power to you. While I too have a tendency to respond with irritation in the face of criticism (initially, these things tend to bug me, such that I usually fix the problem eventually), I’ve also found these discussions generally lead to a better result, as sometimes others notice things, you may have missed. You’re free to ignore me of course. That’s fine by me, but left as is, this regrade is not up to your usual standards (IMO of course).

I am glad that you like the Titanic release but the fact that you like the look of that release and not this one is completely making my point about shooting the messenger.

You think there is too much blue and red after removing all the blanket yellow tint, fair enough. That does not change the fact that it is there after removing all the blanket yellow tint.

Maybe the print or digital negative they used to colour correct the blu-ray shot by shot had a little bit of red-fade (like all the 35mm print frames of Raiders of the Lost Ark i’ve seen out there) and that made them feel the need to add all the yellow to try to counterbalance that and give the film a more conventional orangey look? I don’t know but the purpose of this release in particular was to remove all the blanket yellow tint, not compromise like I have in previous releases and only remove it in part.

I welcome your feedback and that of everybody else but I never expect my releases to be liked by everyone, colour preference is completely subjective so that would be impossible and a fool’s errand. As releasers we have no choice but to go ahead accepting that fact. I think Kino in particular is becoming very familiar with this due to all the controversy surrounding their The Good, the Bad and the Ugly release, they tried to make a section of fans happy by removing some of the blanket yellow tint and ended up pissing off another section of fans.

The moral of the Kino story is that its impossible to make everybody happy, so the most important thing is to make sure you as the releaser are happy. That said, its important to always listen to feedback, just as it is important to understand that its not always necessary or even advisable to act on said feedback. In the case of this Raiders of the Lost Ark release, I am very happy with how it turned out, but i’d be lying if I said I didn’t expect resistance after seeing what the film looked like with all the blanket yellow tint removed.

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Post
#1101403
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

I removed all the blanket yellow tint and was left with the colours that you see in my regrade. I appreciate that you think I have removed too much yellow but I can very clearly see that that is not the case, I can see that with pretty much 100% certainty. This feels to me like a case of you shooting the messenger, blaming me for how the blu-ray transfer looks under the blanket yellow tint, which is completely out of my control. The Titanic looks much more conventional colourwise under the blanket yellow tint but I did exactly the same as I did here, just remove all of the blanket yellow tint.

I don’t think there’s much point going round in circles here DrDre. You were working on your own version of Raiders of the Lost Ark right? That’ll be your opportunity to regrade the film to your preferences with a more yellow colour scheme and then everybody will be able to choose between both our releases. I’ve moved onto other projects now.

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Post
#1101396
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

confusedgambler said:

I think DrDre has been consistently on the warm side of color grading where kk650 has mostly graded on the cool side. Not a big deal really, some people prefer the warm while others like the cool. Personally the warm colors on DrDre’s examples look more natural to me. kk650 you talk about your skins tones. To you does Marcus’s skin tone look correct? To me he looks so blue, sickly even.

Within the context of the rest of the colours and the lightsources in the scenes yes I think all the fleshtones of my release look correct. The ones in DrDre’s screencaps do not, they just look wrong to my eyes.

If I want to watch a warmer looking Raiders of the Lost Ark, I can just watch the official blu-ray, at least the fleshtones look correct there in the context of the rest of the colours.

Post
#1101252
Topic
kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray)
Time

I appreciate the feedback guys but I much prefer the colour and image dynamic of my own release compared to DrDre’s regraded screencaps here, the difference is night and day to me.

The biggest issue I have is that the fleshtone colours look very unnatural to me in all of DrDre’s screenshots, especially the screenshots where Indiana’s about to grab the idol and when he shoots the guy with the sword. Fleshtones are the most important thing in a regrade IMHO, those have to look right or you´ll end up taking people out of the film, because viewers spend most of the time watching the faces of the characters. Image dynamics are also an issue, they feel underexposed and there is still a blanket yellow tint that hasn’t been removed, making the sky look greenish blue. My release removes all the blanket yellow tint, bringing all the blues back into the colour palette of the film.

My previous releases were more conservative and I didn’t commit fully to removing the blanket yellow tint in its entirety, leaving some of the yellow blanket tint like DrDre did in his screencaps, but now I am able to be a lot more precise when it comes to removing all the blanket tint.

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