jarbear

I really like what Sherlock did, just good work.

And to everyone, the ideas, samples, mock ups, etc etc has been great and just wow.

Fortunately, having some finished or usable items can be shared for people to do their own tweaks to Hal’s base is such a great thing. Just good stuff man.

Edit: not sure it’s possible, although I’m the Sherlock route of removing the all sith part, I would think it could help extend it and be a fall back to ROTS where he would say “I am the sith” … like he did about the senate. I know Hal removed it mainly for the better palpy mace exchange which I agree with. (I miss it though, 😂)

Anyway just random thoughts. I may have more for later.

sherlockpotter said:

Alright, this may be stupid, but something is still nagging me about “We’ll kill him together.” It’s a tiny nag, admittedly - I think it’s because “We WILL kill him” comes across less like Kylo is imploring her to help him end the Sith, and more like, “Oh boy, here we go killing again!” It’s like Kylo cares more about killing this guy than he does about stopping the Sith. Maybe it’s just the way Adam Driver delivers the line? (Emphasis on “Kill” instead of “We’ll”?) I know, I know, it’s a subtle connotative difference; but it’s gnawing at me.

Plus, “We WILL do this” doesn’t really leave open any other choices for Rey, which - to me - deflates the tension of the moment considerably. “Of course Kylo’s wrong. She’s not going to start murdering people with him!” Rather than, “Oh gosh, Kylo has a point. What’s Rey going to do?”

So I made a quick mockup. Is it worth trying to iron out the new line? https://streamable.com/4tms6i

(Between this, “Become a Dyad,” and the eventual Rey Nobody replacement, we’re just going to change all of Kylo’s dialogue in this scene, aren’t we? Lol.)

EDIT: I also did a bit more work on this thingy: https://streamable.com/ffimpr

Blended out Palp’s Theme (I hope) a little bit better, cleaned up the word “a”, added a clip of Rey panting to cover up the omission of “and,” and also trimmed down the dramatic pause before she finishes her line (to help fudge the lip sync). Any better? The video cut on Rey’s line could be a little tighter and overlap the line on her catching the second saber more; I’m just worried about carving too deeply into the closeup shot.

Yes please. I like the change to the hanger scene line in the sense that, probably at this moment, Kylo doesn’t have a “plan” to deal with Palpatine’s “transfer plan” … but for sure he wants Rey to help him deal with Palpy. So by having the focus on “Join me and we can stop him” it works for both Kylo’s mindset (currently with this edit since Palps tells him about his transfer thing) and it would at least be a “reasonable” to try to sway Rey.

Also, YES PLEASE to the Palpy Rey scene. IT WORKS. The over confident Palpy, taunts Rey about her being a simple scavenger and Rey’s response … she now has overcome everything and perfectly responds, in essence “no, I am a JEDI ya wrinkly nerf herder!”

Hal 9000 said:

DZ-330 said:

RogueLeader said:

I couldn’t find it so I did it myself real quick (maybe I did this on my own originally…)

https://streamable.com/2v2dd0

“And” being cut might be noticeable to some who are aware of the change, but I honestly believe your hypothetical first time viewer, or people who just haven’t seen the movie since release, wouldn’t even notice this change. I moved “Me” up a few frames earlier, and I think the slight shift helps sell it as well.

I like how Finn assumes it’s Ren with such conviction, only to be left not knowing what to say after Rey says it was her. I think this is the simplest way to handle it.

Cross-posting from the general thread, Hal would you consider this for a change in V2?

Hmmm… interesting, indeed. I guess the intention of the scene originally is to let Rey fear joining Kylo on the throne, which ties into his offer later and explains her violent response in trying to kill him on the DSII. Making this scene all about her rather than her and Ren would help the climax a little. Unless their teaming up is viewable as a fulfillment of this fear in an inverted way.

Idk, I guess it’s all right with me, but has anyone dissented?

I don’t disagree with those points. However, I have not seen any negative. For me, it adds more weight to the end because, the vision would now seems more “real” since it’s about HER taking the throne, not her and Kylo … since it’s just her alone with Palps. The theme of her “being alone” is still present in her mind.

Plus, for Ben/Kylo aspect of it … he has not interest in the Past … which the “Sith” would be part of so why does he care about the throne anyway? (Also, the last two movies really made it clear he wasn’t sith … so why all the sudden does it matter?) He’s doing his own thing … so it makes the vision make more sense thematically too.

A different point, I am curious about a merger between Jar Jar’s and RogueLeader’s hanger scene that adjusts Kylo’s dialogue a little to that would further help to bridge this point in that he does not talk about both of them on the throne … but just stopping palpatine/putting him in a nursing home/whatever. If Kylo knows the “plan” on Palps anyway, why would he want Rey to kill Palpatine … if he transfer to her … which is not what he wants … so why? Why not just simply be “stop palpatine” or whatever. Simple and would be EXACTLY what Kylo wants. Have her join him and stop Palpatine.

EDIT: Also, thinking more about the idea of the hanger scene … if achievable to remove the whole “take the throne together,” remember, Kylo at this point has two goals: Have Rey join him to rule the galaxy and remove his enemies, aka the resistance and palpatine. So for the first part, he needs to seduce Rey in a sense. Now … Rey has been training as a Jedi, aka the good guy, why try to seduce her in the lines of “Oh hey, your bad, so lets just go full on bad, take the throne together and become Sith.” That is a blunt way of doing it. But by changing his dialogue more on the lines of “Yeah you are bad, but Palpatine is worse, so let’s stop him together because of our dyadness.” So by leaving out the throne topic of the two of them to literally become QUEEN OF THE SITH BADDIES, it is more on the lines of “Hey, we can stop the REAL bad guy together.”

For the topic about the suns, etc, I agree with Hal’s assessment: Match it to what Star Wars has shown. If it matches the style, then it’s fine.

As for the line RogueLeader showed, it’s flawless and just makes sense. I admit I have not watched Hal’s V1 nor the original movie in such a long time … I noticed nothing. So in the eyes of a first time viewer … there’s nothing that sticks out. I am a fan of it and just makes sense to do.

Dude … it’s perfect.

I would DEFINITELY use that once Hal’s is done.

@sherlock I’m really picky about things, but this works for me. I’ve watched it several times and even just listened to the audio. The dialogue is fine to me and sounds so much more natural and fits better than the original. To me at least.

I do agree the music cue needs some more work and needs some fine tuning. Maybe just be the empires thing up to the “music pause” that’s already there may be an idea to try?

EDIT: I am specifically talking about the first one since to me, if I should that to my wife, she wouldn’t notice any difference and it works. The music just needs a little tuning, but the dialogue is fine to me.

I’d be interested in a mock up for sure.

The worlds easiest job: Lucasfilm’s “new”/Disney story team. Literally do nothing, nothing needs to connect nor make sense.

Hal 9000 said:

jarbear said:

Next they will have Vader discover his father was a drunk who sold him for drinking money and his mom lied the whole time.

I’ve checked out of the EU surrounding TROS. I don’t care to take it into account.

My man.

No worries, they’ll retcon it later.

Next they will have Vader discover his father was a drunk who sold him for drinking money and his mom lied the whole time.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Lmao I wanna die over here. According to the new Vader comic, the hooded dudes in the amphitheater around Palps had lightsabers and could use the Force.

Bruh.

Why couldn’t they just be fanatics of the Sith. Leave it to Disney to mess up yet another thing.

You know what disney lucasfilm’s motto is: if you’re in a hole, keep digging.

I know there is no one good answer to satisfy anything, since we know Palps was literally put in the movie just for marketing reasons/nostalgia/just cuz/who cares why. I also understand doing the whole transfer thing is what Sith have been doing the WHOLE TIME gives us … somewhat an answer. And yea, you can go that route to help explain all this. Sure. And good points with it.

However I personally would not want to make that implication. If a person was to sit down and do a Star Wars Marathon (Hal’s for sure for the PT!) there is “movie logic” that Palps talks about Plaguis who was basically figuring out reversing death, aka UNLIMITED LIFE WITH UNLIMITED POWER! (hahah) … but at this point didn’t have the secret to unlocking that. We even have Palps talking about figuring it out. So, we have Palps, who as a Sith is all about power … of course he would want to live on forever, would continue that work. So it something “new” by that time. (Remember, by ROTS, there was no force ghosts [till the end of it for Jedi to train on that] or a way to stop death)

Fast forward to the last movie. We see that Palps was indeed working on that, and was somewhat successful. What was one of the ways? Well with changing the Snoke vat to Palpy vats, we see he involved cloning. (That change was such a simple and smart change editors did!) And the whole transferring could have been either him figuring out fully or partially from what Plaguis started.

Personally, I would be ok with keeping the line “The Dark Side is a Pathway…” since it would more so connect to the audience to ROTS … which hey! Palps talked about this topic! So it’s really a line to help the audience connect to that movie.

Again, it isn’t perfect, but having it more of Palpatine doing this and not just “Palpatine wasn’t a person, he was all the Sith in a body! The Sith are no an individual, but a bunch of guys and gals in a body impersonating a person!” kinda takes away from Palpatine. Another instance of “This isn’t the bad guy in the story, it’s this new guy that get’s introduced at the end.”

Again, I want to stress just my view and it isn’t perfect by a stretch since there is no perfect way with Palps, who was pretty much thrown in the last movie “for reasons.” I would like it if it was complimenting the movies/“movie logic” that came before it, not “rewrite” them.

RogueLeader said:

I think the “I am all the Sith” line could still work in the context of Palpatine presumably carrying the knowledge of dozens of generations of Sith before him. It doesn’t necessarily have to mean he’s all the Sith in one body.

I rather have that be the rational than what the implication is from the movie … it didn’t jive at all with the previous movies. As long as the other lines are removed it keeps that just at ambiguous as Rey saying she is all the jedi … which she clearly isn’t.

While I am sure there are books/comics/whatnot that explains that, but that’s not explained in the movies. I admit my viewpoint is more on the strictly with the movies and the audience watching the saga from start to finish without having to go to outside sources to explain things, especially important/major aspects that affect the movies. (That is why I’m also personally not a fan of the sequels since they did not naturally flow from ROTJ like ROTS did to ANH, but this is neither here nor there)

So on my view (Not saying one is right or wrong at all!) it would be wise to keep things pretty self contained to the movies as I could say pretty confidently that the majority of people who watch the movies … just watch the movies. So keeping things just connected to the movies makes more sense to the audience. In ROTS, we have Palps talk about Plaguis and trying to stop death, or at least was “successful” in a way, but not fully (Plus palps did say he’s looking to figure it out in that movie too). So now, we see a connection to that WITH cloning, which was a big deal in the PT. Which may be the reason Palps was into a cloning for not just an army, but to “finish” plagues’ work.

So just in my modest view, having things stay more connected in the movies, even if it is simple explanation or connection, it feels more connected that way. Because in some ways, having to “retcon” or “rewrite” aspects of the previous two sagas feels a bit cheap … or at least “forcing” what happened previously to accommodate the new.

So again, not saying there is “one right way,” but just a view to help keep the movies connected together.

Wow Rogue. This is very interesting idea and will think about it. I like the less explicit things and it leaves thing not just more ambiguous for Kylo and Rey … but the audience. It is really more in line with Palps who is straight up a manipulator who gives half-truths to make the people confused or THINK they know. It is a good way to still keep some kind of explanation in the beginning (we also still see Palpy clone vats, but not the full picture) to Kylo’s motivation with Rey at the hanger AND Rey’s motivation to “do the deed” at the end.

Out of curiosity, would this concept more or less remove any instances of “kill with revenge/hate that completes the transfer” and leave it more … flexible for Palps? Because leaving it more flexible helps at least, kinda give a reason for Palps to be around after the DSII destruction … it helps simplify it that Palps can transfer around a bit, but we see the limitation with cloning and whatnot.

EDIT: Looking at the PT, it would be a little more connected that Palps did Find a way to survive due to the knowledge he had from Plaguis. To me, it would be more cohesive it is is really Palpy and not the whole “Sith all together” since it would really “play nice” with Plaguis. With the knowledge and time, Palps “mostly broke the code” using whatever he learned from Plaguis and cloning … but the dyad is the final piece and he didn’t know it till the last movie. So in some ways, the whole taking of their dyadness energy was more than just a “Force Bantha” bath, but his goal of preventing him now from dying since the energy he took literally cured his dying body. He can now prevent himself from dying, not others. (like Plaguis was “apparently” able to do)

Of course that last part was just a view you can have, but the first part I would like to see it’s palpy and not all the sith to connect more in line with ROTS and Plaguis.

I agree with your thought process Sherlock, and Jar Jar is right there are those lego games that have him voicing things … hopefully something would pan out.

I do think the Spy angle was lame, or to be nicer, just handled poorly. It came off more of “helping the other guys win” and not “I want to take over and kick Kylo out” which was definitely hinting at from the last movie. But the execution of it in this was … bad. It didn’t come off well at all. It’s like he just … didn’t care anymore by this movie.

I am liking this direction … this is very promising and doesn’t seem like a drastic change, that simply helps make things a bit more logical. You know, the opposite direction JJ went for. Lol.

EDIT: The more I keep thinking about it, it seems on paper pretty doable to do with some more fine tuning. I’d like to see a combination or whatever between Rogue’s sample and Jar Jar’s direction on the hanger scene. Since Kylo knows Palps plan … his transfer thing … then why would he want Rey to kill Palps? If his focus is having Rey on his side … isn’t that like the exact opposite of what he wants? If the wording/motivation is changed to her joining Kylo to STOP or FACE Palps together, that seems more in line with what he wants. What will they do together? Im sure he isn’t sure yet, but he just knows he wants the two of them to join together. Heck, maybe the plan would be to overpower Palps and put him into a Force Nursery Home. But jokes aside, since Kylo knows Palp’s endgame … why tell Rey to kill Palps when he knows what would happen?

As well as making Rey’s motivation make more sense. Without Palps revealing his “My spirit will go into you … but don’t worry, you will totally have control since … I’ll be grateful to get out of this decaying body which keeps soiling itself every five minutes and I’ll let you take control. wink” to “You kill me and my POWER will be yours, AKA the Big Dark Side power which you can use to save your friends.” We the audience knows that is not true, but Rey doesn’t know … and it makes it believable she would go through with it.

Man … this makes more sense.

Lol once again rogue leader does it again. I like that “simple” approach that ties in … you know … the previous movies’ explanation/danger of dark side.

EDIT: On paper, it sounds like it is doable and is such a pretty minor tweak that has a better impact on things.

NeverarGreat said:

sherlockpotter said:

But again, in regards to saving her friends, none of this has any relevance to the themes of the film. This is when those themes are supposed to come to their conclusion; but instead of talking about Rey’s anger, or her heritage, or anything like that, J.J. and Chris are just like, “Meh, you better kill him Rey, or else all of your friends are gonna die,” as they flap their hands about. How has the film built towards this at all? What is the film trying to say by forcing this (external) conflict on Rey? How is this final dilemma (of the entire Star Wars saga) in any way satisfying?

How is it satisfying?

It’s not.

The writers wrote themselves into a very simple conflict with Palpy returning: Have Rey kill him or have her not. Based on the themes and her actions over the prior two films, there’s absolutely no drama with killing Palpy since she actively tried to kill Snoke and he called her a True Jedi for doing so, with absolutely no subtext as to any darkness associated with this action. The only drama would then come from her not killing Palpy, but there’s no reason for her to choose this so the final film had to manufacture a reason for her to not kill the most evil guy in the galaxy by making him her caring grandfather. This might almost work since it plays into the thematic line of her constantly wanting a place in the story, but the writers then decided that Rey should actually want to kill Palpy in anger due to the spirit transfer plot device, and so wrote Palpatine back into being Mr Evil by ordering the hit on her parents.

Now Rey’s back to the uninteresting place of wanting to kill Mr Evil, with practically no continuation of the theme of Rey’s belonging. The spirit transfer plot device and resulting revenge subplot effectively kills the theme of the films. Bringing Rey’s friends into this contrived mess of a conclusion merely serves as a distraction.

Lol and yes.

It makes sense, if you don’t think about it. - the principal of TROS

Sherlock I completely agree with your assessment in regards to the logic behind it all, but specifically more about the transfer crap for me. Fortunately, I think … it isn’t explained in the movie about “Strike me down with hate and that allows me to transfer” as that is explained outside of the movie (Please correct me if I am wrong). By the movie’s logic, Palpy can transfer … mostly by being struck down by someone (though he somehow transfer from DSII … just don’t think too hard on it.)

Please remind me, but the whole exegol scene with Rey there doesn’t have Palp mention/explaining/talking about the transfer to Rey? If it isn’t mentioned at all at that point, then for Rey’s knowledge and understanding, Palp is saying “You strike me down by this ritual, then you get to have the throne … AKA you kill the boss you take over …” and not “You strike me down by this ritual, I/we/sith will utterly possess you and you get the throne as MeWeSith Lady” then Rey would have a reason to do it … since “I would be the boss, I can call off the destroyers.” That would make sense for her to decide/reason on why to do it, and we the audience are like “oh no, it’s a trap!”

But yeah, regardless, the whole Sith Transfer thing is still goofy but as long as it never touches on the idea of “strike with hatred allows the transfer” in this movie and she doesn’t know it, then it’s at least tolerable. Since Rey is CLEARLY not doing it out of hate at all and why would she do it if she loses herself and palpy takes over?

Keep it somewhat simple.

jonh said:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mZ7QMDDBjVfKj_IdVa73EVGUkNiO10aA/view?usp=sharing
I think the shoot has improved …
What is your opinion?

Jonh strikes again! Very nice, very nice.

Having comparisons would be really helpful since seeing things visually and comparing it with each other, but also the scene surrounding it helps a lot. I tend to go towards the more subtle approach on things, but sometimes not depending on seeing it in action.

Rock on y’all!

Wow some good things this morning to respond to

@hal, sounds like it was more of a pain than imagined to remove the original sound with the dagger. Congrats for doing that and it will really help with the focus on the dagger’s purpose. Very nice.

@Sherlock, yes please. I like that SO MUCH BETTER than the original line. It is more fitting and believable.

@Dat_SW_Guy, It’s quick with Rey, which is good since it is so quick it would be hard to sit and compare 1:1 with other scenes with lighting.

I think it may be tough to create something convincing of Finn receiving some lightning since it is a wider shot and would be easier to “catch” the effect and may not look right. My suggestion maybe is to remove the first shot of Finn from the front “receiving” the force push and cut it to where you are seeing him fly back.

With that being said, if someone could add maybe some smoke … vapor … or whatever that comes off of him will sell that it was a force lighting/push thing.

I only suggest that IF it is hard to really replicate a good force lightning effect with such a wider shot. However, what do I know, so much talented work has been done on this I tip my hat to ya’ll.