Fang Zei said:
Fang Zei said:
Fang Zei said:
Fang Zei said:
Fang Zei said:
Fang Zei said:
Fang Zei said:
My friend who is a projectionist talked to the projectionist at Celebration for us:
Spoke to the projectionist at #SWCO and confirmed that these are the same 2K DCPs used for the OT Blu-rays. No 4K (except for Rogue One).
I seriously question just how confidently the Orlando projectionist can actually state which master the dcp is derived from.
Again, let’s not forget Tack’s report on one of the roadshow screenings last summer. I’d be more interested in how the image actually looks in terms of color, contrast, grain, et cetera.
Also, the 2004 masters (the same ones used for the blu-ray) weren’t even done at full 2k resolution. They’re 1920x1080 hd. The Lowry guys were very specific about that during a press conference for the dvd way back in '04.
Anyway, I wonder if we can find out from an attendee in Orlando how the picture actually looks. Of course it would have to be someone who actually knows all the color timing quirks of the '04 master like we do, and I doubt there are many fans there who do.
Empire and Jedi are tonight.
I think the 2004 master was derived from the conventional 2048x1536 resolution scanning parameters (for scanning O-negs) in the early 2000s .This would also conform to the geometrical proportions of a 35mm anamorphic negative frame of film.
I honestly think that the 2004 article which stated that Star Wars was scanned at 1920 X 1080 was an editorial mistake.
You would be cropping out segments of the actual frame if you did scan at this resolution as well as introducing geometric distortions when optically(or digitally) stretching the frame back out to 2:35.
As far I am aware(correct me if i am wrong) the 2004 DVD/2011 Blu Ray features all the picture information(in terms of content-not resolution) when digitally re-scaled to the 2:35 aspect ratio(within the 16:9 HD frame).
This would indicate that it was indeed scanned at 2048 X 1536.
Yes, but I wasn’t talking about the scanning resolution. I was talking about the resolution of the final master Lowry delivered. The 1920x1080 number doesn’t come from an article, it came straight from the mouth of one of the Lowry guys at the press conference for the dvd back in '04. I had an audio recording of it sitting on my old computer I’ve since gotten rid of. Hamill, Kershner, and Jim Ward (President of Lucasfilm at that time) were also in attendence. There was a part where someone asks the Lowry guys if the new master is 2k and one of them responds “no, 1920x1080 HD,” which probably meant that the actual picture was 1920x817 because of the scope AR, with the black bars filling out the rest.
Maybe you are not remembering that Press exchange correctly.
An 8K,4k or 2k scan of a film negative(or 1st generation Interpositive) has to be re-scaled to 1920 X 1080 for the master of ANY Blu ray title.
In the case of the DVD from 2004, the 1920 x 1080 master(derived from the 2K scan)became the basis for that release.
And this would have been the case for any Standard Def DVD title from the early 2000s(or even now).
Many did not even get this luxury.
A lot of DVD transfers were generated from telecines of 35mm theatrical film prints(be they flat or anamorphic)…the same process used for Laserdisc,Selecta Vision, VHS,Beta and V2000 home video releases of the early 1980s.
The James Bond films(some of them) and Star Wars were among the first set of flicks to get the benefit of 1080p masters(that would subsequently be down rezzed to 480p) for DVD.
Which finally brings us back around to my original point, which was that the resolution Lowry finished their restoration at was 1920x1080 HD and not 2048x1080. Jim Ward called it a “digital negative” back in 2004, which might have been considered true at that time given the limits of digital projection technology in the cinema. But even then, I’m pretty sure they were already finishing new movies at actual 2k res (Oh Brother Where Art Thou, Lord of the Rings, etc) and even starting to finish some movies in 4k (Spider-Man 2, released in 2004, was the first 4k DI).
The DCP for Star Wars that would be projected in a commercial cinema must be either 2048 X 1080 or 2048 X 1536 as stipulated by the SMPTE.
I think there has a been a lot of confusion that has been disseminated(unintentionally or otherwise) over the years from forums such as these and elsewhere.
For commercial projection they would use the DCP(2048 X 1080).
For Home Video they would use the 1920 X 1080 master which is no different to any other hi-def(or standard def)title on the market.
According to the video engineer who goes by the name of Vidiot(from the Steve Hoffman forum) Star Wars was scanned at 2K using a Spirit 2k scanner. It was also color corrected at this resolution.
Those 2k Files were also manipulated by Lowry for the re-scale for home video(DVD & Blu Ray).
But the DCP had to be 2048 X 1080.
In 2007, for the 30th anniversary, they used a Christie Digital Micromirror Device™ 2K 3-chip DMD DLP Cinema™
(2048 x 1080 pixels) to project all 6 films.
AOTC and ROTS DCPs would be upscaled to 2K.
The OT would use the DCPs which were already at their native 2k resolution for front projection.
Maybe the Lowry guy was only talking about the hd master for dvd and eventual hdtv/blu-ray, but he definitely specified 1920x1080. I suppose it’s possible they finished their cleanup at actual 2k first and then made an hd video master from there, but that’s not what I remember Lowry guy saying.
Lucasfilm’s color-correction would have happened first, so that doesn’t really tell us anything about what exact res Lowry was working at.
Even if the dcp’s being used for these screenings are 2k, they still wouldn’t truly be 2k if they’re being upscaled from a 1920 source. As Wazzles pointed out, even AOTC and RotS had their cgi and color-timing done at 2k.
According to the Digital Cinema Initiative Protocol (184.108.40.206.) there are only 2 options(2048 X 1080 or 2160 X 4096) for front projection.
So the DCPs for Star Wars had to be at 2048 X 1080 as a MINIMUM requirement.
The DCI protocol specifies that 2048 X 1080 can be upscaled to 4K IF the projector is 4k capable.
There is no allusion to 1920 X 1080 upscales to 2k (which is impractical for any number of reasons).
It also makes no sense for Lowry or ILM to have scanned at 2K…down rezzed to 1080p (for a master)…to only have that upscaled again for 2k commercial projection. That would introduce digital scaling artifacts, something the DCI is firmly against.
Then my question would be:
Do you think it’s possible, if Lowry was in fact only working at 1920x1080 res, that a 2k digital cinema master could have been made from the HD master (slightly upscaled at the source) as opposed to it being upscaled on-the-fly by a 2k projector?
One would presumably yield better results than the other.
My Sony 4K projector has a native resolution of 2160 X 4096.
The UHD discs are mastered at 2160 X 3840.
I notice the artifacts when I scale from 3840 to 4096.
I achieve incremental brightness by imaging the entire breadth of the Projector’s 2160 X 4096 panel.
But the picture is marginally sharper when staying at the native resolution of 2160 X 3840.
As for Star Wars,it makes sense that the DCP is 2K(to be used for commercial projection).
For the home video market, the 1080p master(derived from the 2k scan) suffices.
I’m like 99% sure the lowry guys specified that they were working at 1920x1080, meaning the final master is stuck at that resolution and any 2k dcp would had to have been upscaled slightly (upscaled at the source as opposed to being upscaled on-the-fly by the projector). I tried searching for the audio recordings of that press conference I listened to on TFN way back when but only found a written story about it. It was called Star Wars Media Day. Google even turned up this:
Thanks for that Fangzei.
Our own OriginalTrilogy member, Zombie, made the mistake many years back,be it deliberate or otherwise, of repeating ad nauseum, that the O-Neg of Star Wars was scanned at 1080 X 1920. Of course he was only referencing that 2004 video magazine.
But the author of that article never DIRECTLY quoted any of the engineers as saying that it was scanned at that resolution. It seems like the author of that article misunderstood or misinterpreted what was relayed to him by Rick Dean and John Lowry.
A little bit more research and common sense indicates that you cannot scan a 35mm anamorphic negative(such as Star Wars) at the native resolution of 1080 X 1920. It would not be conducive to attaining all the picture content of the entire length and breadth of the image as the geometry of a 35mm anamorphic frame does not conform to the dimensions of what would be a hypothetical HD(16:9) imaging sensor.
It’s why the scanning parameters are either 2048 X 1536(2k) or 4096 X 2160(4k)
The best information we have is from Vidiot, who worked directly with Lucas:
“As a result, it was done on a Spirit 2K scanner (at Post Group/LA). We did the color correction at IL+M’s offices on
Kerner Blvd. in San Rafael, using a temporary room with a Pandora Pogle Platinum color-corrector, working with 2K files
coming from a Quantel IQ server. Five years ago, there was no way to work with 4K files in real time; now, it can be
done, but it’s a slow and expensive process.”
They did do lots and lots and lots of digital 2K restoration on the project over at Lowry Digital in Burbank, and I thought it was a nearly-pristine image once they got done with it."
There’s a difference between the resolution of the source scan (which was indeed 2k for scope as you said, but that’s more like 1820x1536 since the frame is 1.20:1 and not 1.33:1) and the resolution of the workflow it was actually restored at. I’m not 100% convinced that Vidiot isn’t using the terms 2k and 1080p interchangeably.
LexX’s post above suggests that not even the color correction was done at more than “high definition” resolution. That description (4:4:4 RGB) is exactly what I remember the lowry guy specifying in the audio of the press conference. He was also very specific when he said 1920x1080. The person asking him about it then said “so 2k?” and lowry guy then responded “well, no, 1920x1080 HD, but we were working at full RGB.”
Like I said, I really wish I could find the audio of this. TFN had a page with four audio files broken up by the people being interviewed (Kershner, Hamill, Jim Ward, and the lowry guys). I don’t remember now how I found it, this was of course way back in September of '04.
It was definitely 2k(and not 1080p) for the scan.
And Vidiot should know, because he freelanced for John Lowry on the Star Wars project.
People are confusing a 1080p master(used for the Blu ray and DVD) with a 2K scan to be subsequently used as the basis for the DCP.
I worked on a bunch of that stuff(Star Wars & Return Of The Jedi), and all that I saw was 2K."