Just had a skim through this and it looks great. The inclusion of the SC38 fight scene is well managed and isn’t the full out of place Vader fury. I’ll need to find some time to watch it properly, but good job!
I’d be interested in seeing this…it’d put a completely different spin on the film but as long as the songs ‘fit’ the mood of the scene, I can’t see why this can’t be an alternate way to watch the film.
Will be watching out for this with interest...
This is one of two fan edits I'm watching over this weekend - the second is The Blackened Mantle edit which I'm watching right now.
First impressions for this edit - I enjoyed it very much. I liked the minimal dialogue and finally someone has made a decent attempt at making Anakin less of a whiner and more of the person alluded to in Episode IV. He's much more stronger in this version than any other edit I've seen (no offense to the other fan editors) and so it makes his move to the Dark Side less obvious.
It's a little odd not hearing the John Williams score, but the music chosen for this edit works well. Was that a Thai song I heard late in the movie (at the very least a SE Asian pop song of some sort)
Overall, I enjoyed this a lot. The only thing that bothered me was the sound levels for when dialogue and sound effects were allowed through, but I'm guessing that's down to having to manipulate what's there already to kill the music soundtrack.
Good work!
If you cut Leia's scenes, then you will end up with how her character ended up in ROTJ. To me, she is supposed to be a leader...after all, she is a Princess being groomed to rule a planet. Cut out her abilities to lead an army or participate and you end up with a damsel in distress, which is how I view her character in ROTJ. Would Han Solo or Luke have been that interested if she was a tag along?
Sorry if I'm late the party...been busy in recent times.
Bobocop said:If only I had the time to redub an entire film like that.
I'd try to keep the same voices, but do things like Yoda with Grover lines, Solo has tons of options with all the Harrison Ford movies I could toy with, Luke could get lines from Guyver or that car movie from the 70's... something Summer I think...
Corvette Summer...
I say dub the characters with the voices from the Muppets...and I love the idea of a cockney R2 - make him all rhyming slang and have subs.
Just to add to that last comment, even Enterprise had the last season arc showing Earth being attacked by a giant laser, so to speak. All that could do, as catastrophic as it was meant to be, was gouge a long mahussive trench into the Earth's crust....and even the new Star Trek movie required a certain amount of digging in order to carry out the destruction....
Ok, this is slightly off topic, but relevant to Jambe's documentaries, but I've gotten back in contact with an old friend whose uncle was one of the 2nd unit directors for The Empire Strikes Back. I guess, in a more direct question to Jambe - if and when he manages to get back on the board - would you be interested in interviewing him for a future edition of Building Empire, or is that now a closed book?
Sorry for getting off topic!! Back to the usual programming....
I thought I'd pop by and show my 'face' again...it's been a while although I have tried to keep up with the shannigans in here. Have I missed anything major other than Ady's battle with the Post Office and the seeming pirating of his goods?
Has anyone actually gone back through the various articles released by Lucas over the years regarding ROTJ? As far as I can remember, and I'll try to find an article to back it up, but Lando was slated to die in the DS battle whilst trying to escape. This is the reason why Han believes he won't see the Falcon again.
The original scene was to run as it does in the movie, but rather than shooting out of the fire like a phoenix, the flames engulf the Falcon killing the intrepid heroes. There was supposed to be a brief line with Lando commenting on how Han was not going to be happy right before the final explosion...
It looks like GL possibly didn't want a downbeat ending to his trilogy to contrast with the redemption of Anakin Skywalker, so 'saved' Lando and created his teddybear ending instead.
Like I said, I'll try to find an article backing this up, but it's not a new idea and certainly isn't Ady doing a GL for the sake of a big change.
I've read pretty much every book released in the EU and some were hard going whilst others were close to the spirit of the original Star Wars. As mentioned above, the Thrawn Trilogy, which kickstarted everything off in the early 90s, is good reading. Zahn seems to understand the characters a lot better than those who subsequently wrote stories. Thrawn is an interesting character, a non-human in the company of humans and leading them. He had an interesting way of reading enemy tactics.
The X-Wing series, as I've written elsewhere, were also good books to read and I've re-read them many times. It's good to be able to concentrate on fringe characters and bring them to the fore. Wedge finally got a series to himself, had a backstory (of sorts) and was able to be more than 'Wedge Antilles, the only other character in all of the original trilogy movies'. More than anything, I feel this series of books above all written so far would translate well to a set of TV movies. There is an established set of central characters, similar enough to evoke warm fuzzy feelings, but different enough not to be labelled as a 'Luke clone' or 'Han clone'. The established characters do make appearances, but by-and-large, this is a Wedge series and I think it benefits greatly from having a set of characters who weren't as tightly defined by Lucas.
Ok, so this thread is about the good stuff in the EU...however, along with the good comes the bad and the ugly. The bad stuff? Well that might be the Yuzhong Vong invasion...a series of books that took far too long to come to an end, killed off everyone's favourite 'shaggy dog' and generally created a clone of Vader. Ugly? Well that would be the rise and fall of Jacen Solo. He seemed to be set to 'clone Anakin Skywalker' but by 1000%...only this time he was 'fighting to save the universe for his daughter' only he didn't get seduced by a great user of the Dark Side, but a bit part character who was killed off in the comics at least twice and was a rebel pilot to boot! Jacen really had to be a bit weak willed to be driven in this way...to me at least! Not only that, but he really did become quite whinny in his manner toward the end...do all Jedi who fall end up with this attitude?
Is it me, and this is no slight on Ady's work as it is there in the 'original' 2004 adjustment, but in the pic with Lando running through the now open corridor, is Lando completely surrounded by a massive matte line? It's only a quick shot, but can anything be done or is this a layer that's going to be difficult to sort out?
Liking everything else - even the presence of 'forcefield' Lando isn't going to spoil my enjoyment!
Been waiting with baited breath for some time...it's as hotly anticipated as the Adywan revisited series!
Cloning as a sci fi concept has been around forever and used in varying degrees of 'audience acceptance' in a load of movies - The Island is one example where someone has been cloned but doesn't know they've been cloned from an original. Their isolation from the original gives them a different nature but the same kind of knowledge albeit in flashback form - things seem very familiar but the clone is unable to put a finger on why. Old TV shows, especially those from Gerry Anderson, dealt with cloning in someway - copying brain patterns, robot 'clones' with the same memories and abilities, etc.
My idea about the clones was that all abilities are biologically inheritable but that it requires proper schooling to harness those skills. Jedi are biologically able to sense the Force more than 'normal' people and are trained to focus on that ability. It's not to say that the midichlorian idea is an acceptable one - I still think it was a very shoddy idea to try and explain the Force and how people were taken to become Jedi. The 'What If?' surrounding cloned Jedi is whilst you'd be able to copy the original's form right down to their brain pattern, you'd still be able to manipulate the end result via the gestation period. Implanted thoughts and suggestions would come from the 'nursery' which would eventually conflict with the original's memory patterns and begin to drive them mad perhaps? The other side to this is perhaps by having two of the same accessing the Force, the Force itself would know the genuine one and begin to reject it, thus driving the original mad...?
Sorry if it doesn't make an awful lot of sense...it kinda did when I started typing it out. Anyway, it's early...I'll leave the '3 year old' method to you guys to shoot holes into it :p
Savage said:Bingowings said:TheBoost said:vaderios said:The inner stalagmites are placed to make a point. It gives an other depth of field.Like you said Ady has the last word here.
-Angel
Silly quibble, but since stalagmites and tites are formed by water dripping, an asterioid with no liquid water or gravity wouldn't have any.
I always liked the space slug. I don't think it needs any tweaking.
"There's an awful lot of moisture in here."
Not to mention, Han et al can walk around freely, so there's certainly gravity as well. :)
I don't mind the slug as is, however, I always balked at "the cave's collapsing" line since it looks so obviously like teeth. If the slug just waits for something to land in it to eat, I think the entrance would appear more cave-like than like rows of teeth. That being said, perhaps the teeth are hidden within the wall until the slug senses the Falcon's attempt at escape and then starts to close to trap it inside. But what're you gonna do?
Wow, ANHR has the great flipper debate and so far ESBR has had the great green laser debate, the great blue/grey TIE fighter debate, the great expand the carbon freeze chamber debate, the great change the slug debate, and the great get rid of that damn snowflake on Chewy's foot debate! And we're still quite a way off from its release!
Actually make that the Great Great 'Get rid of that damn snowflake on Chewie's foot' debate...! Don't forget there was also the minor 'Yoda's ears twitch too much' debate and the very minor 'Should Lando die' debate (not that it was a debate but it was discussed!)
WheresBlackhawk said:I'm not sure of the best way to get into my ideas for Ep2 and 3. When I gave my bare outline for Ep1, it was shot down pretty quick. I have a lot of ideas going for the next two, but its not as complete or solid as my recent Ep1 outline. Would you folks rather the bare bones outline of both episodes (I'm not even sure where the transition between movies should occur yet) or just lay out some of the concepts I'm working on?
For example, questions I'm trying to answer are:
1. What is Clone War II?
2. Why do we never see Yoda in this trilogy and why is he on Dagobah?
3. What sets Anakin apart from other Jedi that Palpatine is interested in him?
4. How does the emperor rise to power and how do we make him NOT seem evil?
5. If the emperor is willing to kill Anakin's children because they would be a threat to him, why does he keep Vader?
6. Who are the Sith and why aren't they in the OT?
7. Why did Obiwan tell Luke, "I was ONCE a Jedi knight, the same as your father"?
8. After Alderaan is destroyed in ANH, why isn't Leia a queen? Wouldn't she be the last living royalty of that world?
9. Why does Leia remember her "real mother," while Luke finds Dagobah familiar?
Let me know how you would like me to present my ideas (outline or concepts).
Palpatine has to be the consumate politician. Capable of spinning facts to his benefit whilst never seeming to be 'out of line' from the general population. He would be someone with the charisma of Bill Clinton but the underhand/sly tactics of George Bush perhaps (in that he went after a target because he thought it was the right thing to do without the full information or because his advisers told him to)
By the time Vader is in the life supporting armour, his ability to control the Force is already diminished to the point that all he can is Force choke and move objects. To the Emperor, he is already largely useless and perhaps he feels guilty for almost killing his prize 'pupil'.
As said already, Ben is a former Jedi knight because the order is no longer in existence. It's not to say he isn't a Jedi still...just no longer a Knight. Presumably, the older you get the less able you are to control or access the Force which is why Vader taunts him during their final duel - 'your powers are weak, old man'.
Luke and Leia...perhaps their mother actually survived their birth and both were raised on Alderaan till an early age. Luke was taken to Dagobah when he was split up from his sister and had a suggestion planted in his memory before his memory was wiped 'to protect your sister and keep her safely anonymous'? A little far fetched, but plausible given the powers of the Force.
Yoda on Dagobah? Maybe that is the centre of all things Jedi. This is where the apprentices go, not to a seemingly overgrand gesture of a building. It is undetectable by other Force users due to Yoda's immense presence within the Force allowing him to mask the entire planet.
I don't know if this might help, but these are my views on things.
Octorox said:ChainsawAsh said:I like I and II a lot, but not so sure about III. I don't think there should be a Jedi Council at all. I also don't think we should introduce the Emperor idea so late - that should come during II, in my opinion. I also don't know what to think about us knowing the twins so early, though if there's one OT surprise we have to drop, that would be the one to drop.
I do, however, like the idea of them seeking Yoda's advice about the children.
I do like the Sith pirates thing, and if we need to use the Sith in some way, that's the way to do it.
I don't think we really ought to preserve any of the OT secrets. Everyone knows who Yoda is, everyone knows that DV is Luke's father and everyone knows that Luke and Leia are siblings. Who exactly are we keeping these secrets from? The whole point of the PT was to flesh out the backstory of the OT and show just how everything happened. How Anakin fell to the dark side, how the jedi knights were wiped out, how the empire rose, how Yoda ended up on Dagobah and how the twins were born and seperated. If you get rid of this How element then what is the point anyway?
If you want to just see how things happened, then you already have the Prequel Trilogy, flaws and all. By fleshing out the story, you also open opportunities to take things in slightly different directions, a 'What If?' scenario, so to speak. It's not looking to preserve the secrets of the OT, but to ensure that the PT tallies better with the OT instead of having contradictions or stupid ideas thrown in like midichlorians, or forcing the OT to make exceptions.This project, if it ever came to being, would be presenting things in a far different manner, so there is licence to move away from accepted routes. We all know the eventual answers, we just don't want them projected in such a clumsy and obvious manner.
I feel there were a lot of elements that warranted more investigation - the Clone Wars...what was the idea behind this, who was Darth Tyrannus, where does Dooku fit into things, why does Grevious know how to fight with sabers - was he a former Jedi and the prototype for Vader, etc...The PT has so many elements thrown into it that it becomes too messy ad confusing. Characters appear and disappear without explanation, everyone speaks with a formal tone and the Jedi, far from being the grand characters they should be, appear to be a police force with special powers and these symbiotic creatures living in them.
The fall of Anakin was also handled quite badly, going from one extreme to another with a lot of sulking inbetween. I believe it was pride that caused him to fall but pride should be displayed as much more than a sulking whinning person. A search for acception could also provide opportunities for Anakin's downfall. If he was really seeking acception from a family or group, then he would do things he thought would impress them. Recklessness comes from this devil-may-care attitude, from a wish to do something impressive. Flying through an advertising hoarding isn't reckless or impressive. It's stupid. Obi-Wan's 'failure' should be linked to this in some way. Perhaps he also has a stubborn pride that doesn't allow him to see things until too late. It was touched on in ROTS, but it should be more of his character - will he fail to be a good teacher, is he really as good as Yoda. Just how good was he...?
Should Palpatine really be an interloper...he seems to spend a lot of time trying to get Anakin without really doing a lot...Maybe he could be a Hitler type of character. An 'alien' who is trying to amass the 'perfect' Empire (as Hitler tried to do with his Aryan race, despite being non-Aryan in origin), without alien influence which ironically goes against what he is - an alien who has no accepted place in the galaxy...?
Bingowings said:astromech said:Since the idea of midichlorians is universally hated (I hate it bitterly), use of The Force has to be more than spiritual otherwise everyone would be able to tap into it. Every Force user has to be biologically more capable of accessing that unseen power, some more so than others. Being more spiritual isn't going to help in this case.
As for Jedi putting themselves forward for cloning, just as with Darth Vader being a name, it might also show why they are long lifed...
Anyway, it was merely an idea and I think it's not a bad idea - ok, it's a little hokey but hardly a trilogy busting idea...I just think the Clone Wars needs to be more than the fight between the cloned army of one person and a million robots that act like the three stooges...
Edit: the fact that Vader has been involved in a life threatening fight has been part of Star Wars lore since the beginning. You cannot change that he has become crippled due to his fight with Obi-Wan. Whilst it is an interesting idea, I think that there has to be a proper face off between the two once friends which will result in Vader taking on the mask and suit more permanently.
We know that Obi-Wan fights Darth Vader (which is why he needs life support) but he could be wearing a variation of his armour during the fight (thus keeping the fact he is Anakin away from the first time audience).
Vader's armour was based on Japanese armour like the Zunari helmet and Mempo :
if this sort of thing was part of the Vader persona he could wear that element all the time and only add the breath screen after his defeat.
I think that was one of my suggestions that saw Anakin in disguise as a Jedi vigilante...anyway, I was commenting on how far off the path things were going with the whole Anakin-Vader and use of Dark powers adding to his ailments. There are some things which are fixed and we won't be able to change them, but we can change aspects of how things happen and make them grander - so long as they eventually fit well together.
On a slightly different note, a brand new Samurai suit was commissioned for the first time in decades to commemorate Darth Vader and his Samuari origins during last year's 'celebrations': http://toybotstudios.blogspot.com/2007/06/darth-vader-samurai-armor.html
The point of the cloning of the Jedi would show that the skills and powers can't be cloned which turns them mad...if you've read the Zahn trilogy, you'd see that there are no stable Jedi clones...only mad ones who believe themselves to be the original...
Since the idea of midichlorians is universally hated (I hate it bitterly), use of The Force has to be more than spiritual otherwise everyone would be able to tap into it. Every Force user has to be biologically more capable of accessing that unseen power, some more so than others. Being more spiritual isn't going to help in this case.
As for Jedi putting themselves forward for cloning, just as with Darth Vader being a name, it might also show why they are long lifed...
Anyway, it was merely an idea and I think it's not a bad idea - ok, it's a little hokey but hardly a trilogy busting idea...I just think the Clone Wars needs to be more than the fight between the cloned army of one person and a million robots that act like the three stooges...
Edit: the fact that Vader has been involved in a life threatening fight has been part of Star Wars lore since the beginning. You cannot change that he has become crippled due to his fight with Obi-Wan. Whilst it is an interesting idea, I think that there has to be a proper face off between the two once friends which will result in Vader taking on the mask and suit more permanently.
WheresBlackhawk said:How about we step away from specific characters for a bit and look the Wars themselves. What are the Clone Wars? Who is fighting who? Why? Should the Jedi support clones? If the force is energy from all living things, how does artifically created life affect it? Are clones a "hole" in the nature of the force? Why are we talking about TWO wars? Is the Republic the good side in CWI but maybe the bad side in CWII because of the Emperor taking control (but before it is declared an Empire)?
Let the ideas flow!
I still think Tim Zahn's use of the clones is a far better example of what the Clone Wars might have been if George had thought it through more. Why would you use a clone from one person only? That only gives you one person's experience and knowledge. It's very limited, especially in an army situation where you need the knowledge and experience of more than one person. They might all develop their own personalities, but at the end of the day you're still dealing with a billion examples of one person.
Cloning Jedi, however...that's something different and could well provide the solution to the Sith problem. What if Jedi were cloned? Fighting an enemy who knows your every move as you make them (or even anticipating them) is far more difficult. Could you see yourself in the Force? Perhaps this explains why clones are difficult to 'see'. Maybe some of these clones survived and developed their personalities in opposite to the originals?
After all, what's a clone war if you only have clones fighting on one side...?
Just to add, perhaps this is also what caused the downfall of the Jedi too...their belief that the clones they had of them would see them through the war...?
Zahn's post OT trilogy of books mentioned that there were clones of Jedi, not just clones of a bounty hunter. Perhaps, one aspect of the Clone War could be Jedi vs cloned Jedi...how would each one know which was the real one, or more to the fact, how do you fight an enemy who knows your exact move as you're about to make it? Perhaps Darth Vader could be born of Anakin's clone...a replacement who genuinely doesn't know that he is a clone and filled with the rage of watching himself die at the hands of his closest friend?
Having the cloned Jedi involved might give more impact to the whole Clone Wars idea, rather than a slightly weak 'we've cloned a billion versions of this one man, let's use them to fight' type thing....
Bingowings, I have offered to send out a few copies to the British-based forumers here...let me know if you're interested via PM...
Perhaps you'd have Anakin acting as a renegade Jedi wearing armour not dissimilar to Vader's eventual setup. That way, Vader simply slips into lifesupporting armour based on his look rather than be given it for no apparent reason when he is beaten by Obi-Wan. Since GL swung the emphasis onto Anakin/Vader, then make Vader a bigger part of the myth, as if he is a separate character and push the suspicion off him until ESB. That way Obi-Wan could fight Vader as he implies in ANH and right at the end, when Vader is beaten you could have him revert to Anakin for a brief moment that allows Obi-Wan to discover who he is...?
I do agree that you should have Anakin's story, but have it not so projected as it was throughout the PT...it was almost like 'here's a good boy, wanting nothing and giving everything. But wait, he's exhibiting signs of darkness and he's starting to wear dark clothing so he must be a bad person now.' You need to have a certain amount of ambiguity to tie up enough with the original trilogy and the revelations it reveals.
