Zyrother

Harmy said:

Yeah, except they just used the DIGITAL masters which the LDs were sourced from, so short of intentionally introducing artifacts, they could hardly have added any that weren't present on the LDs as well.

 I remember when the Gout first came out, people were adamant that they added fake grain to make it look terrible. Which is completely absurd.

That would require too much effort on Lucasfilm :P

FrankT said:

So overlaying another source on top as a difference matte or something wouldn't do much good?

 I cant imagine it would. But, i'm not well versed in that area. Someone else here might have a definitive answer. Sorry.

You could actually use the same LaserDisc source. Whoever at Lucasfilm did the transfer did not care, and did the most lazy, and pathetic transfer ever. 

There are a number of people in this community doing LaserDisc captures. Since these people actually care about Star Wars, and the quality it is presented in, the captured video and audio is very good quality.

Though, the best LaserDisc set of Star Wars that is generally agreed upon is the 1986 widescreen release from Japan. The trilogy set is categorized as Star Wars: Japan Special Collection or known shorthand as JSC. It has the best detail, and is free from DNR, and a host of other problems that plague the 1993 "Definitive Collection" or known shorthand as "DC", of which this Gout DVD is sourced from. Though the JSC does not have the best color palette. The "DC" has better color.

Sorry for the long winded answer. The short answer is, it takes special care and technique to get a very clean, and proper LaserDisc capture. Something that Lucasfilm in 2006, did not do. :/

FrankT said:

Zyrother said:

dave88 said:

DrDre said:

A video sample for SRV13 is being processed. Should be finished by the beginning of next week. We can then do a proper comparison. The slow moving grain is much more apparent on my HD-TV than on my laptop. Also the static nature of the grain can't really be seen in a single screenshot. 

 Is this the same static grain that is so clearly seen on Teamblu's most recent effort? I assumed it was something they had added rather than something they brought out from the GOUT.

I found it quite distracting, it almost seemed like looking at the image through a lace material or something. I would rather watch their V3 release due to it.

 Technically, yes. When the Gout DVD was mastered, it of course, received all the defects of an analog source, IE, this top layer "grain". Since the mastering was so lazily done, this top layer "grain" is extremely noticeable because of the higher resolution of DVD compared to LaserDisc.

Super Resolution makes it even more apparent. :/

 Is there any feasible way to get rid of it?

 I guess if you absolutely slather it with DNR, it would probably go away. But then, of course, you are left with no detail whatsoever, and wax people. If you want to see the damage too much DNR does, check out the 2010 Blu Ray release of "Predator: Ultimate Hunter Edition". Thats what too much DNR looks like. >.<

Seems like the best thing would be to work around the "grain". Sharpening detail like what DrDre is already doing. But, we would need some high level, professional equipment to get industry standard results.

Lucasfilm really did all they could top make the Gout look patently terrible, while at the same time, making it just good enough to slow down the black market of the LaserDisc rips.

dave88 said:

DrDre said:

A video sample for SRV13 is being processed. Should be finished by the beginning of next week. We can then do a proper comparison. The slow moving grain is much more apparent on my HD-TV than on my laptop. Also the static nature of the grain can't really be seen in a single screenshot. 

 Is this the same static grain that is so clearly seen on Teamblu's most recent effort? I assumed it was something they had added rather than something they brought out from the GOUT.

I found it quite distracting, it almost seemed like looking at the image through a lace material or something. I would rather watch their V3 release due to it.

 Technically, yes. When the Gout DVD was mastered, it of course, received all the defects of an analog source, IE, this top layer "grain". Since the mastering was so lazily done, this top layer "grain" is extremely noticeable because of the higher resolution of DVD compared to LaserDisc.

Super Resolution makes it even more apparent. :/

This top layer grain permeates all 3 films. Seems to be inherent from the LaserDisc itself, as this same grain field is present when watching any LaserDisc on a modern TV. Albeit, not nearly as obvious due to the lower resolution compared to Dvd.

I think a short, looped clip is an excellent idea thorr.

Wow, quite impressive. Although, there is detail that is wiped away. Not substantial, but noticeable. The same 10 minute video sample you usually do would provide the best constructive criticism.

In my opinion, I would be happier with SRV12 given these screenshots. Grain hardly bothers me. I might be swayed with the sample video.

But, lets see what the general consensus is. I suspect this will be a topic of great debate. :P

I think DrDre had experimented with removing halos before. It was successful, but the amount of detail lost was not acceptable. So we opted for more detail, but forced to live with the haloing.

The inherent nature of Dvds simply don't allow a very nice, natural, grain field. The bit rate is far too low. What has been recovered is impressive already. Plus, during the mastering process, they probably screwed up and produced frozen grain chunks. This happens sometimes with poorly mastered Blu Rays as well.

Seeing it in motion is the key factor of course. Grain usually looks worse in static pictures.

A comparison of SRV12 and SRV13 screenshots would be more beneficial to determine whether to start over or not.

But the comparison of SRV13 with the base upscale is quite good.

I apologize, I thought you were looking for an explanation on what SR does. Sorry about that :P

EwokinOnSunshine said:

I'm a little new to this whole thing :/ Could someone explain in simple terms what SRV is if it's not too much trouble?

Super Resolution is able to find the detail that is hidden by the low resolution. It combines pixels that are from different frames to form a sharp image. Check the Wikipedia page for a actual scientific breakdown. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superresolution

Awesome! Cant wait to see what Empire and Jedi look like.

Thank you!

The Tatooine scenes look very good, much cleaner, and easier on the eyes. :P

Overall detail is incredible, aliasing is nicely reduced, and its just awesome looking. Haloing is still a problem, but I doubt much more can be done with it without affecting the detail. 1080P is definitely the way to go!

Excellent work again! Hope the other 2 films get similar results.

I thought it was agreed that the PAL RoTJ was "better", but I have not seen comparison screenshots or anything.

But I have heard people say that RoTJ is better looking than the other two due to it having less DVNR.

SR may have simply brought out grain that wasn't visible before.

Although the grain it brought out is not inherent to the film, but part of the original LaserDisc video. Its this grain field that permeates on the top of the entire picture. Good ol analog sources :)

Considering how many different print and film elements you guys are juggling with, the results are very impressive! I have always loved the grainy, and "dirty" look of film as opposed to the sterile, and bland look of digital.

As you said, consistency across the entire film is important. But consistency across the trilogy is near impossible due to the different elements available.

Excellent work as always, and thank you!

The preview looks great! Detail is sharp, colors look natural to the film elements, and its very clean all around. Looking forward to more!

Thank you for all your hard work!

Nevertheless, Super Resolution has proven to be an extremely effective upscale method in regards to the GOUT. Its incredible how much detail was hiding away.

But this was a team effort, and everyone deserves congratulations! :D

Impressive stuff.

The anti aliasing is amazing, probably looks even better in motion!

Awesome! Cant wait!

The screenshot looks extremely good, those Tatooine scenes are by far, the grainiest and worst looking parts.

Also, do you have any screenshots from Empire on Hoth? I recently watched the GOUT of that and the grain is pretty heavy during scenes with snow on it. 

I say, go with the one that has the most image. That distortion of the AR is so minute, it hardly matters to me personally. Plus, its really easy for people afterwards to change the AR in their own time. Up to you of course, but I think it looks fine the way it is. The more image, the better!

Would I be silly to assume the Blu Ray has the correct AR? I cant imagine they got that wrong? But, I got a sneaking suspicion they did. :/

I have to agree with thorr, the de-haloed images just don't remove enough of the haloing to counteract the loss of detail in many areas. It does tend to eat into the 3D image.

Although it does seem worth it to dive into the de-haloing process more and improve upon it! :)

I remember reading somewhere it had something to do with the NTSC/PAL conversion. Oh well, we gotta work with what we have. :/

Is there a reason that IV and V aren't better on the PAL dvds? I would assume that all 3 would be 576i.  Its just really strange that the NTSC versions for IV and V are better. Confuses me :P

I agree with thorr and towne32, this is incredible. 1080P really makes it shine. Aliasing is further reduced, and everything is just that much cleaner looking. This is definitely the version to release! Although I suspect rendering it at 1080P will increase the rendering time a lot.

A stunning release, excellent work! :D