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ZigZig

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11-May-2017
Last activity
21-Sep-2023
Posts
748

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Post
#1205237
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

[ZigZig: Where does the Bible say that God is torturing people ?]

Many places. Jesus says it all the time. It’s in Revelation.

moviefreakedmind said:

If you’re looking the Bible verse that literally says “God likes to torture people,” then you’re not going to find it

OK, so the Bible say that God is torturing people in many places, but we’ll not find a single verse that literally says that. All this is perfectly coherent.

It is coherent. The Bible says God burns people.

Citation needed. Again. I’m not playing a game, you are. And you’ll continue to play without me.

Post
#1205208
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

[ZigZig: Where does the Bible say that God is torturing people ?]

Many places. Jesus says it all the time. It’s in Revelation.

moviefreakedmind said:

If you’re looking the Bible verse that literally says “God likes to torture people,” then you’re not going to find it

OK, so the Bible say that God is torturing people in many places, but we’ll not find a single verse that literally says that. All this is perfectly coherent.

moviefreakedmind said:

we all know what the Bible describes hell as.

No we don’t. Well I don’t. Again : citation needed, where is it written that God tortures people?
It is your interpretation, and it’s respectable, but you really have to stop saying that things are clearly written when they are not.
JEDIT: And I understand that Chyron doesn’t want/need to answer, since he does not have the same interpretation of the Gospels as yours.

Post
#1205192
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

So, because I have an opinion of my own, you won’t share yours?

That’s not what I said. I said you will color my answer with assumptions you’re already making to prove your point. And you don’t seem to be asking with the intent of me saying in what way those assumptions are inaccuate.

“I don’t understand.” - Anakin Skywalker

Suffice it to say God is not torturing people.

So the Bible is lying?

Where does the Bible say that God is torturing people ?

Many places. Jesus says it all the time. It’s in Revelation.

Citation needed.

Is that a joke? It is common knowledge how the Bible describes hell. There’s also the Revelation bit where Jesus Christ has the privilege of a front-row seat for watching the torment of those that took the mark of the Beast.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Hell/

OK, some quotes about Hell. But where is it written that God tortures people ? Again : citation needed.

Post
#1205190
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

suspiciouscoffee said:

Technically, God isn’t torturing people in hell even if it is fire ans brimstone. In fact, the Bible’s not really clear on who created hell, but that opens up a whole other can of theological worms.

It is. All things were created through Christ. (John 1)

Well, we definitely don’t have the same Bible. Your quote (“All things were created through Christ”) is not written in John:1. Not written.

John:1:1-6 said:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea it.

It is clear that the Word IS NOT Christ at the beginning, but became Christ later (see John:1,14 : “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us”)

Post
#1205154
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

ZigZig said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

So, because I have an opinion of my own, you won’t share yours?

That’s not what I said. I said you will color my answer with assumptions you’re already making to prove your point. And you don’t seem to be asking with the intent of me saying in what way those assumptions are inaccuate.

“I don’t understand.” - Anakin Skywalker

Suffice it to say God is not torturing people.

So the Bible is lying?

Where does the Bible say that God is torturing people ?

Many places. Jesus says it all the time. It’s in Revelation.

Citation needed.

God apparently tortured Christ himself on the cross if you believe that whole thing about Christ taking God’s punishment for us.

Well, we obviously don’t have the same Bible. AFAIK, Christ IS God (you know, the whole Trinity stuff). So claiming that God tortured Jesus is just a lack of knowledge of dogma, unless you assume that God is masochistic and inflicts pain on Himself. 😃

And again, I’m not saying that I believe it. I’m just saying that we must not make the sacred texts say anything.

Post
#1205148
Topic
Religion
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

So, because I have an opinion of my own, you won’t share yours?

That’s not what I said. I said you will color my answer with assumptions you’re already making to prove your point. And you don’t seem to be asking with the intent of me saying in what way those assumptions are inaccuate.

“I don’t understand.” - Anakin Skywalker

Suffice it to say God is not torturing people.

So the Bible is lying?

Where does the Bible say that God is torturing people ?

Post
#1205146
Topic
Religion
Time

I’m with Chyron on this one.
If Hell simply is separation from God (which is what Jesus basically said, and pope Francis too a few weeks ago), God does not torture anyone. He cannot torture people who are not near Him… they just suffer from being far from God, maybe because they decided to. Being far from God is their torture.

(I don’t say that I believe in this theory, but that does not prevent me from staying logical and knowing what is written in the Gospels)

Post
#1203685
Topic
Religion
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Trident said:

TV’s Frink said:

Hmmm…you believe different than I do? Ok, you’re going to be tortured forever after you die.

Oh, and that other guy who led a terrible life, raped, robbed, murdered, kicked puppies and pushed down old ladies, but accepted Jesus as his savior right at the end? He’s a better person than you are.

Nah, doesn’t seem like a shitty belief system at all.

A guy who accepts getting saved at the end isn’t gonna fool God if he’s not sincere. And if he’s sincere? Why wouldn’t that matter?

I mean how would such a guy have heard of Jesus anyway if not for someone else taking time to point it out to him. Someone who noticed he was on a destructive path and took a lot of effort to help him onto a better one?

I don’t know why you’d be against the idea that even a horrible person could find a way to redeem themselves. I mean can criminals be rehabilitated or not? Should we lock people up forever on a 1st offense? Or should we give them other chances?

A rapist and murderer who legitimately gives his life to Christ is less of a sinner than a homosexual person. That’s just stupid.

FTFY

Post
#1203373
Topic
Religion
Time

Possessed said:

Do you guys think you go to hell if you commit suicide? Asking for a friend

I don’t know if I go to hell if I commit suicide, but I’m sure that my my few friends who committed suicide knew hell on earth and deserve a place in paradise -if there is a paradise…

But come on Possessed, there is no reason to commit suicide before SW Episode IX 😃

Post
#1202440
Topic
Religion
Time

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

moviefreakedmind said:

The latter part regarding the misogyny and anti-gay stuff is the kind of religiosity I’m referring to when I say that we shouldn’t be expected to respect religion. If you think that homosexuality is a crime against god, then I don’t respect your opinion and I don’t think that anyone should respect your opinion. If you believe women shouldn’t be allowed to drive, or should be forced to wrap themselves in burkas and other oppressive garb, then I don’t respect your opinion. The list goes on and on. It doesn’t necessarily mean that I find all of those individuals that think that way to be totally unworthy of respect, but their religious views are. I don’t think that that’s unreasonable and no one else should either.

If I’m allowed to play devil’s advocate (guess chyron needs new representation), it wasn’t long ago that the consensus thought oppositely: that accepting gender norm heresies meant one’s opinion didn’t deserve respect.

The tables have turned on religion, at least in most Western countries, but how are we to grapple with “truth” in an objective way? Is it all about consensus?

How about just letting people live their lives?

People generally don’t do that. They enjoy poking in other peoples’ business and telling them how to think. …Members of this forum are also not exempt.

There’s a big difference between telling you that your opinion on X movie is silly and telling suspiciouscoffee that he shouldn’t be gay because it’s a sin against God and he’s going to hell unless he “converts.”

Yes, there’s a difference between [being civil about] X, and [being mean about] Y. And, speaking for myself, I haven’t said that about coffee. In fact, I have said the reverse—that it’s not directly about the following of rules and that Jesus himself vehemently chastized such self-righteous people.

But people even on this forum often don’t just stop at saying opposing view in general is “silly”. The TLJ Review Thread is evidence enough of that. And that’s my point. Correlation does not imply causation.

There’s no relation or comparison between how religion often treats people different than themselves, and how people act in the TLJ Review Thread. None.

Just because you do not acknowledge the comparison as evidence that people in general can be mean-spirited, that doesn’t mean there isn’t one to be made.

I give up.

No please, don’t.

Post
#1202334
Topic
Religion
Time

TV’s Frink said:

moviefreakedmind said:

The latter part regarding the misogyny and anti-gay stuff is the kind of religiosity I’m referring to when I say that we shouldn’t be expected to respect religion. If you think that homosexuality is a crime against god, then I don’t respect your opinion and I don’t think that anyone should respect your opinion. If you believe women shouldn’t be allowed to drive, or should be forced to wrap themselves in burkas and other oppressive garb, then I don’t respect your opinion. The list goes on and on. It doesn’t necessarily mean that I find all of those individuals that think that way to be totally unworthy of respect, but their religious views are. I don’t think that that’s unreasonable and no one else should either.

It’s perfectly reasonable.

Absolutely. And to be completely fair, these problems (mysogyny, homophobia, gender inequality, etc.) are not the prerogative of religions. Several ideologies, more or less reactionary, more or less liberticidal, and more or less retrograde, also impose reduced freedoms to certain sections of the population, without being guided by religious beliefs (ex: Apartheid, Stalinism and extreme left , Nazism and extreme right …)

While, on the other hand, certain religious figures make things happen, guided by their faith (ex: Desmond Tutu, Mother Teresa, Gandi …)

In short, it’s never simple. All ideologies, whether religious or not, deserve no respect when they treat some parts of the population unequally.

But it is also true that very often, extreme ideologies accomodate with religions to justify their misdeeds. It is therefore necessary to be vigilant with religions as soon as they become ideologies, as soon as they leave the intimacy of a personal faith/relation with God, to become a common shared thing made of rules, judgements and prohibitions.
Well, it is my opinion.

Post
#1202170
Topic
Religion
Time

Mrebo said:

ZigZig said:

Mrebo said:

Zig, what is clear is that your approach does more to obfuscate and impede discussion than chyron’s expression of his certainty. You now seem perhaps somewhat less confused about chyron’s statements so that is progress!

Mrebo, thank you for being so smart. I am sure that the foresight of your interventions will eventually make this thread more clever.

Can’t dispute that.

It is so typical, an ad hominem attack when you have no other argument.

My characterization of your argument (your argument, not you) is not an ad hominem attack. And certainly no different than your characterization of chyron’s views in this thread.

If you say so…
According to your previous post, my approach obfuscates and impedes discussion, but I seem less confused than before. But no ad hominem attack…

I will maybe go further in this discussion with Chyron through PM : his point of view is maybe far from mine but does really interest me. Your sterile posts on this subject are far from that…