Tyrphanax

I haven’t read them but it’s pretty annoying when they just reference the same handful of planets from the movies. I mean you could come up with a thousand original planets with gourmet coffee, but it seemingly has to be one from the movies. It’s like if Han told Luke he looked like he was strong enough to pull the ears off a Tusken Raider or something; instead of an interesting new thing, we just get an old thing again. Make a moon called Kona IX or something, it’s automatically better.

Also it’s pretty clear to me (at least) that the Story Group isn’t really vetting stuff and is just signing off on broad strokes, so it’s literally just the old EU rubber stamp strategy applied to what is mostly garbage again. Sure, we had some good stuff, but for every Thrawn Trilogy, there was a Children of the Jedi and a New Jedi Order and a Courtship of Princess Leia. Yuck. I felt like they were saying they’d be really closely looking at stuff to ensure it all jived and made sense and that would mean there would be a quality control element and we’d have a new EU that was mostly good with some bad, but I suppose not.

DominicCobb said:

canofhumdingers said:

The Rogue Squadron games were always really cool with great environments and neat storylines. But I HATED their control scheme. Having the yaw and roll combined into one control where you effectively made flat turns and could get further away from or closer to the ground but without having true three dimensional freedom always drove me nuts. Especially in the space levels where there is no ground reference! Let me loop, roll, immelman, and split-s 'til my heart’s content dang-it!

Exactly why I would love the people who made the flight mode in Battlefront to work on a new one.

Yeah, I wasn’t a huge fan of the new Battlefront games, but the flight stuff was top notch and getting into the cockpit view felt like being in the movies. Definitely a lot of fun in the beta.

Force Commander, obviously.

TV’s Frink said:

Tyrphanax said:

Hey everybody, Tyr’s back.

Fuck that guy though.

Hey everybody, Leo’s back.

darthrush said:

I wanted to compliment Catbus for his eloquent posting. I am consistently impressed with how well thought out and precise your posts are. The religion thread made me think of this.

Yeah he’s alright I guess.

TV’s Frink said:

dahmage said:

TV’s Frink said:

dahmage said:

Meh

Look at how happy the dog is and tell me you still think that.

Done. What is the next step.

You’re a monster.

No, he’s a mage.

This is a cool thread. I’ve always considered doing what you’ve done, so it’s neat to see how you’re going about it. I like the purist approach, I honestly hadn’t thought of that. Very interesting!

snooker said:

Tyrphanax said:

You’re pretty good.

Pretty… good?

You’re pretty good.

Mine is Iron Man still.

Poita you are a hero.

I’m not saying there’s a precedent, just that you’d expect them to establish some sort of Marvel Cinematic Universe-esque “Guiding Hand” to ensure that the franchise they paid 4.5 billion dollars for doesn’t come out a total mess.

It’s ballsy. But so far I’m not impressed.

darthrush said:

NeverarGreat said:

But Rey’s introduction was also an all-timer. The first third of that movie, really, is just great.

This. This. This. This.

Like seriously, the first third of TFA, especially Rey’s introduction, is just beautiful. Part of why I left the theater feeling like I really enjoyed it (an amazing first third, and an ok 2/3), but still feeling underwhelmed and I think it was because of how awesome that first third was.

Great point, I think that’s about where I land as well. The first third is super exciting and new, and the rest is just… short of the mark a bit. Storywise. The characters carry us through all that at least.

Ryan-SWI said:

TV’s Frink said:

Ryan-SWI said:

TV’s Frink said:

Ryan-SWI said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mocata said:

Hahaha YES. The comedy I’ve been waiting for.

All three prequels above ESB. And we’re supposed to ignore these posts. Lol.

I mean you think the ST are good films so if we’re gonna start taking cheap shots two can play at that game.

I don’t rank them above ESB so your point is irrelevant.

Right. I forgot dissenting opinions aren’t allowed. We should just all post an identical ranking over and over again to stilt discussion, because it’s not like this is a forum or anything.

Here’s an actual question for you…why do you consider all three theatrical prequels better than Empire Strikes Back?

If you’re actually wondering why, I’ll bite.

I’m not going to comment on why I think ROTS is better purely because I feel that film has enough defenders as is; I’m sure you disagree with them, but you’ve probably heard arguments for the film time and time again, so there’s no point repeating them. Dumbing it down, I think it’s both visually and emotionally more impactful, while having a more interesting plot and contributing more to the saga’s lore as a whole; but that’s just my opinion.

As for TPM and AOTC being ranked higher?
First of all I want to make one thing clear; I think on a technical level, one based purely on physical filmmaking and nothing else; ESB is undoubtedly the best Star Wars film. Its direction, artistry and dare I say, acting, is unmatched to this day.

However, that’s not all I look for in a Star Wars film. I’ve always been more concerned with the overall story of the saga of films I - VI than technical details. You can disagree with this notion and that’s fine, but that’s just my preference.

I think the world-building, the expansion of the lore and the incredibly detailed plot of TPM and AOTC far outweigh that of the OT. Do I think the execution is better? No. The execution of the OT (At least ANH and ESB), is fantastic. The execution of the Prequels? Not so much. But I much prefer an interesting experience over a play by the numbers one; there are plenty of ‘legendary’ films that hit all the technical beats, but few as interesting as the prequels.

I’m not going super in-depth because I’ve spent years on this site frequently just getting trolled for my viewpoints so I don’t want to pump heaps of time into a response, so I’m trying to keep it simple.

Essentially what I’m saying is that everyone pulls different things from Star Wars. Some people are just interested in seeing the best technically made film possible, and that’s totally fine. If we’re judging the films purely on those merits I’d say TFA is better than ROTJ, but that’s not all I personally care about.

I know it gets made fun of a lot but I personally think George’s vision for a one complete story told over six films is incredibly interesting and valuable, and I view all six films as one large piece, so I judge them more on what they add to the overall story than what I do as an individual work of art.

If you disagree, totally cool, this kind of thing is subjective, but that’s just where I stand.

Good post. Interesting to hear a different viewpoint that’s decently well-founded.

Ryan-SWI said:

Jay said:

TLJ has none of that mystery because it picks up literally where the previous installment leaves off, and that’s J.J.'s fault because he just had to have his dramatic ending and couldn’t tell a complete story

I really, really disagree with that and I don’t understand why its become such a common argument for TLJ.

Rian wasn’t forced into anything by JJ, especially not making TLJ to pick up right where TFA left off, mere seconds later.

There was no reason Rian couldn’t have done a time jump, and he should have. Even if by only a month or two; the time jump between TPM and AOTC was 10 years and it benefited greatly from it from a storytelling perspective. Literally every other Star Wars film has had a time jump. Yes JJ put in a cliffhanger ending instead of rounding it off, but the story still could have gone in any direction.

Rian was definitely forced to do certain things based on the way things had played out in TFA, but a lack of a time jump isn’t one of them.

I wouldn’t say he was forced to write a certain way because of what J.J. did, I just think that J.J. left things so open-ended that Rian was allowed too much leeway to take liberties with things and it leaves the two movies feeling a bit disconnected.

Had J.J. laid down some more concrete foundations and had anyone actually had a plan as to where the saga was going to go and where it would end up, it would all make more sense.

DominicCobb said:

Tyrphanax said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

I really liked Kylo Ren in both movies too, but TFA Kylo and TLJ Kylo feel like they’re not even the same incarnation of the character. I do love him in both TFA and TLJ though.

Really? I’m interested to hear why. I feel like his overall arc between two movies is compelling and really well bridged. Everything that motivates him and drives him seems consistent throughout and he plays it as such. I’ll admit that him in the Last Jedi is so much better than him in TFA, but mainly cause of the richer material that the character had to work with in the middle installment of the trilogy.

I was being a bit hyperbolic. Rian apparently decided to ignore the Vader wannabe aspect of the character, which was a major part of Kylo, so that kind of passes the message that he wanted to just not care as much about consistency to me.

I should rewatch TLJ and TFA maybe back to back once I get my TLJ Blu-ray and think more about the matter, but yeah, that’s mainly what I’m talkig about. I believe there’s more but I can’t think of anything right now.

He didn’t ignore that aspect at all, it’s a big part of his character in TLJ.

I do recall two scenes where they address it - the first Snoke x Kylo scene, and the one where he destroys his helmet

Which informs his later actions.

Those scenes are where Kylo stops being what everyone is afraid of/hopes he is (Vader’s Legacy, which he wasn’t very good at pretending to be) and becomes himself, which is actually a little bit closer to Vader than he was before. And, honestly, much scarier than his previous Vader-wannabe persona.

Everyone comparing him to Vader his whole life has made him into what he is now.

Exactly exactly. First it was Luke trying to make him not Vader, then Snoke trying to make him nuVader. What he does here is “kill the past,” and forges his own path.

Yeah, I meant to mention that’s why he’s suddenly so into “killing the past.” Every time he destroys or loses a part of his past, he’s able to be more himself. He’s lived his whole life under the spectre of Vader: whether people were trying to exploit his lineage or suppress it. Luke and Leia were afraid of it, Snoke wanted to control that power for his own. He’s never been allowed to be himself, and once Snoke is dead, he’s suddenly freed from another part of that past and he realizes “if I can get rid of all of this, I’ll be free from this expectation.”

That’s why Rey is so important to him: she’s nobody. She doesn’t care where he came from, she’s not interested in his lineage. She’s an outsider and really the first person to see him as him and not “Vader’s Heir.”

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

I really liked Kylo Ren in both movies too, but TFA Kylo and TLJ Kylo feel like they’re not even the same incarnation of the character. I do love him in both TFA and TLJ though.

Really? I’m interested to hear why. I feel like his overall arc between two movies is compelling and really well bridged. Everything that motivates him and drives him seems consistent throughout and he plays it as such. I’ll admit that him in the Last Jedi is so much better than him in TFA, but mainly cause of the richer material that the character had to work with in the middle installment of the trilogy.

I was being a bit hyperbolic. Rian apparently decided to ignore the Vader wannabe aspect of the character, which was a major part of Kylo, so that kind of passes the message that he wanted to just not care as much about consistency to me.

I should rewatch TLJ and TFA maybe back to back once I get my TLJ Blu-ray and think more about the matter, but yeah, that’s mainly what I’m talkig about. I believe there’s more but I can’t think of anything right now.

He didn’t ignore that aspect at all, it’s a big part of his character in TLJ.

I do recall two scenes where they address it - the first Snoke x Kylo scene, and the one where he destroys his helmet

Which informs his later actions.

Those scenes are where Kylo stops being what everyone is afraid of/hopes he is (Vader’s Legacy, which he wasn’t very good at pretending to be) and becomes himself, which is actually a little bit closer to Vader than he was before. And, honestly, much scarier than his previous Vader-wannabe persona.

Everyone comparing him to Vader his whole life has made him into what he is now.

Jay said:

Tyrphanax said:

It hurts TFA in my mind, too, because it calls attention to the parts I didn’t like most about that movie and I don’t feel like it was enough of an evolution from TFA to right those wrongs. It just feels like additional footage from TFA stretched over two hours with these massive character-defining moments in the trilogy sprinkled in that don’t have the impact they should because we’re not far enough away from TFA.

Part of the drama in ESB and ROTJ is that those films start off with some time having passed since the previous installment. There are new and different things we have yet to discover about what happened while we were away.

And frankly I think that’s why TFA works for a lot of people. We get a story that kicks off decades after the last one. What’s happened since then? Who are these people today? How have they changed since we last met? That’s exciting.

TLJ has none of that mystery because it picks up literally where the previous installment leaves off, and that’s J.J.'s fault because he just had to have his dramatic ending and couldn’t tell a complete story, which is his MO. He’s great at starting stories, but not so great at finishing them.

And yet somehow we still don’t know these new characters or their world very well. Over 4.5 hours of storytelling and how we got from ROTJ to TFA/TLJ is largely a mystery.

After letting it settle a bit more, for me the biggest failure was not kicking off the new trilogy with our favorite characters on one last adventure, even if it were a brief one. I’m not saying give the old characters 90% of the screen time and let the new ones hang around as window dressing; the new characters need to stand on their own. But having access to Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Threepio, and R2 and not putting them on screen together one last time was a massive miss.

I applaud Rian’s risks and what he was able to do with what he was given, though. He could’ve handed in a boring retread and instead he went for it.

Totally agree.

TV’s Frink said:

Tyrphanax said:

TV’s Frink said:

It looks to me like they tried to make her look younger. But whatever, IMO she looks completely different in that shot than in the rest of the movie, however they did it or whatever their intention was. And it looks bad.

I’m with you on this one. Definitely looks not good.

Oh no you don’t.

Just this once?

This might have been up here before.

TV’s Frink said:

It looks to me like they tried to make her look younger. But whatever, IMO she looks completely different in that shot than in the rest of the movie, however they did it or whatever their intention was. And it looks bad.

I’m with you on this one. Definitely looks not good.

Tyrphanax said:

1. Star Wars — Weaker than Empire in terms of story and depth, but totally self-contained and so much fun. I can just throw this on when I need a comfort film. 5/5 (in Star Wars terms)
2. The Empire Strikes Back — The strongest entry to date. In my world, definitely cinema’s strongest sequel. Expands the characters, sets up a big universe, introduces great new characters (especially Boba Fett) and locations, doesn’t take a dump on the romance, and has a whole new and deeper wonder to it than the first film. 5(.5?)/5
3. Return of the Jedi — This is only so far up because of its place wrapping up the story of the OT. The duel between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor save the film. The rest of it is rehashed or phoned-in. Feels more like a contract film than the passion of Star Wars and Empire. 4/5
4. Rogue One — Probably the best of the Post-Lucas Star Wars films. It’s nostalgic, it has a (mostly) tight, solid story that fits (mostly) flush with the universe of the OT that we all know backwards and forwards, and does a good job of expanding that universe without feeling too forced. Is it safe? Hell yes. Is it fan service? In many ways. Is that really such a bad thing? I don’t think so. I enjoy the hell out of this movie. If you don’t pump your fist when the X-Wings show up on Eadu, you may not have a pulse. 3.5/5
5. The Force Awakens — I was really all for TFA when it dropped originally. I loved the characters even if the story was a rehash of a rehash, even having to relearn the state of the galaxy during the runtime, and even dealing with Abrams’ unsolved mysteries. But the more I thought about it, the more the issues outweighed the good. I was starting to come around on it again before the release of TLJ, but now it has been dragged down by TLJ not living up to the promise of TFA. 3.5/5
6. The Last Jedi — I really wanted to be blown away by this movie. I tried to be blown away by it three times in theaters and more than a few times at home, but it just falls short of the mark. It lands among the Prequel Trilogy for me: good ideas, interesting characters, not taking the safe route, but not executed well. I wish they’d gone a bit safer. 3/5
7. Revenge of the Sith — This is only as high as it is because of the potential of the basic story and the culmination of Anakin’s fall. It’s definitely the strongest of the PT, but it’s still weak. The quality gap between Jedi and Awakens is almost non-existant, the gap between Awakens and Sith is a good deal more than 12 parsecs. 3/5
8. The Phantom Menace — I feel like this is the only PT film that has a Star Wars feel to it, because they used actual locations and props extensively. However, it’s also the only PT film that doesn’t really fit in the “Saga”. This is an Anthology film and nothing more. 2.5/5
9. Attack of the Clones — This goes way down here because it’s frankly crap, especially when it should be one of the biggest and best films of the Saga. The Clone Wars we’ve heard so much about don’t start until the last quarter of the film, and then end in the next film. There was potential, and much like the entire PT, the basic story concepts are good but executed terribly. 2/5

The Holiday Special and the Clone Wars film I won’t count as The Holiday Special was TV-only, and the Clone Wars “film” was basically just two episodes of the show, one of which was one of the worst of the entire series and the other wasn’t particularly strong, there were arcs much more deserving of being in theaters than what was.

I still haven’t sat down and watched the Ewok films. I think that’s about it in terms of what’s out there.

I think this is my most recent post in here with an actual ranking so let’s amend The Last Jedi and Rogue One in there and update scores.

ChainsawAsh said:

I also disagree that TFA Kylo and TLJ Kylo feel any different, but I can’t say the same for Hux. Felt like they pulled a “Last Crusade” Marcus Brody on him for TLJ.

They definitely did just that.

Captain Canady was about five times the character that Hux was in TLJ and had a fraction of the screen time.

The more I let it percolate and the more I think about it, the more TLJ ends up in a sort of Prequel-ish area for me, in terms of my opinion about it:

I get what they were going for, there were interesting story points that are good when you boil them down to their base elements, and it had some great bits… but they just dropped the ball on the execution.

And it sucks because I came out of TFA super hyped for more story, and I shrugged off all the “rehash” bits at the time because, eh, it was one movie, it got wrapped up quick enough, the characters were great, and we had a great jumping-off point for more about the characters, and that’s what I was interested in.

But I walked out of TLJ with the joy completely sucked out of me, and not in a “second movie, Empire Strikes Back-dark” kinda way, just a “wait… did I not like that movie?” way. I don’t really need to go into why because that’s all been picked apart and debated to pieces ad nauseam, but it just stood in such stark contrast to the excitement I felt after TFA. I watched it three more times in theaters and couldn’t get into it: I read positive articles and reviews and listened to podcasts about it, and they would get my hyped up to a point where I would be thinking “Okay maybe I was wrong, let’s try again” and I’d go in to see it again and it would just suck the wind right out of my sails again.

And I totally get all the positive arguments about it because every time I hear them or talk about them, I get excited about the movie again, and there are people I know and like whose thoughts and opinions about film I really trust and agree with who like it, but at this point, I’ve steeped myself in the story so much that there’s nothing about the story or the characters or the writing that I’m not understanding or not getting and I’m honestly okay with the idea of subverting our expectations about characters and their arcs… I just… don’t like it, I guess. It’s super disappointing for me.

It hurts TFA in my mind, too, because it calls attention to the parts I didn’t like most about that movie and I don’t feel like it was enough of an evolution from TFA to right those wrongs. It just feels like additional footage from TFA stretched over two hours with these massive character-defining moments in the trilogy sprinkled in that don’t have the impact they should because we’re not far enough away from TFA.

I’m not holding out much hope for IX or the end of the trilogy right now. Especially not with J.J. coming back. And I honestly lay a lot of the blame for TLJ on him and the way Lucasfilm has handled the franchise in terms of not having a guiding voice for the trilogy and apparently letting each director do their own thing. J.J. didn’t set up for a sequel well enough, and Rian (who I think is a great director and a great person) was too free to just go nuts with it.

Kudos, I guess, to Lucasfilm for gambling with a movie like TLJ and not just going the super safe route, I guess? But I honestly wish they’d gone a bit safer.