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StarChewyWar

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30-Sep-2015
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3-Jan-2016
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Post
#892821
Topic
SPOILERS Rewrite The Force Awakens
Time

Alderaan said:

StarChewyWar said:
Dude, you really need to do your research. The vision of the Force Awakens? To bring back the magic of Star Wars when the cynicism of the prequels and special editions scared it off. JJ Abrams is just like us. A fan. He loves Star Wars, and wants nothing more than replicate the magic of the original trilogy. So he used practical effects, shot it on 35mm film, wrote it with Lawrence Kasdan(writer of Empire Strikes Back and Indiana Jones), composed it with John Williams, used the aethstetics of Ralph McQuarrie, and made sure George Lucas was not involved at all. He didn’t have to do these things. Its similarities with the original Star Wars is not because lack of imagination but love.

That’s great. Those were all great choices. But all of those choices should have been a means, not an end.

StarChewyWar said:
Plotholes don’t matter.

You started a screenwriting thread to say this? Sorry for wasting my time in here.

StarChewyWar said:
The Dark Knight trilogy has billions of plotholes, yet it is one of the most critically acclaimed sagas of all time, up there with the original Star Wars trilogy.

lol

I’ve explained before. Since you are such a screenwriting guru, can you tell me the difference between Story and Plot? Story is what matters most. It is the emotional value of the story. Plot is just what happens. Plot doesn’t matter. Even the greats like Alfred Hitchcock and Stanley Kubrick don’t give a donkey’s butt about plot. Seen 2001 A Space Oddysey? It starts off with a bunch of monkeys. Then a monolith shows up for some reason. One monkey starts using bones, and then we flashforward to the future. In the future, a guy finds another monolith, and we flashforward again. Now it’s about an AI(artificial intelligence) who went rogue and killed all except one. That one guy goes into a wormhole and sees a bunch of weird stuff. Then he ends up in a bedroom and keeps seeing and becoming his older self until he dies and becomes a space baby. That was the plot. If plot really mattered, 2001 A Space Oddysey would not be considered one of the greatest science fiction movies of all time. The story is what really matters. It makes you think about evolution and life and how you define it.

Way to be a jerk and not even try to argue back.

This post has been edited.

Post
#892653
Topic
SPOILERS Rewrite The Force Awakens
Time

Alderaan said:

So anyway, picking up where I left off … having a vision. My philosophy is that you can’t write a script without an outline, you can’t write an outline without a treatment, you can’t write a treatment without a story, and you can’t write a story without a vision.

What should The Force Awakens have really been about?

I was struck by the first trailer I saw in early 2015:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCc2v7izk8w

Prior to seeing that trailer, I had no interest in the new Disney trilogy. I thought the story was over, it had already been told, and all I cared about was “just give me the damn OOT”.

But then I saw that trailer (it was awesome), and I thought, you know what? Yeah, a new generation of young people should have their own Star Wars too. I was sold on the idea of passing the torch to the next generation.


So what gives with the story we got? I think Luke Skywalker should have played the mentor role and not Han Solo. Harrison Ford was terrific in this movie, no question. He wasn’t old Harrison Ford; he was Han Solo, just like old times. But what was his role in the film? Why have him (instead of Luke) act as a father figure for Rey? Especially since it seems like Luke is going to teach her in the next movie anyway.

And so, I think, that makes TFA look like a pointless 2 hour 16 minute setup just to kill off Han Solo.

Gratuitous. A freakin’ waste of time.

Look, I know Harrison took down $25 million, and everyone else only made $400k - $1.5 million, so this was his show. Maybe he told Disney that he would only come back if they granted him his decades long wish and killed off his character, I don’t know, but it was just bad storytelling. An actor’s salary and prestige, mandates from studio execs … these things should never conspire to ruin what otherwise could have been a fantastic story.

So that’s the first thing I would have changed … I would have sidelined Han, and made Luke the mentor to Rey.

Why would I have done that? Because Han was the skeptic in the OT, that was the nature of his character. By the conclusion of ROTJ, he was no longer a skeptic. His arc had been completed. He missed out on his chance to martyr. After everything he went through in three films, on screen over and over again with Luke, Leia, and Chewie, the people he (and we) loved the most … how could any death with someone he was in one scene with yield any emotional impact whatsoever?

Han just hogged screen time in TFA, and the idea of Kylo being his son was terrible and a monumental waste of time.


So now that we’ve established that Luke should have been the mentor and father figure in TFA, what about the new cast of characters? Here’s what I would have done …

First, Rey should’ve been and was the main character in the story. I would have written her as a brave young woman, strong in the force, but untrained, and unrelated to any other character in the story. She needs a teacher, and until she’s fully trained, she needs someone to keep her safe from the First Order.

Finn’s character is more problematic, but I think I could’ve still worked with the idea that he was a mutinous stormtrooper stranded on Jakku. One thing I would have changed though is that I would NOT have had him fleeing Kylo’s and Captain Phasma’s unit. The nature of his desertion did not need to be shown on screen. Rey just meets him on Jakku and that’s the first time we see him (we’ll get to that in my synopsis), and I would have made his character more mysterious, harder to trust and pin down. He should have been the morally gray character, the skeptic, the Han Solo of this movie. That kind of characterization would have been more believable (given his background), and it would have made his good deeds all that more heroic later on down the line.

Poe Dameron, meanwhile, was billed as a main character, but he was absent from most of the film. As a result, the writers and director turned him into a cartoon. Instead of giving him screen time and scenes to show him bonding and evolving with the rest of the cast in a believable way, they tried to tell us over and over again how awesome he was. Out of all the good characters we’ve ever had in Star Wars, Poe Dameron is my least favorite by far.

So…how to fix him? Well, I would have introduced him later in the film. The opening sequence was completely unnecessary. Somewhere later in the film, maybe around the midpoint, I would have had him join the team. Dameron’s character should also have been more downplayed (at least until he’s more important in future films), and I would have liked to see him suspicious of Finn, you know, kind of like how Luke and Han were frenemies throughout much of the first movie. That dynamic could have paid off in spades.

Last you have the villains: Kylo Ren, Captain Phasma, General Hux, and Snoke. First of all, I would have completely cut Snoke and General Hux out of the story. Those two characters are worse than useless. Kylo should’ve been unrelated to any of the legacy cast members, and I like the idea of Kylo and Phasma operating as teammates and co-villains. That would have given Phasma more presence, and not turned her into a total joke in the film.


Finally, what about the setting? The world of the story, in my opinion, really completes the idea of the vision.

I loved the opening shot in that trailer, with Rey speeding past the hazy wreckage of the Star Destroyer and the X-wing lying in the background. What a fantastic shot. The war between the Empire and the Rebellion has long since passed, but has the galaxy been at peace for the last thirty years? No!

Power vacuums don’t lead to peace and prosperity – they lead to more conflict. That’s good, because we need conflict for stories. In my world for TFA, the New Republic is in the process of installing peace and order throughout the galaxy, but there are still dangerous elements out there – terrorists, gangsters / criminals, evil breakaway organizations, etc.

And TFA seems to have been going in that direction with The First Order. Well done.

But what’s the angle here? What’s the last piece of the puzzle that makes the First Order’s antagonism so compelling? This is where we come back to the idea of the vision.

If Skywalker and the rest of our legacy heroes are trying to pass the torch to the next generation, then the antagonists, The First Order, have to be doing the opposite. They should be preying on people’s fears of chaos and disorder, and trying to bring back the days of The Empire. General Leia Organa, General Solo, Admiral Ackbar, Lando Calrissian(?) … these people should all be leading the forces of the New Republic, not something called “The Resistance”.

Luke should not be hiding somewhere like a coward – he should be looking to find and train any new potential Jedi (Rey, hint hint). The First Order should be trying to rewrite history. Discredit heroes. Prevent new ones from rising.


In my next and hopefully final post, I’ll offer a synopsis for my TFA-Revised story. Stay tuned.

Luke being Rey’s mentor is predictable and bland. The logical course of the stories of all the major players in the OT is that Luke teaches a Jedi Academy, Leia and Han have kids, and the remnants of the Empire band together. Yawn. If Leia is force sensitive, then her kid might be too. Since having a bunch of goody goody Jedi cadets like in the prequels would be boring, have one of them go evil and luckily we have the perfect candidate : Ben Solo AKA Kylo Ren. How would our heroes react? Hmm, well Leia and Han’s relationship would fall to ruin and Luke would feel really guilty and isolate himself. Leia wants to find Luke, and boom! Story of Kylo Ren.

Luke doesn’t hide because he’s a coward. He hides because of guilt and pain. Also, Harrison Ford is returning for Episode 8. He hates George Lucas more than Star Wars itself.

Your characters are also predictable and bland. Do we really need a mystery surrounding Finn? Mysteries are boring, and it’s counter intuitive to not know anything about one of your main characters. Your Rey is like a shonen anime character. Just training to defeat my enemies. Poe Dameron is not a main character. That would be Finn, Rey, and Kylo Ren. Why do you think he isn’t fleshed out in the trailers while the aforemention three are?

Kylo Ren being a villain because villainy reasons is just like the prequels. In the movie, Kylo Ren is not a faceless evil-doer. He’s a human being who’s so lost his morality is backwards. Unlike Vader, he’s not an unstoppable force. He’s an insane fanatic who worships a burnt mask, punches his wounds, and KILLS his father. Han’s death was great. Everything from the lack of music to the performance of Adam Driver was fantastic. Did you understand any of the subtle drama that was in the movie or do you need it to be like the prequels, where it’s made obvious to the point of detriment.

The only thing that I didn’t like about TFA was that we didn’t know enough about Rey and that’s IT. It leads perfectly into a sequel though.

Post
#892649
Topic
SPOILERS Rewrite The Force Awakens
Time

Alderaan said:

StarChewyWar said:
All things considered, The Force Awakens did a good job with the story.

I disagree with this. I think the overall look of the film – the designs, the non-CGI-monster effects, etc. – was tremendous. The acting was hit or miss. The film’s biggest problem was the story. What was the film’s vision? What did it want to accomplish?

Sometimes you get a film and the filmmaker(s) vision is to tell such-and-such story in such-and-such way. Sometimes their vision is to push a political message. Sometimes you get a snob whose vision is simply to create the most artsy film ever. Sometimes you get a film where the filmmaker just wants to entertain people. And on and on we can think of countless examples.

My takeaway from TFA was that the vision of this film had nothing to do with story, or innovation, or anything that has been traditionally Star Wars’ forte. The vision of this film seemed to be simply to make another Star Wars movie, have it be good enough to not piss people off, and make a lot of money. Introduce some interesting new characters, bring back old and beloved characters, and just have fun and a good time.

Was the film a success? Certainly. By all measures, it seems to have accomplished its goals. Those goals started with the studio execs who chose the director, and JJ Abrams is someone who – I’ve heard this from a lot of people – is a safe bet. He’s unlikely to make anything really good, but he’s also unlikely to make anything bad. If you want to take a franchise like Star Wars and make a safe ripoff, he’s a steady choice. He more or less accomplished what was expected of him, the film is making a record amount of money, and he additionally, to his credit, he had the right approach in several areas to gain extra goodwill with the fans.

But what about the story?

It’s actually terrible and the weakest part of the film. There are a million plot holes. There are a million coincidences. It’s derivative. It’s poorly paced and chaotic. It just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

I’ve offered criticism in the review threads (and I’ve also praised a lot of things I thought the film did really well), but in my next post I will offer some ideas on how I might have written it differently, just for fun.

Dude, you really need to do your research. The vision of the Force Awakens? To bring back the magic of Star Wars when the cynicism of the prequels and special editions scared it off. JJ Abrams is just like us. A fan. He loves Star Wars, and wants nothing more than replicate the magic of the original trilogy. So he used practical effects, shot it on 35mm film, wrote it with Lawrence Kasdan(writer of Empire Strikes Back and Indiana Jones), composed it with John Williams, used the aethstetics of Ralph McQuarrie, and made sure George Lucas was not involved at all. He didn’t have to do these things. Its similarities with the original Star Wars is not because lack of imagination but love. This isn’t Jurassic World.

Plotholes don’t matter. The Dark Knight trilogy has billions of plotholes, yet it is one of the most critically acclaimed sagas of all time, up there with the original Star Wars trilogy. I think the story was great. Kylo Ren is probably a better villain than Darth Vader(because of the prequels). Coincedences that get people out of trouble are bad, but coincedences that get people into trouble are great. Coincedentally, they meet Han Solo and then get attacked by two gangs and evil squid aliens. Coincedentally, Rey meets Finn and then they get attacked by the First Order. I could go on.

Post
#892357
Topic
Will the anthology films be a repeat of the prequels?
Time

DominicCobb said:

StarChewyWar said:

SilverWook said:

The original Han Solo novels are backstory, but well written and a lot of fun. It’s sad Brian Daley isn’t around to pen a script, as he knew what made Han tick.

Rogue One feels like it might be in the vein of a World War II action movie. Somewhere between The Dirty Dozen and The Guns of Navarone. Knowing who won the war or a certain battle doesn’t mean you can’t tell a compelling tale against that backdrop.

Boba Fett could go in just about any direction. If they stick to the concept he operates by a code, he can be a bad ass, ruthless, and still have the audience on his side. And maybe they will have the guts to never show what he really looks like. The few EU novels I read had him using disguises on occasion to track down a quarry.

Doesn’t matter how good it is. It’s still backstory. Backstory is not good because it’s already been spoiled. I just hope they take the time to do more than flesh out the backstory.

Nope. SilverWook is completely right. Just because you know the outcome (or a part of it) doesn’t mean the story or the film is bad or not worth telling. I’m not saying the anthology movies are going to have stories that are completely worthwhile (I’m optimistic, but a little skeptical myself) but to just say without any doubt that they’re not good because they’re backstory is ridiculous and quite narrow-minded.

Well, maybe you are right. I just hope the Anthology films are good.

Post
#892120
Topic
Will the anthology films be a repeat of the prequels?
Time

TavorX said:

StarChewyWar said:
Uh, sorry to tell you, but the Old Republic is no longer canon. RIP Darth Revan and Darth Bane.

There’s no official word from Disney. It’s in the grey zone for now since it’s story related material that doesn’t contradict the main films/new canon.

But what I’m saying is that good Star Wars stories CAN be told when they’re set far apart from the main films. Something either set far in the future or far in the past.

Yes, there was. Everything as of 2014 that are not the six movies and the Clone Wars show and movie are not canon. It’s almost 2016 now I know, so obviously the Force Awakens and Rebels and the new Expanded Universe are canon. Besides that, an Old Republic anthology would step on the toes of the prequels, and nobody wants to be reminded of the prequels.

Post
#892115
Topic
Will the anthology films be a repeat of the prequels?
Time

TavorX said:

I really wish these Anthology films could explore Star Wars stories that weren’t so closely tied to the films. Luscasfilm went back 4,000 years before our main Star Wars story takes place and really knocked it out of the park!

For now, I’m sitting on the fence. I welcome well written character driven Star Wars stories (since that’s what these films will have to pull off when we know the overall story outcome), but if it fails to deliver… well whatever I guess. They tried!

Uh, sorry to tell you, but the Old Republic is no longer canon. RIP Darth Revan and Darth Bane.

Post
#892113
Topic
Will the anthology films be a repeat of the prequels?
Time

SilverWook said:

The original Han Solo novels are backstory, but well written and a lot of fun. It’s sad Brian Daley isn’t around to pen a script, as he knew what made Han tick.

Rogue One feels like it might be in the vein of a World War II action movie. Somewhere between The Dirty Dozen and The Guns of Navarone. Knowing who won the war or a certain battle doesn’t mean you can’t tell a compelling tale against that backdrop.

Boba Fett could go in just about any direction. If they stick to the concept he operates by a code, he can be a bad ass, ruthless, and still have the audience on his side. And maybe they will have the guts to never show what he really looks like. The few EU novels I read had him using disguises on occasion to track down a quarry.

Doesn’t matter how good it is. It’s still backstory. Backstory is not good because it’s already been spoiled. I just hope they take the time to do more than flesh out the backstory.

Post
#892051
Topic
Will the anthology films be a repeat of the prequels?
Time

Up until recently, I though the anthology series was a great idea. Now, not so much. In a tumblr blog called Star Wars 1999(project to rewrite the prequels), he lists one of the many failings of the prequels : it’s backstory, NOT story. All the prequels do is retell the fall of Anakin in more detail. Doesn’t matter how well done it is, it’s still more of what we already know. It makes me question whether or not we even need prequels, and if we might be better off if “Episode 5 : The Empire Strikes Back” should have just been called “The Empire Strikes Back”.

Look at the anthology films in progress

  1. Rogue One : How the Rebels captured the plans for the Death Star
  2. Han Solo : How Han Solo became the person we met in the Mos Eisley cantina
  3. Boba Fett : How Boba Fett… became Boba Fett
  4. Probably maybe Obi Wan but I feel that bird flew in Episode 3 and it would just be overly melodramatic and it steps on prequel territory(this movie isn’t happening)

They are ALL backstory. We already know the rebels got the plans for the Death Star. We already know Han Solo is a smuggler. We already Boba Fett is awesome. Do we really need movies just fleshing out details?

Rogue One is the biggest offender. Maybe if it has good characters with stories we haven’t seen yet, it might not be backstory. Hopefully, it won’t be like Star Wars Rebels where every character is “Oh, the Empire did something bad to me. That’s my motivation for being a Rebel”.

Han Solo might have some potential for us to have a new story, but I think it’ll be very similar to his arc in the original trilogy. He goes from selfish smuggler to hero. Make it more like “A Good Story That Just Happens To Have Young Han Solo As The Main Character” and not “Han Solo Begins”.

Boba Fett is likely to have the most potential for an all-new story. Since the prequels sucked all the mystery about him, an anthology about him doesn’t bother me that much. All we know is that he’s a clone, his dad died, and he became a bounty hunter, feared across the galaxy. Clones(at least in real life) have very short lifespans, so maybe ALL the clones are dying, Boba Fett included, and the movie is about him trying to survive. How would Boba Fet t react to the fact that his dead father was cloned, and none of the clones recognize him. It could even include him getting out of the Sarlaac and somehow redeeming himself afterward.

tl:dr The prequels sucked cause they were just backstory and not story, and the anthology movies are all prequels.

Post
#891366
Topic
SPOILERS Rewrite The Force Awakens
Time

StarChewyWar said:

StarChewyWar said:
Here are the unanswered questions for Episode 8 :

  1. Why is there a map to Luke?
  2. Will Luke train Rey?
  3. How did Kylo Ren become seduced by Supreme Leader Snoke?
  4. Who are the Knights of Ren?
  5. Who is Supreme Leader Snoke?
  6. How will Captain Phasma have a bigger role?
  7. Will Finn and Rey fall in love?
  8. Why was Rey orphaned on Jakku?
  9. Who are Rey’s parents?
  10. How did R2D2 wake up when he did?

Now here’s my Episode 8. Before Ben Solo went evil, Luke found a map to an ancient Sith temple which he investigated and found the secret to immortality and mastery of life. That’s how Ben Solo became evil : Snoke wants to become immortal and master life like Plageus. Snoke tells Ben of the legend of the Knights of Ren who wanted immortality but failed(“ren” means life in an alien language and "kylo means master so “Kylo Ren” means Master of Life). When Ben goes evil, he creates the new Knights of Ren with other immortality lusting bad guys to finish what Darth Vader started. Yes, Darth Vader was trying to master life and achieve immortality during the OT. Is it really that much of a stretch? He did try to stop his wife from dying in ROTS and although the Emperor may be wise to it due to seeing his master Plageus fail, Vader isn’t. It also explains why he still sticked with the Emperor after his wife died, because he still has hope for reviving his wife and reuniting with his family. It’s one hell of a retcon but really humanizes Vader even more!

Back to Luke, he rips the map into little pieces so that nobody will learn the secret to immortality and hid in on the planet of the temple in order to guard it. The Resistance and the First Order mistake the pieces for a map to just Luke and do everything Luke wants not to happen by trying to find him. That’s why Luke has such a puzzled look at the end of the movie because he’s not sure what to think of Rey. Maybe R2D2 was actually manipulated by Snoke to wake up and lead the First Order to Luke Skywalker.

Let’s get into the present. Kylo Ren is being tortured, taunted, and “trained” by Snoke. The Dark Side feeds on anger and fear, so this how Sith are trained. Here we learn about the ultimate goal of the Knights of Ren and Snoke : immortality, and we also meet the Knights of Ren themselves. Cut back to Luke and Rey. “Rey? Why are you here?” Luke demands. “Because you called me.” Rey replies. “I didn’t-” Luke is interrupted by Kylo Ren’s ship landing. “Oh, no”.

TO BE CONTINUED

Cause this is seriously getting long

Since the Hosnian system(goverment of the Republic) was destroyed by the Starkiller Base, there has been a power vacuum in the galaxy. Various factions have emerged that are struggling for power in the galaxy including the First Order. Poe Dameron is sent to stop all out war in the Galaxy.

Quoted above are my previous posts about Episode 8 : The Force Eats Breakfast(temporary title). Now here’s some new stuff.

When the First Order and the Knights of Ren arrived to kill Luke Skywalker, the Resistance retaliates immediately and an epic battle ensues. On the ground, Kylo Ren has his comeback against Rey. Even with the help of Luke, she doesn’t stand a chance. Overwhelmed, Luke and Rey narrowly escape though as a last ditch attempt, Luke tries to destroy the Sith temple. Suspicious of Luke’s actions, the Knights of Ren find what they’ve been searching for for so long : the secret to immortality.

Back with the Resistance, Rey asks Luke how he knew her. Luke tells her that he trained her, but she doesn’t remember because she has a mind block. Luke tries to remove the mind block and she remembers being a student at the Jedi Acedemy before Kylo Ren destroyed it all. Throughout the movie this will be her main motivation : getting back at Kylo Ren for ruining her life basically. But not everything is what it seems.

Post
#890735
Topic
SPOILERS Rewrite The Force Awakens
Time

StarChewyWar said:
Here are the unanswered questions for Episode 8 :

  1. Why is there a map to Luke?
  2. Will Luke train Rey?
  3. How did Kylo Ren become seduced by Supreme Leader Snoke?
  4. Who are the Knights of Ren?
  5. Who is Supreme Leader Snoke?
  6. How will Captain Phasma have a bigger role?
  7. Will Finn and Rey fall in love?
  8. Why was Rey orphaned on Jakku?
  9. Who are Rey’s parents?
  10. How did R2D2 wake up when he did?

Now here’s my Episode 8. Before Ben Solo went evil, Luke found a map to an ancient Sith temple which he investigated and found the secret to immortality and mastery of life. That’s how Ben Solo became evil : Snoke wants to become immortal and master life like Plageus. Snoke tells Ben of the legend of the Knights of Ren who wanted immortality but failed(“ren” means life in an alien language and "kylo means master so “Kylo Ren” means Master of Life). When Ben goes evil, he creates the new Knights of Ren with other immortality lusting bad guys to finish what Darth Vader started. Yes, Darth Vader was trying to master life and achieve immortality during the OT. Is it really that much of a stretch? He did try to stop his wife from dying in ROTS and although the Emperor may be wise to it due to seeing his master Plageus fail, Vader isn’t. It also explains why he still sticked with the Emperor after his wife died, because he still has hope for reviving his wife and reuniting with his family. It’s one hell of a retcon but really humanizes Vader even more!

Back to Luke, he rips the map into little pieces so that nobody will learn the secret to immortality and hid in on the planet of the temple in order to guard it. The Resistance and the First Order mistake the pieces for a map to just Luke and do everything Luke wants not to happen by trying to find him. That’s why Luke has such a puzzled look at the end of the movie because he’s not sure what to think of Rey. Maybe R2D2 was actually manipulated by Snoke to wake up and lead the First Order to Luke Skywalker.

Let’s get into the present. Kylo Ren is being tortured, taunted, and “trained” by Snoke. The Dark Side feeds on anger and fear, so this how Sith are trained. Here we learn about the ultimate goal of the Knights of Ren and Snoke : immortality, and we also meet the Knights of Ren themselves. Cut back to Luke and Rey. “Why are you here?” Luke demands. “Because you called me.” Rey replies. “I didn’t-” Luke is interrupted by Kylo Ren’s ship landing. “Oh, no”.

TO BE CONTINUED

Cause this is seriously getting long

My edited Part 1 of Episode 8 is quoted above.

Since the Hosnian system(goverment of the Republic) was destroyed by the Starkiller Base, there has been a power vacuum in the galaxy. Various factions have emerged that are struggling for power in the galaxy including the First Order. Poe Dameron is sent to stop all out war in the Galaxy.

And that’s all I really have.

Post
#890383
Topic
Rate TFA (NO SPOILERS)
Time
  1. Empire Strikes Back 10/10 Masterpiece
  2. The Force Awakens 9/10
    Amazing
  3. Star Wars 1977 8.5/10
    Great
  4. Return of the Jedi 7.5/10
    Good
  5. Revenge of the Sith 6/10
    Barely enjoyable
  6. The Phantom Menace 3/10
    Boring
  7. Attack of the Clones 2/10
    Cringe worthy
Post
#890217
Topic
SPOILERS Rewrite The Force Awakens
Time

Nepheronia said:

I love your dichotomic view that if the Empire isn’t shown in the movie as the dominant force by a substantial margin then it must be a bunch of weaklings who lose all the time.

You said you wanted the First Order to be replaced by a “fractional and marginalized Imperial remnant” and that they are “basically not worth ****”. It doesn’t even matter because having weak villains would be boring even if it doesn’t make sense logically. How can we fear for our heroes when there is nothing to fear? Moving on.

Here are the unanswered questions for Episode 8 :

  1. Why is there a map to Luke?
  2. Will Luke train Rey?
  3. How did Kylo Ren become seduced by Supreme Leader Snoke?
  4. Who are the Knights of Ren?
  5. Who is Supreme Leader Snoke?
  6. How will Captain Phasma have a bigger role?
  7. Will Finn and Rey fall in love?
  8. Why was Rey orphaned on Jakku?
  9. Who are Rey’s parents?
  10. How did R2D2 wake up when he did?

Now here’s my Episode 8. Before Ben Solo went evil, Luke found a map to an ancient Sith temple which he investigated and found the secret to immortality and mastery of life. That’s how Ben Solo became evil : Snoke wants to become immortal and master life like Plageus. Snoke tells Ben of the legend of the Knights of Ren who wanted immortality but failed(“ren” can mean life or immortal in an alien language). When Ben goes evil, he adopts their name and creates the new Knights of Ren with other immortality lusting bad guys to finish what Darth Vader started. Yes, Darth Vader was trying to master life and achieve immortality during the OT. Is it really that much of a stretch? He did try to stop his wife from dying in ROTS and although the Emperor may be wise to it due to seeing his master Plageus fail, Vader isn’t. It also explains why he still sticked with the Emperor after his wife died, because he still has hope for reviving his wife and reuniting with his family. It’s one hell of a retcon but really humanizes Vader even more!

Back to Luke, he rips the map into little pieces so that nobody will learn the secret to immortality and hid in on the planet of the temple in order to guard it. The Resistance and the First Order mistake the pieces for a map to just Luke and do everything Luke wants not to happen by trying to find him. That’s why Luke has such a puzzled look at the end of the movie because he’s not sure what to think of Rey. Maybe R2D2 was actually manipulated by Snoke to wake up and lead the First Order to Luke Skywalker.

OK, all that was backstory. Let’s get into the present. Snoke is training Kylo Ren harshly, and here we can meet the Knights of Ren, establish their character, and learn about their ultimate goal of immortality. They are all getting prepared to find Luke Skywalker. Cut back to Luke and Rey. “Why are you here?” Luke demands. “Because you called me.” Rey replies. “I didn’t-” Luke is interrupted by Kylo Ren’s ship landing. “Oh, no”.

TO BE CONTINUED

Cause this is seriously getting long

This post has been edited.

Post
#890074
Topic
SPOILERS Rewrite The Force Awakens
Time

Nepheronia said:

Nope, sorry, but we saw the Alliance win. We saw the Empire defeated. Showing us a strong and powerful Empire and a devestated Republic that relies on a Rebellion to fight said Empire yet again is just poor writing. Thematically it makes no sense to break the implicit promise of the OT that defeating the Empire will fix it all and return the galaxy to its status quo of 25,000 years of civilised peace.

There’s mention in supplemental materials about how the New Order is just a remnant in a little corner of the Unknown Regions and is basically not worth shit but we don’t see that in the film. And the film is what gives the impression of theuniverse it is set in. And that universe is Empire Supreme.

So? If the First Order is just a bunch if weaklings who lose all the time then there’s no tension. You wanna repeat the Trade Federation again? They’re all weak and can be disposed like butter. It’s one of the many reasons why Phantom Menace was a snooze fest. Now that would be poor writing. Yes, it does ruin the happy ending for the OT but does it for sake of a good story.

Yes, Vader and the Emperor are dead and the second Death Star was destroyed, but what about all the remaining Imperial stormtroopers and commanders spread across the galaxy? All it takes is for someone like the Supreme Leader Snoke to lead the brainwashed stormtroopers and create the First Order. The Empire had a lot of time to establish itself.

Let’s move beyond the Force Awakens. What about Episode 8? There’s still so much we don’t know. If we focus on the characters, how else could Finn and Rey mature? What’s up with Luke? They could do the theory that Luke turns evil, but it doesn’t seem the story is going in that direction.

Post
#890037
Topic
SPOILERS Rewrite The Force Awakens
Time

Nepheronia said:

I can’t really judge character arcs without knowing the whole trilogy plot so i think rewriting that aspect of TFA is basically not worth doing right now, just in my own opinion.

Personally I’d be more interested in engineering a script that wasn’t juat 75% SW77 redone. Keep the characters basically the same but engineer a new plot, new events and things like that.

As a start I’d more clearly explain the whole First Order/Republic status quo. Or remove it entirely and make it clear that the Republic is really the dominant force in the galaxy. Have the First Order just basically replaced by a fractional and marginalised Imperial Remnant or something.

I would work on transitioning Finn’s defection more gradually so it’s not so jarring as well. Same perhaps with some of Rey’s elements. Basically keep the same character beats but develop them more organically.

Oh and Phasma would be the badass stormtrooper with the electrobaton.

I think explaining the First Order/Republic status quo is a little prequelish since it’s not really important to the story of the characters. The First Order should be powerful not weak.

I agree with everything else though, but there does come a point where people try so hard at being different that they forget to make a good story. Really the only change to differenciate itself from A New Hope is to remove the Starkiller Base, but then the stakes aren’t as high, so we really need to setup The First Order as incredibly strong. In that first scene, have the village completely decimated by the First Order. Setup the non-Death-Star base as impossible to infiltrate. You don’t need a superweapon to be intimidating. Look at the Empire Strikes Back! They destroy the Rebels and they lost their ultimate weapon.

Post
#889979
Topic
SPOILERS Rewrite The Force Awakens
Time

SPOILER ALERT

Leave now if you have not seen The Force Awakens.

OK.

Are you gone?

Good.

All things considered, The Force Awakens did a good job with the story. Kylo Ren’s backstory, Han Solo’s involvement, Finn’s story, and Luke’s dissapearance should stay. It can even start the same way, with Poe Dameron getting captured by the First Order before being helped out by Finn.

Where I think the movie went a little iffy is Rey. She should definetly stay female, but her story doen’t seem that original unless Episode 8 proves me otherwise because we still don’t know her full story. We should have known more about her character in this movie. Maybe she was a victim of the Jedi Academy incident with Kylo Ren. She was orphaned on Jakku, and has mostly forgotten about it due to being so young but still knows what she was taught about The Force subconciously. That would make Kylo Ren directly responsible for all her problems. Also, a third Death Star is a little unnecessary when your third act has that much emotion and epicness regardless, but I’m not sure how the movie would fare without it. The First Order wouldn’t suffer any major defeat besides losing the map to Luke Skywalker. Maybe just a regular heavily protected base with Tie Fighters which Poe Dameron and his team damage. I also think R2D2 suddenly awakening was a little too convenient. Maybe another piece of the map is in the hands of the First Order, which the heroes retrieve in the third act, so the map can be complete at the end without having R2D2 in low power mode.

Post
#889805
Topic
Rate TFA (NO SPOILERS)
Time

Jay said:

Borrowing elements from a wide variety of sources and blending them to create something no one has seen before is very different from creating a near carbon copy of an earlier film in the very same franchise.

As far as my ratings go, I pretty much agree with ZkinandBonez. I really enjoy Star Wars, but even ESB is an 8 or 8.5 in a world full of amazing films. That’s why I give TFA a 5 or 6 tops.

MINOR SPOILER$ even though this is a no spoiler thread.

The Force Awakens is not a near carbon copy of Star Wars. [SPOILERS REMOVED] None of that matters because the stories and the way it’s done are so much more different. Star Wars is much more of a copy than The Force Awakens is. Akira Kurosawa’s Hidden Fortress, Flash Gordon, Hero of a Thousand Faces. It may sound bad, but ORIGINALITY DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL.

Please don’t post spoilers in this thread. - Jay

This post has been edited.

Post
#889681
Topic
Rate TFA (NO SPOILERS)
Time

ZkinandBonez said:

Bosk said:

ZkinandBonez said:

TV’s Frink said:

ZkinandBonez said:

People here really do have drastically different personal rating systems.
I personally would give TFA a 6/10, but whereas that’s a bad rating for someone here, for me that’s a pretty decent rating. Citizen Kane is a 10/10 for me, and something like the Avengers; dumb, but not necessarily stupid and without a plot, and definitely entertaining and funny, is a 5/5.

What.

What?
Are you objecting to my rating of the SW movies, or my other examples?

I think your jump from ratings out of ten to ratings out of 5 threw him? But comparing Citizen Kane to TFA is like comparing a Picasso to a child’s drawing.

Right, yeah I might have been a bit leaniant towards what makes a 5/5 film. My point was that a 5 is average. Nothing special, but not necessarily bad. Casual filmmaking simply trying entertain. TFA had more of a point to it, but is too unoriginal and action oriented to go above a 7. Therefore I gave it a 6. The PT has many cinematic flaws so I’m pushing them down to either 4 or 3.

EDIT: I just realised I had written 5/5 instead of 5/10. I’ve fixed it now.

I disagree. Technically, the original Star Wars is a copy of literally 3/4 of all movies, stories, books, etc. because it was based on Joseph Campbell’s Hero of a Thousand Faces, which recounts the common story behind every story, so originality shouldn’t really be a factor when rating a movie. People thought The Matrix was original, but it was actually based on an anime and also follows Joseph Campbell’s structure.

So movies are not supposed to entertain? Alfred Hitchcock’s movies aren’t exactly as profound as any of Kubrick or Orson Welles’s movies, but they are considered masterpieces in suspense and story. It’s great when a movie goes beyond that and teaches us things, but just because it isn’t about the purpose of life or something, doesn’t mean it’s bad. Besides that, the action and story in The Force Awakens is AMAZING. The entire sequence of Han Solo meeting Kylo Ren to Finn and Rey’s battle with Kylo Ren had me at the edge of my seat.

Here’s where I’m gonna start arguing that TFA is actually better than the original Star Wars. For one thing, TFA has much better acting overall and with much stronger themes that are closer to the Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi than the original Star Wars. Yes, the original Star Wars effects were beyond groundbreaking, but they are just special effects. Even Lucas himself said that special effects don’t matter if you don’t have a good story(look at half the blockbusters today). It’s also funnier and tells its story more through just visuals. You know everything about Finn through a few short, simple scenes at the beginning of the movie. Same with Rey.The Empire Strikes Back is still better, but take your nostalgia goggles off guys! It’s nowhere near as bad as any of the prequels and is the best Star Wars movie since the Empire Strikes Back.

Post
#889430
Topic
Rate TFA (NO SPOILERS)
Time

Star Wars Movies Ranked :

  1. The Empire Strikes Back
  2. The Force Awakens
  3. Star Wars 1977
  4. Return of the Jedi
  5. Revenge of the Sith
  6. The other prequels including the CG Clone Wars movie
  7. The Holiday Special shivers
Post
#888694
Topic
Star Wars Extended Editions?
Time

One of the reasons the prequels were so terrible was because Lucas had full control over everything! Nobody to say “Uh George, I think we should cut that scene out.”. There were people like that during the making of A New Hope, which is why it came out as great as it did. So what if we insert all the deleted scenes back into the movie regardless of whether or not it makes sense. From the Special Editions, the DVDs, everything. We could have the Despecialized Edition as the main source with as many extra scenes as possible, to show how Star Wars could have been just as bad as the prequels. Has anyone done this because I’ve wanted to see it for a long time.

Post
#888632
Topic
Are the prequels neede for The Force Awakens?
Time

Wow, I got way more posts than I expected. A simple “no” would have been OK. I was going to watch the Blu Rays in Machete Order in case some change in the special editions was important for The Force Awakens, but I’m gonna go Despecialized original trilogy! Boom, baby! Also, ZERO SPOILERS for The Force Awakens. Zero.

Post
#883952
Topic
The Lunchman Order! New way to watch Star Wars!
Time

TV’s Frink said:

StarChewyWar said:

I’m sure by now EVERYONE(even Patton Oswalt) has heard of the great Machete Order, but that order has one humongous problem : Why do you need to watch Attack of the Clones AGAIN? Unless you’re an OT die hard, you probably think Revenge of the Sith isn’t that bad a movie. So I have a solution for the people who have already seen all the Star Wars movies and sorta like ROTS :

  1. Star Wars(1977)
  2. The Empire Strikes Back
  3. Revenge of the Sith
  4. Return of the Jedi

Why do you need to watch Revenge of the Sith AGAIN? Just save another 2+ hours and stick to the OT.

This is for people who don’t mind ROTS. Even in the Machete Order article, it states that if you don’t like the prequels, DON’T WATCH THEM.

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