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Shopping Maul

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12-Oct-2013
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20-Jan-2018
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Post
#1160037
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

chyron8472 said:

Shopping Maul said:

chyron8472 said:

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

Maybe, as a Jedi, Ben Kenobi feels it is appropriate to let Luke face his own battles rather than directly interfering. To do so would disrupt Luke’s journey toward becoming a Jedi because it could turn Luke into a noob by relying on Ben to solve Luke’s problems.

That is, Ben could interfere, but chooses not to because it is inappropriate in order for Luke to forge his own path correctly. When Ben says “I can not interfere”, he’s referring to a moral code rather than a physical limitation.

I think there’s a nice simplicity to the idea of force-ghosts as personal guides only. Giving them discretionary physicality muddies the waters somewhat (as evidenced by this thread).

But Ben Kenobi says to Vader “If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.” Pigeonholing him then into someone only capable of talking would, I think, cheapen his potential power as a sentient non-corporeal being of the Force itself. Sure, he doesn’t do more than guide in the OT, but that doesn’t mean he literally can’t. The OT just leaves any further possible force-ghost powers a mystery because neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda use them.

My interpretation (back in the day) of Obi’s line was that he knew he’d be around in ghostly form to guide the new hope (you know who) to victory against the bad guys. I saw it as a subtle thing - the kind of power that would escape the notice of the power-hungry Sith. Kind of a ‘the power of knowledge’ type thing rather than "I’ll be God-like!!"
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you. Obviously there is a lot of room for interpretation with these things, but I much prefer a ‘ghosts as guides’ model. There was a beautiful spiritual ambiguity to Force ghosts in the OT (and the Force itself for that matter) that I think has been demystified by subsequent films.

Post
#1160035
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Forgot that little detail. (Yet I remember Creepy Tiny Purple Concept Art Yoda that was in early press runs.) Given the comics were done without the advantage of having seen the films that may have been an abandoned script idea.
I also seem to recall Vader hearing Luke’s call to Ben for help before he requests his shuttle.

Yes, that’s right! Wow, I had that original version (with purple Yoda). Wish I hadn’t given it up…

I have scans of those specific pages if you’re feeling nostalgic.

Really? Wow, that’d be awesome, but I can’t promise I won’t cry tears of nostalgic joy!

Post
#1159707
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

chyron8472 said:

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

Maybe, as a Jedi, Ben Kenobi feels it is appropriate to let Luke face his own battles rather than directly interfering. To do so would disrupt Luke’s journey toward becoming a Jedi because it could turn Luke into a noob by relying on Ben to solve Luke’s problems.

That is, Ben could interfere, but chooses not to because it is inappropriate in order for Luke to forge his own path correctly. When Ben says “I can not interfere”, he’s referring to a moral code rather than a physical limitation.

Yes, that’s fair enough, and I’m guessing that was Lucas’ original intention (given that ghost-Obi and ghost-Yoda helped battle Palpatine in an early draft of ROTJ). It just gets a bit ethically tricky for me. When is ghost-intervention appropriate? Should Luke die for a religious education but burning trees is okay? I think there’s a nice simplicity to the idea of force-ghosts as personal guides only. Giving them discretionary physicality muddies the waters somewhat (as evidenced by this thread).

Post
#1159588
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

SilverWook said:

Forgot that little detail. (Yet I remember Creepy Tiny Purple Concept Art Yoda that was in early press runs.) Given the comics were done without the advantage of having seen the films that may have been an abandoned script idea.
I also seem to recall Vader hearing Luke’s call to Ben for help before he requests his shuttle.

Yes, that’s right! Wow, I had that original version (with purple Yoda). Wish I hadn’t given it up…

Post
#1159583
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

The problem with Yoda’s lightning powers is that it opens a can of worms where none needed to be. If RJ just went with what the OT had more or less established, we wouldn’t have to start inventing ways to make it all fit. Yoda could’ve just dispensed great advice - which is what FGs do - and Luke could’ve burned the tree down. It’s not a huge deal, but it does make one start to wonder why these ghostly guys didn’t intervene earlier. Why is it all hands on deck for a tree-burning but no help during the ‘Palpatine blasts Luke’ moment in ROTJ (for example)?

😛

Nobody is inventing anything, all the visual information is in the darn movie! Stormy weather plus island dripping in Force energy means Yoda could fry Porgs if he wanted to.

Sorry, I’m not sure which ‘darn movie’ you’re referring to. Is your ROTJ photo evidence of physical interaction? I’d say no. While the notion of the ghosts appearing to sit on logs and /or Ewok fences suggests an appearance of interaction in a vague sense (as opposed to just floating like Casper) it by no means suggests that old Anakin might reach over to Luke and adjust his tie. The inference in the OT is one of non-physical intervention - sagely advice, a few choruses of ‘trust your feelings’ and so forth. Once we go down the dark path of suggesting ghosts with physical attributes, we have to wonder why they don’t just show up willy nilly and throw random crockery at Snoke, or cover Kylo’s eyes peekaboo-style while he’s duelling Rey. I just think it would have been better to preserve the ghosts as they were and expand the lore in other ways.

The most recent movie.
Worth considering we’ve never seen a Force ghost appear in an artificial place like the Death Star or Cloud City, only in a natural setting. Ben probably can’t appear and interfere with the Bespin duel if he wanted to.

Manipulating the energies in an approaching storm and throwing crockery are two wholly different things.

Why Ben didn’t just appear in the Wampa cave and yell Boo! we may never know. 😛

I quite like the ‘natural’ settings’ thesis, but I think I’d still rather they merely kept force ghosts in a strictly advisory role.
Actually, you’ll probably remember that in the Marvel TESB adaptation Obi Wan’s voice appeared in the Wampa cave and said “Luke, you must think the sabre into your hand…”. Non-canon now of course, but still…

Post
#1159577
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Frank your Majesty said:

I didn’t go “eh?” when I saw TLJ.

Fair enough. I mean we all have our own subjective sense of credulity when it comes to the SW universe. Things like the Jedi afterlife and Force ghosts were all written on the run anyway, so it’s really down to the viewer which moments become ‘eh?’ moments. Even as far back as Obi sitting himself down on the log in ROTJ I was going “eh?” - so I guess that illustrates my own conservatism in this area.

Post
#1159571
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Frank your Majesty said:

The lightning could have hit the tree even without Yoda doing anything, just by coincidence. Yoda slightly influencing the weather do do something that could have happened naturally seems very subtle and not too far fetched to me. Now, how do you imagine ghost Obi-Wan fighting against Vader or the Emperor? What could he possible do to defeat them?

Also, so far we only see force ghosts in calm and peaceful moments, not when people are busy fighting each other and not in the presence of a strong dark side user. Maybe Obi-Wan really wasn’t able to help Luke simply because Vader’s presence prevented him.

And finally, the main role of force ghosts is to guide others, not to solve problems for them. Yoda sets the tree on fire as a lesson for Luke, to set him straight, not because Yoda hates the Jedi books (they weren’t even in there and I think Yoda knew that). Similarly, what lesson would Obi-Wan teach Luke by killing Vader for him? Facing Vader is an important station on Luke’s spiritual journey and he needs to do it alone, otherwise it would be ruined. Isn’t that similar to LOTR, where Gandalf in theory is more powerful than Sauron and could easily kill him, but he rather helps the humans to overcome their struggles themselves?

I just think the ethics become a little dodgy when a ghost that has the capacity to intervene might consider letting a student die for the sake of a religious lesson. I think it makes more sense to assume that Obi Wan is stating that he can’t help, rather than won’t help. All he can do is give the best advice he can, but he can’t pitch in.
I mean everything you’re saying is plausible. I just wish we didn’t have to have these moments in SW movies where we kind of go “eh?” and then desperately write our own canon to get around these things (Leia as sister, Padme dying during childbirth, R2 having flying abilities etc etc). That entire Yoda/Luke scene could have achieved its aims without Yoda becoming Thor.

Post
#1159569
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

The problem with Yoda’s lightning powers is that it opens a can of worms where none needed to be. If RJ just went with what the OT had more or less established, we wouldn’t have to start inventing ways to make it all fit. Yoda could’ve just dispensed great advice - which is what FGs do - and Luke could’ve burned the tree down. It’s not a huge deal, but it does make one start to wonder why these ghostly guys didn’t intervene earlier. Why is it all hands on deck for a tree-burning but no help during the ‘Palpatine blasts Luke’ moment in ROTJ (for example)?

😛

Nobody is inventing anything, all the visual information is in the darn movie! Stormy weather plus island dripping in Force energy means Yoda could fry Porgs if he wanted to.

Sorry, I’m not sure which ‘darn movie’ you’re referring to. Is your ROTJ photo evidence of physical interaction? I’d say no. While the notion of the ghosts appearing to sit on logs and /or Ewok fences suggests an appearance of interaction in a vague sense (as opposed to just floating like Casper) it by no means suggests that old Anakin might reach over to Luke and adjust his tie. The inference in the OT is one of non-physical intervention - sagely advice, a few choruses of ‘trust your feelings’ and so forth. Once we go down the dark path of suggesting ghosts with physical attributes, we have to wonder why they don’t just show up willy nilly and throw random crockery at Snoke, or cover Kylo’s eyes peekaboo-style while he’s duelling Rey. I just think it would have been better to preserve the ghosts as they were and expand the lore in other ways.

Post
#1159545
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

The problem with Yoda’s lightning powers is that it opens a can of worms where none needed to be. If RJ just went with what the OT had more or less established, we wouldn’t have to start inventing ways to make it all fit. Yoda could’ve just dispensed great advice - which is what FGs do - and Luke could’ve burned the tree down. It’s not a huge deal, but it does make one start to wonder why these ghostly guys didn’t intervene earlier. Why is it all hands on deck for a tree-burning but no help during the ‘Palpatine blasts Luke’ moment in ROTJ (for example)?

Post
#1159066
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Warbler said:

ok, I give up. think whatever you want. I can’t continue to argue against so many. I’m done.

For what it’s worth mate, I agree with you. Force ghosts in the OT were basically guides. Now they can interact with the physical world.
It makes perfect sense for the viewer to wonder why the hell they didn’t exploit this ability 3 movies ago.

Post
#1159055
Topic
Which franchise is bigger and more iconic Star Wars or Harry Potter
Time

Mike O said:

Shopping Maul said:

Mike O said:

chyron8472 said:

Mike O said:

What is the “Kurtz version?

Gary Kurtz, co-producer of Star Wars and TESB, wanted ROTJ to end on a bittersweet, poignant tone. Were Lucas not to have intervened and changed the story to be more fun and have a happy ending, among other things Han Solo would have died a sacrificial death for his friends (and completed his character arc from a selfish scoundrel to a loyal hero), there would have been no second Death Star, and also no Ewok Celebration (or “teddy bear picnic” as Harrison Ford put it).

No kidding? I’m fascinated. Did Lucas kick Kurtz off the project because of creative differences or something? I read just recently that McQuarrie had some clashes with him and was running out of ideas by ROTJ. Did they originally want to bring Kershner back to direct?

Kurtz has done a few interviews (they’re all over the internet) talking about his dislike for the direction George was taking with ROTJ. There was also supposedly a question of budget - Kurtz allowed Kershner some extra time on TESB which led to the shoot going over budget. Kurtz ended up directing some scenes himself to save time. I’m not sure how significant the budgetary factor was in Lucas’ and Kurtz’ parting of ways.

Damn, fascinating. I didn’t know any of this! So in some parallel universe, there’s a version of ROTJ that actually pays off everything in ESB, I like the weak version we got? I’d be willing to bet it was a combination of going over budget with Lucas money and Lucas probably wanting more creative control over things after ESB. I really had no idea about any of this, it’s really interesting to me. I’m a disgrace to these forums, I know 😉.

Well, I confess to being on the Kurtz side of the debate, only because ROTJ was a disappointment to me and I’d have much preferred a continuation of the TESB vibe. Given that Lucas has consistently claimed he was 30% happy with ANH, and 100% happy with TPM, it’s clear that he and I have differing opinions on what constitutes a great SW movie!

Post
#1158525
Topic
Which franchise is bigger and more iconic Star Wars or Harry Potter
Time

Mike O said:

chyron8472 said:

Mike O said:

What is the “Kurtz version?

Gary Kurtz, co-producer of Star Wars and TESB, wanted ROTJ to end on a bittersweet, poignant tone. Were Lucas not to have intervened and changed the story to be more fun and have a happy ending, among other things Han Solo would have died a sacrificial death for his friends (and completed his character arc from a selfish scoundrel to a loyal hero), there would have been no second Death Star, and also no Ewok Celebration (or “teddy bear picnic” as Harrison Ford put it).

No kidding? I’m fascinated. Did Lucas kick Kurtz off the project because of creative differences or something? I read just recently that McQuarrie had some clashes with him and was running out of ideas by ROTJ. Did they originally want to bring Kershner back to direct?

Kurtz has done a few interviews (they’re all over the internet) talking about his dislike for the direction George was taking with ROTJ. There was also supposedly a question of budget - Kurtz allowed Kershner some extra time on TESB which led to the shoot going over budget. Kurtz ended up directing some scenes himself to save time. I’m not sure how significant the budgetary factor was in Lucas’ and Kurtz’ parting of ways.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1157895
Topic
Which franchise is bigger and more iconic Star Wars or Harry Potter
Time

Collipso said:

Shopping Maul said:

Star Wars. But Harry Potter does share some interesting similarities. And to be brutally honest I wish Lucas had followed Rowling’s example and trusted the audience to grow with the series. I’m amazed at the depth, nuance, and darkness in the Deathly Hallows - especially when compared to the wide-eyed innocence of Philosopher’s Stone. JK clearly trusted her audience to mature and take it all on board as things got progressively heavier. I wish George had taken the same route with ROTJ.

Well, RotJ is visually and graphically darker than Empire. If not for the slapstick and if better executed the whole concept of Luke getting closer and closer to turning to the dark side, it could’ve been a pretty dark movie.

Yes, it could have been. And of course there’s the alleged ‘Kurtz version’ of ROTJ which lines up with Deathly Hallows pretty well (Han dying in action, Leia left to rule a galaxy in tatters, Luke walking off into the sunset all disillusioned etc etc). I understand that Lucas always intended SW to be good wholesome fun, but I think he overcompensated somewhat with ROTJ.

Post
#1157816
Topic
Which franchise is bigger and more iconic Star Wars or Harry Potter
Time

Star Wars. But Harry Potter does share some interesting similarities. And to be brutally honest I wish Lucas had followed Rowling’s example and trusted the audience to grow with the series. I’m amazed at the depth, nuance, and darkness in the Deathly Hallows - especially when compared to the wide-eyed innocence of Philosopher’s Stone. JK clearly trusted her audience to mature and take it all on board as things got progressively heavier. I wish George had taken the same route with ROTJ.

Post
#1154497
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

Mrebo said:

ExNihilo said:

I can’t believe I read the whole thing.
Now I have indigestion.

And I have so much indigestion that I hit submit before I put in my first comment on this board in years.

And I had to edit it.

And I’m not sure how I feel about the film. Even after 3 viewings. Even after trying to digest the various points of view in this thread and elsewhere.

Admiral Motti had a similar issue.

I’ve seen it twice and I share your confusion. I’m pretty down on the movie and yet I enjoyed it - even more the second time. Contrary to Wook’s good advice do I need to pay to see it a third time? Maybe. There’s a fundamental level of discomfort that is more substantial than mere nostalgia.

My base level of discomfort comes from the fact, that the ST doesn’t attempt to connect to the rest of the saga. It simply resets the galaxy to a pre-ROTJ state, without even attempting provide any overarching story thread. It just feels tagged on.

It resets the characters to that pre-ROTJ state too. I have to say I didn’t mind it in the case of Han and Leia, because I felt they were infinitely more interesting as post-divorce ‘scoundrel’ and ‘rebel leader’ respectively than they ever would have been as comfy Coruscant retirees. But resetting Luke to a pre-ROTJ state sits uneasily with me.

Post
#1154422
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

chyron8472 said:

Shopping Maul said:

I can picture is a cabal of nerds sitting around the writers’ table saying […] “maybe Rey could have heat-vision this time”.

I still don’t get it. What about this movie makes it so like a Marvel superhero film? I keep seeing this, but what the heck are people talking about?

I wasn’t actually making the Marvel comparison in this instance. It was merely an exaggerated dig at the idea of randomly ascribing powers to Rey on the basis of ‘coolness’ rather than implied training.

Post
#1154401
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Back in ‘83, one of the things that disappointed me about ROTJ was the sudden realisation that Lucas’ was really just making this all up as he went along. There was no ‘saga’. He hadn’t even known who the ‘other hope’ was when Yoda spoke that line in TESB. Of course this made sense in the context of Star Wars’ creation, but “Leia, Leia’s my sister” and “what I told you was true, from a certain point of view” still make me cringe to this day.

So when the prequels came along you’d think this would be an opportunity to tie it all together logically - give it some weight. Instead we got a GL who didn’t give a damn about his own continuity. Anakin was the wrong age (ditto Owen and Beru), Padme died without giving Leia those famous memories, and the saga was now peppered with dumb crap like Midichlorians, the Sith rule of two, Obi/Yoda’s absurd 20-year waiting plan, and a space-Jesus Vader whose head would be unceremoniously glued onto Sebastian Shaw’s body in the world’s worst retcon.

But we wore it right? We went full ‘cognitive dissonance mode’ and convinced ourselves that Midichlorians were okay and somehow made the Force all the richer, that Leia’s Force-sensitivity granted her the memories Luke couldn’t have, that there was a logic to hiding Luke with his uncle and letting him keep his old surname, that there were complex reasons Vader seemed to conveniently forget the ‘rule of two’ that was about to cost him his job, that Tatooine weather gives the illusion of rapid ageing etc etc. We’re fans goddammit!

I liked TFA, despite knowing full well I was being seduced by carefully orchestrated nostalgia. But I liked it largely because I knew (assumed) that all the crazy coincidences and unexplained story threads were set to culminate in a rich, detailed, fully-realised Star Wars epic. Then I read somewhere that RJ apparently had free reign to do whatever he liked with all of the plot threads.

Well surely not ‘all’ plot threads (I thought to myself) because JJ and Kasdan would have mapped it all out right?

Nope.

I don’t hate TLJ (I’m still not sure how I feel about it overall) and I do like a lot of the choices RJ made. But I don’t give a hoot what’s going to happen in IX because it’s clear the writers don’t either. Their guess is as good as mine, so it’s hard to feel invested. All I can picture is a cabal of nerds sitting around the writers’ table saying “we need an even bigger cantina in this one…” and “maybe Rey could have heat-vision this time”.

George wrote the OT on the fly and it shows. He wrote the PT - clearly without rewatching the OT - on the fly and it shows. This series is looking similarly clunky to me.

Still on the fence…

Post
#1152399
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

NFBisms said:

I don’t even think you have to assume Luke changed all that much within the 30+ years, tbh.

The Luke I know coming out of ROTJ would absolutely hold himself accountable for failing himself and his ideals in the way he did that night. He wouldn’t just brush off messing up like that with Ben and continue pretending to be so self-righteous.

I can understand his reaction to keep himself away from the galaxy because of his arc in 4-6 teaching him that action doesn’t always mean heroism. In his mind, his presence and the spread of the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo, endangered the galaxy and only doomed it to more of the same darkness. A cycle that would only continue repeating itself.

You see this kind of thinking with “I shouldn’t have come I’m jeopardizing the mission” when he senses Vader is on Endor with them. And you see an extension of it when he assures Leia that she is the next hope if he doesn’t make it back from the Death Star II. If he feels he can only make something worse, he feels it best to stay away, and he knows that even when he’s gone, there is still light in the galaxy - heroes that will fight for good.

“To say that because the Jedi die the light dies, is vanity.”

I’m not saying he was right to stay away. The whole idea is that he’s wrong, and that he can still be a hero. But it fits with the character for me. I don’t think he changed drastically in those 30 years.

A huge thing just put him in a drastically different place.

I’m still on the fence with TLJ and I’m probably due another viewing, however…

I think my problem with nu-Luke is this - TFA presented a Luke in exile. That’s fine and doesn’t negate the OT in any way. It even hearkens back to the alleged ‘Kurtz version’ of ROTJ, which I really like the sound of. Luke in exile would be (and I think this was JJ’s intention) looking for knowledge, a new way to counter the new threat.

However TLJ presents a Luke who has just plain quit. Given up. This just doesn’t seem to be his style. It seems to detract from the OT rather than just adding to it.

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#1151143
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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Warbler said:

Collipso said:

It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.

I wonder if part of it could be that for years, I could only watch it on VHS in pan and scan. Letterboxing just wasn’t done in 1983. The guards putting their hands on their necks might have been cut out of the frame. I only saw the widescreen version once in 1983 and then pan and scan for years until the SE came out in the theaters.

I know this is ridiculous (and off-topic) but I recently bought the early 90s VHS trilogy on ebay. As lame as the format is, there’s something so beautifully nostalgic about watching them in this format again after so many years. I tried to digitise them but can’t get past the copy-protection…

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#1150965
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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

It’s so hard to put a finger on when Star Wars appears ridiculous or breaks its own supposed rules. Obviously it’s in the eye of the beholder.

I quite liked Rey’s power-levels in TFA because they provided something of a contrast to the Luke experience. Luke was basically a nice suburban kid who was introduced to his Jedi heritage (and potential) in a very linear way. Given that the saga overall has established that certain folks have a knack for this stuff (not thrilled with Midichlorians but anyway…) I love the idea of a potential Jedi honing their abilities completely under the duress of the school of hard knocks. Rey learns to fight and to sense danger because it’s basically do or die. She learns skills like languages and mechanics because she needs every advantage. It’s an interesting idea.

I think my limit in TLJ was the rocks scene. Maybe I need another viewing (I don’t recall any build-up or implied effort, but I could be completely wrong here!) but this just seemed to say “yep, Rey can do anything folks”. It’s hard NOT to consider the precedent set by the previous films on this one. Fighting skills are one thing - it’s easy to imagine Luke gaining such skills had he gone through Rey-like experiences in life. But she never needed to levitate stuff on Jakku. Yoda’s lifting Luke’s X-wing in the swamp was clearly a demonstration of mastery - a kind of faraway point for Luke to aspire to in some distant future if he really knuckled down and applied some serious discipline. Rey defies all this and simply…does it. In the scene she looks as surprised as I was!

The new movies seem to be confused about how they want to depict the Force. They’re edging away from the ‘chosen one’ crap of the Midichlorian-era and returning to the ‘energy field’ we all know and love, yet they also seem to be saying that Force powers are springing up everywhere for no other reason than the Force itself likes to balance itself vicariously through random folks.

Like I said, I’m due another viewing of TLJ, but I’m not sure how I feel about all of this. Fun to discuss though!

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#1150576
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

SilverWook said:

adywan said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

dahmage said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

DrDre said:
A single 30 second scene, which has Luke telling us about a bad vision is not a proper set up. Show not tell still remains the best technique.

This is really true for me. These new films are all tell, tell, tell. Oh look at this flashy thing. I think the prequels were criticized for having so much clutter on the screen visually. These Disney films deserve to be criticized for having too much clutter in the narrative. Pointless characters, pointless subplots. Just enough time to tell you a thing or two and then back to the gimmicks. /mad

So, i know that i am combining complaints from different people. but this is what i am hearing, and it is hard to separate the voices sometimes.

  • the movie should have told us that
  • no, it shouldn’t tell, it should show
  • well, i didn’t see that, they should have told me

In movies you tell by showing.

Then please point me to where we see, in ESB, Luke’s vision of his friends being tortured? I’m pretty sure that whole scene is just done through narration. We don’t see anything at that point. And don’t say that we see things later, i’m talking about that point in time. I guess then we also needed to see what happened on Ord Mantell to be able to understand what was so bad that happened with the bounty hunter for Han to suddenly want to leave. Has the viewing audience become so dumbed down that they have to see everything on screen?

We did get the Ord Mantell incident in the old Marvel comic. 😉

Not to mention skinny Jabba and the incident with the stone-mites!

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#1150420
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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Gaffer Tape said:

Wow. I never would have guessed we’d be debating whether or not Luke choked the guards. It always seemed completely obvious to me that he was choking them. Funny how that works.

As for the comparison of Luke versus Ben and Yoda… honestly, the way we ultimately see it presented in the prequels makes it very difficult to swallow what they did, and I find it very difficult to defend it outside of, “We need to tie up loose ends and get everyone to where they are in the first movie.” Honestly, the concept would have worked much better with the earlier interpretations of the Sith as a large organization of anti-Jedi. Then, with Obi-Wan and Yoda being the only two against a huge force of Sith, it makes sense for them to flee for their lives. But with the whole rule of two, it makes no sense. I mean, from Ben’s point of view, he just killed one of the two, leaving only the Emperor, and yet right then is the moment he decides he has to get away? I mean, in the original trilogy, Obi-Wan has to use obfuscation just to get past the stormtroopers on the Death Star. But in the prequel context, the Emperor’s clone troopers, the only other means of enforcement he has besides Vader, are cut down like butter by Obi-Wan and Yoda. They’re no threat at all. So rather than team up against the Emperor or leading a rebellion… they just go into hiding, leaving everyone to suffer at the hands of Imperial tyranny.

Honestly, Luke’s motivations seem extremely plausible by comparison.

I agree. It’s also worth noting that at the time of ANH there was no ‘20 year plan’ to wait for the ‘Jedi twins’. There was no Yoda, no ‘sister’, no ‘rule of two’, and Vader was just a nasty guy who had killed Luke’s father. Luke wasn’t in hiding, and Obi Wan was simply a retired war veteran. So I don’t think it’s a worthy comparison given how ‘on the fly’ the whole thing was mapped out.

Personally I think the whole 20 year plan presented in ROTS was stupid. Vader should have been aware he had a son (with the second child born without his knowledge and taken by Bail Organa - maybe Mrs Organa’s own child died around the same time giving cover/validity to the ruse) and Owen Lars should’ve been the one to stubbornly insist Luke be raised as a Skywalker on Tatooine. Obi Wan would then retire nearby on the off chance that Vader may come to claim his son one day, and Yoda would wash his hands of the whole thing and head to Dagobah to live out his final days. You could have a scene where Yoda insists that Leia be trained as a potential Jedi and is at odds with Bail and Anakin’s wife who want her raised as a princess - thus giving credence to Yoda’s sudden ‘there is another’ brainwave in TESB which Kenobi doesn’t seem to be so privy to.

Sorry about the rambling reply…

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#1148743
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Calculon said:

Shopping Maul said:
I don’t know how plausible Leia’s space walk is. For all I know her survival in that moment (Force aside) is entirely scientific. But it looks ridiculous. It takes me out of the film because I start questioning it - “hang on, does that even make sense?”. Yes, it’s a universe where muppets lift X-wing fighters with a gesture, but somehow this moment is a mood-killer.

It was a little weird, and the way they did the visuals made it look a little silly. Ultimately I just went with it, mostly for the reasons you mentioned. I mean, if you can pull an object to yourself, why not pull yourself toward an object? If we’re putting future stories in a creative box labeled “if it didn’t happen in the original three or six, it can’t happen”, there wouldn’t be anywhere to go. That’s generally where I stand with most of the more controversial things being discussed around here.

The plausibility of the space walk in general? Force aside, yes, it’s generally accepted that you can survive in vacuum for a short time. Maybe a minute. Because of the near-zero pressure, your tissues near the skin would get puffy, and all of the moisture on the exposed surfaces of your body would boil away (saliva, etc). Only ‘mistake’ I noticed was that they seemed to make her look ‘iced over’, which is a common thing to do to someone exposed to vacuum in TV and movies. But that wouldn’t happen very quickly. Your body temperature is well above freezing, and in vacuum there’s no convection or conduction to move heat - you only cool off via direct radiation - so you would more likely overheat than get cold. Of course you’d lose consciousness after a few seconds at best, so you’d probably never notice…

In short - surviving the spacewalk itself is fine. They also did it correctly in that she would need immediate hospitalization for decompression injuries. But in a universe that has bacta, no problem, right?

Cool response - thanks! It’s fascinating to me just how Star Wars credulity works, and how varied and nuanced it can be. And yes, Bacta heals all wounds as they say…

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