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Shopping Maul

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12-Oct-2013
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16-Feb-2018
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Post
#1171759
Topic
Things that you would like to see in Star Wars that have not happened
Time

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

ChainsawAsh said:

To be fair, that wasn’t a PT thing, that was an ROTJ thing. Look what Anakin’s spirit is wearing on Endor.

Back in '83 I assumed Anakin was appearing in Tatooine garb as a kind of symbolic ‘return to innocence’ type thing. In the original novels Anakin had been a farmer like Owen, so it made sense that he would appear in his old duds at the Ewok party. The idea that these robes were official Jedi threads is/was absurd.

When you see all three of those Jedi, and they’re all wearing basically the same thing, the implication there is clear.

Also, “original novels”?

Sorry - novelizations (or novelisations). In the SW novelization Obi Wan tells Luke that Owen had wanted Anakin (not named at this point) to stay on Tatooine and concentrate on his farming. The film itself implied that Obi Wan had recruited Luke’s father for an ‘idealistic crusade’ despite Owen thinking he should have “stayed here and not gotten involved”. So this suggested (to me) that Anakin had been a farmer. Since Anakin was in Tatooine garb at the end of ROTJ, and Lucas himself made it plain that Luke had been in Jedi-garb in ROTJ (which wasn’t tan desert-robes), I naturally assumed that ghost-Anakin was in his old desert apparel.

The idea that Obi Wan was in fact sporting official Jedi-wear (whilst in hiding mind you!) that just so happened to be identical to Tatooine desert-wear is ridiculous.

Post
#1171737
Topic
Things that you would like to see in Star Wars that have not happened
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

To be fair, that wasn’t a PT thing, that was an ROTJ thing. Look what Anakin’s spirit is wearing on Endor.

Back in '83 I assumed Anakin was appearing in Tatooine garb as a kind of symbolic ‘return to innocence’ type thing. In the original novels Anakin had been a farmer like Owen, so it made sense that he would appear in his old duds at the Ewok party. The idea that these robes were official Jedi threads is/was absurd.

Post
#1165588
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Frank your Majesty said:

Do you mean Aargau or Aargau?

JEDIT: Lazy whoever, was lazy. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zug_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_of_Zug
At least Laazrau, Zauhu, Urazuun, and Faargau are not in Switzerland.

Either would do I suppose! But I was of course referring to the banking planet as depicted in Marvel’s Star Wars run. I never even knew that Aargau had transcended the 80s, made it into ‘canon’, and gained some gas-giant brothers!

Post
#1165567
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

KILLOFFPOE said:

yotsuya said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

Are you sure someone doesn’t have a voodoo doll of you? 😉

That was no skidding turn, that was real spacecraft physics. Babylon 5 had spacecraft turn on an axis to fire like that all the time.

Star Wars doesn’t have “real spacecraft physics”. Star Wars has always been “WWII in Space”. I’ve never seen a P-51 Mustang make a turn like that!

Is there some limit to how big a spaceship can be I’m not aware of? Snoke’s ship didn’t seem that much larger than Vader’s Star Destroyer. Perhaps Snoke was compensating for something…

The Death Star and the Executor are fine because they’re the culmination of the galaxy-ruling Empire’s power. Those ships are what infinite money and a firm grasp on all supply lines and independent contractors gets you. And they’re single ships. They have to construct a new Death Star when they want another.

But the rules of the Disney Trilogy are evidently “bigger ship every movie” despite whatever happened 18 hours ago in TFA. Starkiller was ridiculous. The First Order has infinite money. Infinite crew. Despite supposedly being a “fringe group” attempting to rise to power on the edge of the galaxy.

Remember that the visual dictionary says than Snoke’s Ship has a crew of TWO MILLION the next time a disney fan tries to convince you the First Order is “small” or resource constrained.

Pretty sure P-51’s defy physics in Lucas’ Red Tails movie. Spacecraft don’t make noise in a vacuum either. 😉

I don’t take much stock in what the visual dictionary says. Would you take what they imply about Snoke as gospel?

The two million passes the eye test too just based on how freaking overly huge that ship was.

And again, I don’t care about realistic physics at all. I just want the in-universe abilities to remain constant between movies. The X-Wing powerslide was the new Legolas skateboard.

What is obvious is that Snoke and the First Order are a continuation of the Empire. From the equipment they have and the developments they have made, it seem pretty clear that they have access to the designs of the Empire and the ability to manufacture equipment on the same scale.

Well yes, that is obvious by what transpires in the movie.

But Disney and Disney Apologists are very insistent that the First Order is just a small remnant in the Unknown Regions. Despite them nuking the entire New Republic. Despite building StarKiller base and now Snoke’s ship. Despite everything in the movie telling you that they’re just as big and bad as the Empire. Despite there being only about 12 Resistance members left in the entire galaxy. And about 6 lines of dialog between the two movies to try to explain/hoodwink all of the above.

The world-building in the Disney Trilogy is creatively bankrupt. It’s as big of a problem here as the bad acting/directing were a problem in the Prequels.

As much as I enjoyed TFA, the Starkiller Base really strained the friendship. I was kind of okay with it until the scene in the Reb…uh Resistance briefing room where Poe says “this was the Death Star, this is SK base”. Until then I’d figured SK was actually a cool economical way to build a Death Star by sinking an ionic cannon into an existing celestial body and thus saving billions on housing. Instead the comparison showed that even the ‘built’ parts of SK measured several Death Stars! So yeah, where the frack did the FO get the funding for all this stuff?

Post
#1165097
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

lovelikewinter said:

For those of you who are questioning Luke’s actions- he’s suffering from severe depression. Depression can really fuck with you and speaking from experience you do stuff that’s not normal for you.

Yes, but the question is down to whether Luke Skywalker being depression-prone is tonally consistent with his character as established by the OT. Obviously anyone, even Luke, could succumb to depression, but that’s like saying Superman could feasibly get fat and bald. It’s possible, but does it feel right? Luke’s entire victory/arc in the OT was about his mastery of his emotions, his darker impulses. One could reasonably assume that such a person wouldn’t succumb to depression very easily. For a lot of fans, the leap from ‘eternal optimist and Jedi Knight’ to ‘defeated hobo’ is too jarring - not so much because of fan conservatism but because it doesn’t feel realistic in the context of what has gone before.

I’m not sure how I feel about it myself, but I do get why there’s a controversy here. (And by the way this post is in no way intended to trivialise yours or anyone’s experiences with these things.)

Post
#1164712
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Michael Ward said:

Creox said:

With regards to the DS being able to use a hyperdrive. I am stunned that people think it wouldn’t. Space is really, really big…I mean, really big. For the DS to not be able to fly at lightspeed would render it completely useless for striking fear into the galaxy.

Of course it realisticly needs a hyperdrive, but I’m not sure if that was the original intent. In the older Superman comics stuff was always just drifting from Krypton to earth with no propulsion at all more less a hyperdrive. Writers didn’t always think that stuff through, and Lucas probably didn’t either.

Indeed, the Falcon famously went from the Anoat system to Bespin sans hyperdrive, so clearly spacial distances are not a huge concern in the SW universe (I bet there’s a debate about that little trip somewhere in these forums!)…

Post
#1164568
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Frank your Majesty said:

Shopping Maul said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Why didn’t the Death Star just jump in a position where it could immediately fire at Yavin 4, instead of circling the planet for half an hour?

Because it was clearly tracking/following the Millennium Falcon. The film shows the Falcon, having come out of hyperspace, arriving at a big red planet and flying under (around) it to a little blue planet. It makes sense that the DS would follow suit and assess things from there.

Wouldn’t the tracking device show them where exactly the Falcon is in relation to the planet?

My own explanation is that there are certain hyperspace routes, which are safe to travel. Outside of these routes, you can only go under light speed. The DS could only enter Yavin’s orbit at this specific point.

The same thing applies to TLJ. Once the Resistance ships were fleeing, the nearest hyperspace access point was behind them, so the FO couldn’t simply jump ahead.

Those are great theories. In the case of the DS in ep.4 I think we’re overthinking it. It seems to me that the visuals were very deliberate in this instance, because George and co. needed that particular sense of tension for the film’s climax - hence the scenes showing the Falcon approaching Yavin and then going beyond to the moon (I think the idea of Yavin itself being a gas giant was deliberate too ie you probably can’t blow up a gas giant). Then we see the DS approaching Yavin and Tarkin gets the “moon with the base is on the far side” call. The DS has clearly followed the Falcon’s path precisely. It makes sense for the DS to come out of hyperspace right where the Falcon did and follow from there. Since Han had already established that hyperspace jumps were a precise business, it makes sense that you wouldn’t risk simply warping to the end point of a tracking exercise (the DS might collide with a planet or accidentally occupy the same space as the Yavin moon). It makes more sense to come out of warp at the edge of the system (where the Falcon did) and mark their progress from there.

By the way I had no problem with the space-chase in TLJ at all. I thought it was a really cool idea and didn’t entertain the notion of FO ships warping ahead and cutting them off. That actually sounds too complicated to me (can ships warp such tiny distances? I guess I’m agreeing with your ‘hyperspace access points’ theory in a way) and I love the sadism of Hux deciding to simply flow with it all and keep the pressure up.

In fact whatever my niggling beefs with this movie, the idea of starting the film immediately after its predecessor, and having that chase be the whole body of the movie is genius as far as I’m concerned. We’re so used to gaps of 1 to 10 years between these films, so this was a real breath of fresh air.

Post
#1164301
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Frank your Majesty said:

Why didn’t the Death Star just jump in a position where it could immediately fire at Yavin 4, instead of circling the planet for half an hour?

Because it was clearly tracking/following the Millennium Falcon. The film shows the Falcon, having come out of hyperspace, arriving at a big red planet and flying under (around) it to a little blue planet. It makes sense that the DS would follow suit and assess things from there.

Post
#1164038
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Anchorhead said:

oojason said:

Collipso said:

https://medium.com/@hitRECordJoe/a-new-old-skywalker-253efda3809c

Quality article that - enjoyed reading it - nice one.

Agree. Really insightful take on the journey - Luke’s in-universe as well as actual. I’ve tried to make that same point many times here as well as an Indiana Jones board I lurked on many years ago. It’s very hard to explain to twenty-year-olds how different things will be 40 years from now.

When you have no framework for what four decades even feels like, you can’t possibly grasp how the journey changes you. So many things that seem of major importance to you at 20 will be long forgotten when you’re 60.

Forty years on from that summer long ago, I’m not even similar to who I was at 15. I would have been disappointed if all we got was ROTJ Luke with a beard. I may have done a scene or two a little differently, but I have no problem with Luke having changed since he was a farm boy.

It’s interesting that one of the things most polarizing about the film is also one of the things they handled so well. It says more about the audience than it does about the movie.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you - I too would have been disappointed with a bearded ROTJ Luke - but I wonder if TLJ Luke really reflects 40 years’ worth of growth/change or has he reverted back to a pre-ROTJ state? Even Yoda steps in with some sanctimony about Luke’s “always looking to the horizon” (or something), but it was Luke’s romantic idealism that elevated him beyond the rigid ‘just kill the bad guys’ attitude of the old orthodoxy.

I’m really on the fence with all of this myself. As a fan of the (never-filmed) Kurtz version of ROTJ, I love the idea of a disillusioned Luke going into exile and struggling with the murky edges of Jedi ethics and the Force. But at the same time I’m not sure I can see Luke ever actually quitting entirely.

I’m also not certain we really want our heroes to be like normal people anyway. As a big fan of Conan the Barbarian, I recall reading somewhere that writer/director John Milius intended a sequel where old King Conan had lost his mojo and was sitting around getting fat and letting his fighting skills go to hell. Again, a disillusioned old Conan being somewhat broken and grizzled on his throne sounds cool. But slow and fat? Sure, normal people get slow and fat - but not Conan. It’s just not in his character, realistic or no.

I think the controversy around Luke is more about whether his actions are in character and true to the mythos, rather than whether people just can’t handle change. It’s a bit like having a movie about Spider-Man in his 60s where Peter Parker is all “screw responsibility - just give me power!”. It might be feasible that he go through such a jarring ethical conversion, but it doesn’t necessarily make for a good Spidey tale.

Again, not disagreeing so much as just thinking out loud…

Post
#1162807
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mrebo said:

Shopping Maul said:

Why would Rey even know about Anakin’s bedside conversion? I can’t imagine that any rebel worth their salt would be impressed by the notion that Darth Vader’s soul was saved at the last minute. How did this so-called legend spread? And why?
It would’ve been so much better if Rey had simply said “you defeated the Emperor at the battle of Endor!” and Luke had responded with “well, it was a little more complicated than that”. Having the whole Vader/Anakin story become legend makes no sense to me.

But everyone in the galaxy saw the movies! The reaction video of Ben watching ESB is priceless. When he finds out about Vader being Luke’s father he tears Leia and Han’s living room apart. That’s when he was sent off to Luke.

Ha ha, plus he was somewhat grossed out when Mom gave Uncle Luke that big kiss!

Post
#1162716
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

They are failures for not recognizing the risk Anakin presented, and for failing to stop Palpatine, but they at least did everything in their power to reverse the situation. In my view Luke is a far bigger failure, for not even attempting to fix his mistake, and refusing to help even when he was asked in a most desperate hour. He came around it the end, but only when the situation had completely spun out of control, something that might not have happened, if he had acted like a true Jedi years earlier.

Well, this would devolve into a lot of prequel talk, but let’s just say that Obi-wan, Yoda, and Mace are responsible for Anakin’s fall. It was a failure to teach him how to handle his emotions. Luke thinks he made the same mistake with Ben, but the conversation between Han and Leia clearly shows that Ben was troubled long before training with Luke. Luke did fail to see the darkness in Ben much as the PT Jedi failed to sense Palpatine and Anakin’s weakness.

As for Luke’s fame post ROTJ, the galaxy would want to know how Vader and the Emperor died. And I’m sure Han and Leia had a hand in spreading the word. As has been pointed out before, this is the stuff of legends. But TFA made it clear that the events of the OT were widely known. Rey heard about them on Jakku.

Yes, but not necessarily the specifics of Vader’s redemption. Imagine Luke arriving at the Ewok party and telling the rebels - many of whom would have lost wives and kids and friends and entire worlds to Vader and his Empire - that Vader was his Dad and that he’d turned out to be a swell guy! I mean Luke would’ve been lynched, and rightly so. It just seems to me that the only thing worthy of ‘legend’ is the notion that a Jedi named Luke Skywalker defeated Emperor Palpatine. Beyond that vague ‘fact’, Luke’s story is merely a kind of self-absorbed religious family drama rather than the stuff of legends.

Funnily enough before I wrote this post, my wife pointed out that Leia may have told Rey the specifics of Vader’s redemption just before sending Rey to meet Luke. That makes more sense to me than a legend springing from Luke’s having his butt saved by Dad who’d had a sudden change of heart (while the actual war raged outside).

Post
#1162675
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Why would Rey even know about Anakin’s bedside conversion? I can’t imagine that any rebel worth their salt would be impressed by the notion that Darth Vader’s soul was saved at the last minute. How did this so-called legend spread? And why?
It would’ve been so much better if Rey had simply said “you defeated the Emperor at the battle of Endor!” and Luke had responded with “well, it was a little more complicated than that”. Having the whole Vader/Anakin story become legend makes no sense to me.

Post
#1162179
Topic
The original Marvel Star Wars series
Time

I’ll echo what’s been said here and tip the hat to the ‘Wheel saga’ and the ‘8 Against a World’ Seven Samurai story. The Shira Brie stuff was amazing (I’d love someone to do a Marvel-canon ‘infinities’ series that rewrites ROTJ with Shira as the ‘other hope’) and I thought ‘The Last Jedi’ was a great issue.
And how beautiful was that moment in the rain when Threepio had been entrusted with the Bothan tapes?

Post
#1160037
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

chyron8472 said:

Shopping Maul said:

chyron8472 said:

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

Maybe, as a Jedi, Ben Kenobi feels it is appropriate to let Luke face his own battles rather than directly interfering. To do so would disrupt Luke’s journey toward becoming a Jedi because it could turn Luke into a noob by relying on Ben to solve Luke’s problems.

That is, Ben could interfere, but chooses not to because it is inappropriate in order for Luke to forge his own path correctly. When Ben says “I can not interfere”, he’s referring to a moral code rather than a physical limitation.

I think there’s a nice simplicity to the idea of force-ghosts as personal guides only. Giving them discretionary physicality muddies the waters somewhat (as evidenced by this thread).

But Ben Kenobi says to Vader “If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.” Pigeonholing him then into someone only capable of talking would, I think, cheapen his potential power as a sentient non-corporeal being of the Force itself. Sure, he doesn’t do more than guide in the OT, but that doesn’t mean he literally can’t. The OT just leaves any further possible force-ghost powers a mystery because neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda use them.

My interpretation (back in the day) of Obi’s line was that he knew he’d be around in ghostly form to guide the new hope (you know who) to victory against the bad guys. I saw it as a subtle thing - the kind of power that would escape the notice of the power-hungry Sith. Kind of a ‘the power of knowledge’ type thing rather than "I’ll be God-like!!"
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you. Obviously there is a lot of room for interpretation with these things, but I much prefer a ‘ghosts as guides’ model. There was a beautiful spiritual ambiguity to Force ghosts in the OT (and the Force itself for that matter) that I think has been demystified by subsequent films.

Post
#1160035
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Forgot that little detail. (Yet I remember Creepy Tiny Purple Concept Art Yoda that was in early press runs.) Given the comics were done without the advantage of having seen the films that may have been an abandoned script idea.
I also seem to recall Vader hearing Luke’s call to Ben for help before he requests his shuttle.

Yes, that’s right! Wow, I had that original version (with purple Yoda). Wish I hadn’t given it up…

I have scans of those specific pages if you’re feeling nostalgic.

Really? Wow, that’d be awesome, but I can’t promise I won’t cry tears of nostalgic joy!

Post
#1159707
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

chyron8472 said:

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

Maybe, as a Jedi, Ben Kenobi feels it is appropriate to let Luke face his own battles rather than directly interfering. To do so would disrupt Luke’s journey toward becoming a Jedi because it could turn Luke into a noob by relying on Ben to solve Luke’s problems.

That is, Ben could interfere, but chooses not to because it is inappropriate in order for Luke to forge his own path correctly. When Ben says “I can not interfere”, he’s referring to a moral code rather than a physical limitation.

Yes, that’s fair enough, and I’m guessing that was Lucas’ original intention (given that ghost-Obi and ghost-Yoda helped battle Palpatine in an early draft of ROTJ). It just gets a bit ethically tricky for me. When is ghost-intervention appropriate? Should Luke die for a religious education but burning trees is okay? I think there’s a nice simplicity to the idea of force-ghosts as personal guides only. Giving them discretionary physicality muddies the waters somewhat (as evidenced by this thread).

Post
#1159588
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

SilverWook said:

Forgot that little detail. (Yet I remember Creepy Tiny Purple Concept Art Yoda that was in early press runs.) Given the comics were done without the advantage of having seen the films that may have been an abandoned script idea.
I also seem to recall Vader hearing Luke’s call to Ben for help before he requests his shuttle.

Yes, that’s right! Wow, I had that original version (with purple Yoda). Wish I hadn’t given it up…

Post
#1159583
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

The problem with Yoda’s lightning powers is that it opens a can of worms where none needed to be. If RJ just went with what the OT had more or less established, we wouldn’t have to start inventing ways to make it all fit. Yoda could’ve just dispensed great advice - which is what FGs do - and Luke could’ve burned the tree down. It’s not a huge deal, but it does make one start to wonder why these ghostly guys didn’t intervene earlier. Why is it all hands on deck for a tree-burning but no help during the ‘Palpatine blasts Luke’ moment in ROTJ (for example)?

😛

Nobody is inventing anything, all the visual information is in the darn movie! Stormy weather plus island dripping in Force energy means Yoda could fry Porgs if he wanted to.

Sorry, I’m not sure which ‘darn movie’ you’re referring to. Is your ROTJ photo evidence of physical interaction? I’d say no. While the notion of the ghosts appearing to sit on logs and /or Ewok fences suggests an appearance of interaction in a vague sense (as opposed to just floating like Casper) it by no means suggests that old Anakin might reach over to Luke and adjust his tie. The inference in the OT is one of non-physical intervention - sagely advice, a few choruses of ‘trust your feelings’ and so forth. Once we go down the dark path of suggesting ghosts with physical attributes, we have to wonder why they don’t just show up willy nilly and throw random crockery at Snoke, or cover Kylo’s eyes peekaboo-style while he’s duelling Rey. I just think it would have been better to preserve the ghosts as they were and expand the lore in other ways.

The most recent movie.
Worth considering we’ve never seen a Force ghost appear in an artificial place like the Death Star or Cloud City, only in a natural setting. Ben probably can’t appear and interfere with the Bespin duel if he wanted to.

Manipulating the energies in an approaching storm and throwing crockery are two wholly different things.

Why Ben didn’t just appear in the Wampa cave and yell Boo! we may never know. 😛

I quite like the ‘natural’ settings’ thesis, but I think I’d still rather they merely kept force ghosts in a strictly advisory role.
Actually, you’ll probably remember that in the Marvel TESB adaptation Obi Wan’s voice appeared in the Wampa cave and said “Luke, you must think the sabre into your hand…”. Non-canon now of course, but still…

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