Yeah, you could just change all of his lines and give him a new voice. It’s not like he has a ton of lines.
I think if we are trying to find the most agreeable version of Rey Nobody for Ascendant, making Rey a clone of Palpatine doesn’t make sense. To me, Clone Rey should replace the standard Rey Palpatine, not be the version of Rey Nobody. Because Clone Rey still defeats the idea and theme of Rey Nobody. Imo, in a Rey Nobody edit, Rey should have zero previous connection to Palpatine or anyone else.
But I think something like Rey Clone or Rey Anti-Chosen One (Sith’ari) could replace a straight up “You’re Palpatine biological granddaughter”. Because you end up with the same point (the Skywalkers vs Palpatines if you’re into that) but avoid the whole idea of “Palpatine Fucks”.
Maybe I’m playing the role of pessimist but I feel like if I heard this Rey Clone dialogue in theaters, I would’ve rolled my eyes at it just as much as I did with the theatrical Rey Palpatine reveal. Sure, it’s different, but it still betrays the point of the the Rey Nobody reveal in TLJ.
Again, I guess this is just me voicing my point of view, but I believe the most inoffensive version of Rey Nobody would be one that just focuses on her visions of the future and Rey’s sense of self-worth, and doesn’t try to reveal more about Rey’s backstory. This way, Rey Palpatine could technically still be canon to that version, but it just isn’t brought up or mentioned in the film.
I feel like there are tons of movies and stories are out there where our hero has to confront the villain and be tempted to join their side and they’re not related to the villain.
Happy holidays Sherlock!
Great work on what you have done so far for you edit! I have posted much but I’ve been keeping up with yours.
This version of the hangar scene is nice! I’m curious how you got some of the lines for Kylo. Some work but there are some that feel a little off. I wonder if his last masked line could be “Save the galaxy” or something so you get a little less redundancy with the word “everyone”. It still fits with saving everyone, but maybe speaks a little to Kylo’s motivations.
Also, this is more of a thought I’ve had in general about the scene, but I think a rescore of this scene, plus slightly trimming the “reveal” moment, would go a long way to help make new dialogue like your fit more seamlessly. It still feels like the way the camera dollies in on Rey, her reaction, and the swelling music, really feels like it is building up to some big moment of impact. I don’t feel like Kylo’s current dialogue (which I like) totally fits the way the scene plays out with the editing and the music, if that makes sense. I might be wrong, but it could be interesting for someone to play around with.
Anyway, good work Sherlock!
Congrats NFB! Very well-deserved.
I like the ideas. Granted, it does give Kylo less of a reason to reforge his mask which Ascendant fixes pretty well. Then again, I never had much of an issue with that to begin with. I’d be curious to see what else you can come up with here.
Sure, Ascendant gives us flashbacks to ‘a creature in a mask’, but I don’t think that is a reason for Kylo to reforge it. If anything, I’d think Kylo would want to connect with Rey without the mask to interfere, so that Rey would view him as more of a person.
I think the most coherent reason for the reforging (other than rule of cool) is simply that he’s ‘serving another master’ but with an ulterior motive, so the helmet would mask his expressions while also visually signifying that he’s taking the role of Vader in Palpatine’s orbit. I don’t think we can get a deeper character reason, so to go from meeting Palpatine to the mask reforging would strengthen that concept.
Ascendent already does give a motivation with the Knights of Ren voices. Wearing the mask could partly be due to obligation toward his Knights. Perhaps the emergence of Palpatine, or this new mission to hunt down Rey, is sort of why he is doing it now and not sooner. But it could be a combo of the Knights of Ren, and like you said, signifying his role in Palpatine’s orbit, as you said.
Honestly, what the Knights are exactly are kept pretty vague, but I feel like you could elaborate here and there a little.
For example, when the helmet is being reforged, you can have one of the Knights say, “May our bond never again be broken” (I think broken would sound better than shattered, which I think is currently the word used in the Ascendent version). And then, as he is putting it on, the Knights could chant something like, “Long live the Sith”. Which I think would demonstrate that although they are loyal to Kylo, they worship the Sith. So when Palpatine reappeared, they are also loyal to him and would explain why the Knights fight Kylo on Exegol.
I’m pretty sure a new line does exist here in Ascendant, but when the Knights of Ren pass the stormtroopers in the hallway, I think it could be nice for the second stormtrooper could say, “Jedi hunters”, just to clarify what exactly their job description is. Sort of like the Imperial officer in Empire Strikes Back saying, “Bounty hunters. We don’t need that scum” to clarify to the audience who these guys are exactly.
Looking retrospectively back at the other movies, I think it would be nice if there could be some way to hint at Snoke’s affiliation with the Sith as well. Whether it be Snoke stating his goal to bring back the Sith, and/or someone else describing Snoke as a Sith cultist himself. It would make sense to do so, since he already walks and talks like a Sith. And, after Kylo kills him, Kylo explicitly says it is time for both the Jedi AND the Sith to die, which I don’t think Kylo would’ve said if Snoke did not affiliate himself with the Sith.
I think the question regarding Snoke is, if he was so powerful in the Force, why didn’t he proclaim himself as a Sith? Of course we know he was made by Palpatine, but what did Snoke tell Kylo about himself? At the very least, it did appear that Snoke saw Kylo as the heir to the Sith, or at least that is what he told Kylo. It would be nice if there was even a little clarification for this in the first two movies.
It does seem like the dagger would have been made recently by Ochi, doesn’t it? It may be easier to find one moment to state that somewhere rather than change several moments to make the blade seem older.
If the blade was made, say, fifteen years ago, then it would even make sense to keep the goonies moment in.
But why would he create a dagger with a shape resembling the death star wreck?
So we can have a Goonies moment. I’m sure it was a visual JJ realized would be cool regardless of logic.
I think these are really good points and ideas. RotJ really works at the end because Luke faces so much temptation. Rey has a tending towards the dark but that temptation could really be emphasised.
Speaking of the dagger, now that it operates by whisper rather than the absolutely contrived pointing, it’s remaining flaw as a plot device is that the good guys stumble upon it in an absolute quirk of chance. Perhaps it could be implied that it’s somehow drawn Rey to it- either through Palpatine’s machinations or its own.
Maybe after they fall into the tunnels, after Finn says, “Which way out of here?”, we could change Rey’s off screen line from “We have to hurry” to something like, “Wait, I sense something this way…” after she turns away from camera.
And like Dimitrios mentioned, perhaps we could squeeze in a line from Lando about the caves, but I’m not sure how it could/should be phrased. If Lando mentions the caves, then the audience will wonder why him and Luke didn’t check them if Lando knows about them. And I don’t think there is enough time during their scene with Lando for him to really rationalize it. Maybe he could say, “Maybe he fell in the sinking fields”. Again, may run into the same problem.
I like those write ups btw Starkiller! Really need to play around with making clean audio for those two scenes so people can play around with them.
See, but still mentioning “where the last war ended” kind of defeats the purpose of changing the inscription to feel more ancient.
You could have it where right as Babu goes “Hey-aye!” after 3PO delivers the message, the room immediately shakes and they go check to see what it is, leaving no time for comment. You could even add Poe saying off-screen “Useless…” as he walks up to 3PO as Rey goes upstairs.
Then, when they’re running in the streets, you could cut the “move your metal ass” bit and have Poe say something about trying to get dagger, or splitting up to get it. Or just having one of them saying it when they’re on the Star Destroyer. Cut the brief scene of them shooting all of the cameras and Rey saying they need the dagger and Poe asking why.
Finally, when Finn and Rey are working on the Falcon after they escape, this is where you can reinsert Finn’s line off screen, “Endor? Where the last war ended?” This tells the audience that Rey has told the others about what she heard from the dagger in Kylo’s chambers.
If we wanted to make the dagger something ancient, and the description more generic, you could give it an inscription like this:
“To be worthy of the Wayfinder,
the final test for the great Sith secret,
One must wield this blade,
Sacrifice their light,
And embrace the call to the dark.
Only this blade knows, only this blade tells.”
On the Redux thread I mentioned the idea of adding intelligible whispers to the Sith whispering, so when she picks it up in Kylo’s chambers, maybe over the Sith whispering we can also hear a faint whisper of the word(s), “Endor… Death Star…” Perhaps Rey’s eyes could turn faintly yellow just to indicate Rey is tapping into the dark.
If you wanted to just show a flash of the Death Star, you could change the word “knows” to “shows” in the inscription.
And then, when Rey is standing on the cliff edge, and when she traversing through the Death Star wreckage, we hears specific whispers like, “Come”, “Follow”, “Here”, etc. It would be a nice touch if the whispers were coming from specific audio channels depending on the direction the Wayfinder is.
Nev, does Rey really have to be connected to the dagger and Ochi and the ship? I feel like all of this can be changed, and trying to stick with it really just limits what you can do with this movie. You said you wanted to perform a full appendectomy. I think THIS is what needs to be removed here.
Why don’t we cut out all of the plot bullshit and make these scenes more character-focused conversations? To me, talking about Rey’s parents being killed by Palpatine, or some prophecy that she is tied to, is not compelling or relatable. It’s all exposition. There are no “scenes”, it’s all just plot. Set piece to set piece. I’m truly wondering if the conversation was just more general, like Kylo making an argument for the dark side, if it could be worded in a way that is actually compelling for an audience. At least more compelling than trying to communicate a complicated previously unknown origin story for Rey. Are there ways that we can make this conversation go in a way that can make people think about their own moments of weakness? To think about times we wanted to take the quick and easy path to get what we wanted? Or how we might really be bad people and we’re just fooling ourselves by trying to avoid that truth?
I just think this could be a great opportunity to put a little more meat on the bones of this movie. If you think about a lot of moments in the other Star Wars movies that we love, oftentimes the things the characters talk about or say are things we can somehow apply to our own lives and experiences. Like when Yoda talks about the Force. We might not believe in the Force, but think of the way Yoda describes it, “life creates it, makes it grow, it’s energy surrounds us, and binds us. Luminous being are we, not this crude matter”. I think a lot of people can’t help but feel something spiritual when they hear this. It’s vague enough to be applicable to us regardless of our religious views. Or this conversation on the dark side:
Luke: Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know. When you are calm, at peace, passive.
See? There’s no lore or plot mumbo jumbo. Yoda’s not talking about kyber crystals or philosophies of the Ashla and the Bogan. It’s the good side and the bad. I feel like a lot of fans heard this conversation about the dark side and couldn’t help but relate it to their real life experience in some way. “Would I be able to recognize the difference between doing the the good thing or the bad?”
My initial pitch for the duel convo basically boiled down to Kylo telling Rey that she has power, but can’t control it. And that he could help her learn how to. But I’m wondering if it could be something that is a little more clear or consistent with how the dark side is portrayed in the rest of the franchise. So, what if Kylo said stuff about how Rey is screwing herself over by trying to bottle up the dark side within her?
No idea for specifics, just spitballing, but here are some examples of lines he could say:
You’re not ready to face Palpatine. You don’t have enough time. But the dark side can get you where you need to be.
You’re holding back.
The dark side is a part of you. If you don’t accept it, it will tear you apart. Without it, you are unbalanced. You’re losing yourself. And you will lose your friends too.
I can’t find the video, but there’s one Rise of Skywalker review that discusses the Chewie “death” scene. In it, the reviewer states that if Rey could’ve used the dark side and succeeded at what she was trying to accomplish, it would’ve made the potential of her falling more believable. Even though we can’t really change that, I think we can get a similar idea across with what we’re given. I think we (and through the film, Kylo) have to frame Rey’ hurting and potentially hurting her friends as a product of her inability to accept the dark side within her. She’s holding back, bottling it up. And because of that, it erupts at the worst moments. She can’t accomplish her goals. And during the Force bond duel, you could even have Kylo reference Nev’s version of their forest duel in TFA, where she tapped into the dark side and actually defeated him. Proving his point.
You could even frame their encounter on Pasaana all as Kylo intentionally testing her. When he is flying towards her, he could say, “Do it” or “Show me” in his cockpit. When the Knights of Ren see Chewbacca, maybe they could even say something like, “The bait.” All of it was just to show Rey how unbalanced she is. She’s strong but she’s a mess. The dark side is the quick and easy path, and Rey is out of time to train (which would tie into her obsession with training more at the beginning of the film). Even though I think the film is better off with the removal of the clearly stated time period they are racing against, I do think having the sense of a race against the clock that the movie has helps as another argument for why Rey might give in. She’s out of time to train, she’s not strong enough.
And you can even tie the McGuffin’s into this. We already kind of have with the dagger whispering to Rey, but what if the whispering started off unintelligible, but by the time she reaches the Wayfinder, we can hear actual words. Maybe some of it is actual directions, like, “Come. Follow. Higher. Closer.”, but maybe we could also hear the Sith code being recited hypnotically, or pieces of it. Or maybe words that sew more doubt into her. “Unworthy. Not ready. Unbalanced. Lost. Weak. Alone.” Stuff like that. I could even picture a version of the approach where the whispers are now a chorus of load shouting, yelling over each other, almost symbolic of anxiety or someone’s inner voices feeding into their insecurities. Just to the point of being overwhelming, Rey grabs the Wayfinder and… silence. Relief. But just as she thinks she is free, the manifestation of her insecurities appears before her. And then she fights it, and when Dark Rey sneers at her, we can have it say “Weak!” in a sneering tone to match. The whole quest and encounter should just be digging into Rey’s doubts and insecurities.
While I don’t think any new revelations should be given about her parents, Kylo could maybe even suggest that her parents may have given her up because they were afraid of her (Like his parents may have been afraid of him).
And that ties into another thought I had. What could make the new dialogue scenes even greater is if we added some subtext to it. For example, Kylo might be going on and on about Rey’s problems, not committing to the dark side or whatever, but we know that he still also struggles with that. Even after everything, he still feels the pull to the light. His parents have been like an anchor, keeping him from being pulled into the riptide of the dark side despite his best efforts.
And maybe that ties into what he is offering Rey that is different than Palpatine. If she joins Palpatine, she’ll go full dark. But if she joins Kylo, maybe he think they can achieve some misguided view of balance. She can be his anchor and he can be hers. Kylo might be thinking, “maybe that’s why I still feel the pull to the light”. If she shifts closer to the dark, he’ll shift closer to the light. They’ll find peace, he’ll finally be at peace. And that might even help set up this idea Nev is beautifully playing with m Kylo’s conscience (in the voice of Han) staying his hand the moment before he kills Rey. He thinks Rey is gonna fix his problems, but the solution to his inner peace is actually within himself.
Nev, I actually was initially surprised you wanted to drop the dyad idea, at least explicitly, but I’ve realized that his opinion on that actually perfectly lines up with what I’ve been saying on this post. So yeah, now I agree with Nev that maybe Kylo and Rey’s connection doesn’t need to be named per se. Maybe even when Palpatine first gets a taste of their Force bond, you could change his lines from “A dyad in the Force. A power like life itself. Unseen for generations” to something else. Those first two sentences are said on screen but Palpatine’s face is out of focus so perhaps it could be changed. But I like the idea that Palpatine zaps them, feels it, and is like, “What the hell is this? I’ve never seen anything like this.” I just like the idea that despite all of his power and planning, Palpatine would fail to comprehend the possibility of a bond between two people, enhanced by the Force, being so powerful.
Anyway, I’m sorry I just keep saying the same stuff over and over again. Maybe it’s just me, and I can stop if it’s getting annoying. I just feel like the solution is in simplifying things, and I worry that trying to invent a new elaborate backstory for Rey is missing what is important in order to make Rey’s journey in this movie more relatable and compelling.
I was gonna offer helping with the audio transitions but I’m so happy NFB is helping out! It’s cool that y’all are collaborating.
I also think your logic for the order of who finds out about the Aldhani heist makes sense.
That definitely could be good if you want to keep Rey’s parents being killed by Ochi! I still kinda lean toward cutting that stuff out.
Honestly I’m kinda of surprised you want to cut the Force dyad stuff, because I feel like it compliments your ideas for the Sith throne thematically! And I’m honestly all in on implementing that idea in a future edit. The bonds of human connection being stronger than material greed.
But you are right that it is sort of half-baked as presented in the movie. But I feel like it should be expanded upon to explain things like how their minds are able to connect, and how they are able to pass things physically between themselves. It is definitely beyond anything we have seen before. I think I would just try to set up the idea earlier in the film. My idea has been to try and hint at the Force whispers more in the previous movies leading Rey to the saber and the texts, maybe add Anakin whispering “Rey”, and then in IX reveal/imply that Anakin and/or the Force ghosts brought them together. So earlier in TROS, Kylo has a vision where he hears the voice of Anakin say, “I/we brought you together, a dyad in the Force”. Maybe when Kylo touches Vader’s helmet, or when he picks up the wayfinder. I definitely think it would be nice to set up earlier so we see how Kylo knows about it whenever he tells Rey.
Perhaps you could make it more subtle, but I think using the Force ghosts as sort of a conduit to act on the will of the Force is an interesting way to juxtapose Palpatine’s machinations. There is a hidden battle happening between these two forces. Palpatine manipulating Kylo, Anakin/the Jedi spirits guiding Rey.
Yeah I think Palpatine’s plan is a worthy discussion to have too.
At one point I considered a potentially option could be something like this:
Palpatine knows Kylo wants Rey (everything with Snoke proved that), so when they meet on Exegol he tells Kylo, “You shall rule all the galaxy as the new Emperor… and Empress…” This gets Kylo to lower his weapon and listen to what Palpatine has to say. And maybe he even tells Kylo his plans to possess her, saying it is the only way he can have her. But Kylo doesn’t want Rey to lose her soul, so he does what he can to prevent her from going to Exegol. Maybe he knows the healing abilities of the Force dyad at this point, or maybe he doesn’t.
Alternatively, and sticking closer to the theatrical, this is another way you can do it:
Palpatine, whose experiment with immortality seems to be slowly failing, offers Kylo Ren to be his successor, maybe even telling him that he has groomed him for this role. That it is his destiny.
But to prove his resolve, he has to kill Rey. But Kylo has had a vision of Rey on the Sith throne. He know Palpatine isn’t telling him everything, and it’s true. Palpatine sees Rey and Kylo fighting as a win/win scenario. Whoever doesn’t die, he can seduce and possess. Palpatine just isn’t aware that their Force bond has the power to actually resurrect him. This basically how Ascendent has it I think, and the the theatrical film as far as I recall, just maybe not as clear as it could be.
Another thing I find interesting is reading the leaks of an earlier version of the film. It seemed like at one point in production, Palpatine was going to appear very weak/frail when Kylo encountered him, maybe even on his death bed. Palpatine was going to tell Kylo about the dyad, and that he wants Kylo and Rey to rule together as a Sith power couple basically. And it seemed that Palpatine was aware that their Force bond had the power to resurrect him (kept that info form
Kylo obviously), and bringing them both to Exegol was his goal from the beginning. I’m guessing they chose not to go that route because they didn’t want Kylo to just be following Palpatine’s orders, or having Palpatine tell Kylo to bring Rey to Exegol would parallel ROTJ too much.
I guess another issue you have with Palpatine wanting Rey to come to Exegol is that you’d think if Palpatine could speak to Kylo in his head, he could basically telegraph to Rey where she could get a Wayfinder in order to come to him. At least by going with the option of Palpatine wants Kylo to kill Rey, you can argue he wants them to fight each other in order to determine which would be the stronger candidate as his new vessel/successor.
This could be good. I also had the idea of maybe Kylo saying that if Rey kills him, she’ll fall and join Palpatine. Like he saw her kill him in a vision, which would be surprising to Rey. So when she almost kills Kylo, it’s what triggers her to go to Ahch-To. So kinda similar to your idea, but a little more big picture with destroying the Skywalkers in general.
I might try to see if I have time to mess with the scene and make clean audio for people to insert dialogue into. If we wanted to replicate the audio 1:1, the new dialogue would need to echo into the other channels. But I could at least make clean channels and then once dialogue is decided, those lines could be added to the other channels.
Yeah, those are all good points. I don’t imagine this as a Rey Nobody edit, so much as a 'Rey Somebody but it makes a bit more sense and we don’t have to think about Palpatine having sex’ edit.
Lol this mental image has haunted me ever since 2019 and has been driving me this whole time.
Yeah, I think making a clean Rey nobody version as a base is a good idea first. Then we can use it to make some more radical ideas. The Rey nobody version of ascendant is honestly pretty good on its own so I’m not sure what else needs to be done to get this clean version. Is there anything not present in that version that we would like to add without adding any more complex storylines?
One thing Spence did (and did well) was heavily trim the hangar duel scene to cut out existing dialogue related to Rey Palpatine. I think now with the voice AI stuff, we could potentially redo the audio for this scene and add some new dialogue. Just generally making the scene feel less edited and more seamless by padding it out more to something a little more closer to the theatrical version.
I also think it wouldn’t hurt to revisit the current Rey Nobody version and see if everything makes sense narratively, or if we could make some changes that will help the whole thing make more sense.
It is crazy to think about, isn’t it? Think about how many headaches we had trying to piece new dialogue together.
But I will say I am pretty happy with how things are now. We can change dialogue where it is narratively necessary for what we’re trying to do, and I think being limited by just off-screen or masked dialogue is a good creative constraint.
Maybe you should just considering revisiting the film for new versions every so often rather than we have a new batch of ideas we can implement. Just wait a year, then implement whatever new ideas are ready to go.
I don’t think I suggested that a few pages back, but I’m sure I’ve suggested a similar idea in the past. Since Palpatine mentioned in ROTS that Plagueis had the power to create life, and it was never confirmed that Anakin was created by Plagueis (it seems like the Force created Anakin on its own, or the very least as a response to what the Sith were doing), perhaps Rey could be like an anti-Chosen One. A perfect vessel created by Palpatine.
Just a question to think about though. Does any alternate version where Rey is somehow inherently special/unique sort of defeat the purpose of a Rey Nobody edit? Based on TLJ, the only thing that makes Rey significant is her natural talent and connection with Kylo. She doesn’t have some kind of special destiny. So if you make Rey a product of Palpatine’s machinations, whether she is his descendant, his creation, his pupil, etc., you’re just replacing one thing that contradicts the message of TLJ with another.
And again, if you’re talking about canon, would making something close to “Rey Palpatine” but not “granddaughter Palpatine” be more contradictory to canon than just just bringing it up at all? If you make her whole dilemma in TROS be based on her visions of the future rather than her past, her self-doubt, etc., you don’t have to contradict her canon backstory. You’re just omitting it, and then the audience can fill in the gaps however they want, Rey Palpatine or not.
I see what you’re saying about maybe coming up with some solution so if she is referred to as a Palpatine or Palpatine’s granddaughter in future content it could still make sense, but honestly don’t you think we’d edit that stuff anyway if it gets brought up again? At this point we don’t even know if/how it will be relevant in future content. There also is a risk that these alternate backstories could make addressing narrative hiccups even more complicated if you’re worried about potentially contradicting future content.
Again, I’m not saying “my way is the right way”, just genuinely trying to brainstorm a solid option. Like I said, I’m sure I suggested Rey as a new “chosen one” or “anti-chosen one” at some point in the past, a part of me still finds it appealing! But another problem with all of these ideas is that everyone is gonna have different opinions on if they like this alternate backstory, or that alternate backstory. Because we’re having to make a new origin story for Rey almost whole-cloth, using only what we’re visually given in TROS as a skeleton, you could see how people would have different opinions about these ideas.
This is, again, a benefit of just trying to nail a version of Rey Nobody that doesn’t try to replace the Rey Palpatine reveal with some other backstory alternative. Rey’s worries about her future vision and her concerns with her ability to actually control her power are already there, so maybe we should beef that up instead. It doesn’t contradict anything because that narrative stuff is already there, it’s just sharing runtime with all of the Rey Palpatine stuff.
Still kind of have the issue where her good parents chose Unkar Plutt of all people to protect(?) their daughter.
Perhaps they kidnapped Rey from Palpatine to try and ransom her for even more money/influence and things went south? Maybe Ochi was wanting to do the same thing too, so Rey ended up lost due to everyone’s greed?
Regardless, I feel like these ideas have 2 issues. 1) They feel very exposition-heavy. Kylo just delivers A LOT of backstory that we mostly don’t see. Is it really compelling?
2) These last two versions both still contradict TLJ. I know Hal’s version of TLJ cut some of these lines but to reiterate:
“They were filthy junk traders, who sold you for drinking money. Dead, in a pauper’s grave in the Jakku desert.”
If you show the flashbacks of her “good” parents, it directly contradicts the idea that her parents sold her for drinking money, which is stated in the text of the previous film, and it is never addressed why Kylo said this despite it not being true. Did Snoke/Palpatine deceive him? If you’re gonna directly contradict what was stated in TLJ, I feel like it should be directly addressed, not left for assumption. Or edit TLJ so it isn’t stated. But if your someone who likes that reveal in TLJ, that wouldn’t be really satisfying.
Just throwing out another option, if you wanted to go with an idea that doesn’t contradict TLJ at all, I think I would cut the parent flashbacks in TROS, and make Rey’s whole dilemma be revolve her natural power vs her ability to control it. Throughout the film she hurts, or almost hurts, people she cares about because she loses control of her powers. Maybe her Jedi training isn’t enough to control her dark side. So Palpatine/Kylo can offer her mastery of her power, to protect her friends, and she struggles with the choice she has to make.
Here is a version of the Force bond duel and the hangar with this in mind.
Kylo: Wherever you are, you’re hard to find.
Rey: You’re hard to get rid of.
Kylo: I pushed you in the desert because you needed to see it. You have power, but can’t control it. Not without me. Rey.
Rey: You’re lying.
Kylo: You know it’s true. Your friends aren’t safe around you.
Rey: Don’t.
Kylo: You know what will happen to them. I’ve been in your head.
Rey: I don’t want this!
Kylo: Search your feelings!
Rey: No!
Kylo: Don’t deny it! Accept it!
Kylo: If you can’t control the dark side-
Rey: Stop talking!
Kylo: -it will control you.
Kylo: Tell me where you are, I’ll help you.
Kylo: If you face Palpatine on your own, without embracing who you are, you will not succeed. And your friends will all be destroyed.
Rey: No!
Kylo: So that’s where you are.
Kylo: You know what will happen if you face him alone.
Rey: No.
Kylo: I’ll come tell you.
Kylo: Rey, I saw what you will become. I know the rest of your story.
Rey: Tell me.
Kylo: He’ll offer you the power to save the ones you love, and you’ll sell your soul to protect them. You will join Palpatine, and take the throne. But it isn’t too late. I feel the pull to the light. And you, the darkness. We’re a dyad in the Force, Rey. Two that are one. We’ll bring true balance, together. You know it’s the only way. You know.
So really you’re playing a similar angle that Palpatine played with Anakin and with Luke in the other films, but it is built on the foundation of the insecurities that have been established for Rey. And I think this angle is the most believable as far as if the audience even partially believes it could happen. Palpatine used the same “save the ones you love” argument with Anakin, and it worked.
Another benefit to this is it actually contradicts canon the least out of any option we could go with. Rey could still be a Palpatine for all we know. That potential backstory is just simply never brought up. The identity of Palpatine’s granddaughter died with Ochi, basically. If you still want to believe that. And as far as the Ochi’s ship issue goes, you can either ignore it, change the ship in the TFA vision to a different ship or different shot, or recontextualize it as a vision of Ochi’s ship in the future (associated with her friends/future family) rather than her parent’s ship.
Maybe this reveal isn’t as big of a reveal as some other options, but it’s possible we could also edit the hangar scene to feel less like a “big reveal” moment if it felt necessary.
Whenever I mess with TROS again myself, I may just try to rebuild the SFX for the Force bond duel and the hangar scene and share them. That way, we could just have a version of those scenes so anyone can insert whatever dialogue they want into those scenes, trim it however they want, etc.
Might be the best way to test some of these ideas out.
Nev, I do like the new lines. There is a cool Moses parallel with Rey being the child that survived a purge to avoid a prophecy from coming true.
I will say that I think you summarized my thoughts pretty well at one points: What do we want to communicate? Or, what idea is the most important to us to convey?
What is the goal of the Rey Nobody edit? To stick as close to canon as possible except making Rey a Palpatine, or maintain Rey Nobody concept as it was revealed/established in TLJ?
To me, an important aspect of the TLJ reveal wasn’t just that her parents were nobodies, but that they also didn’t care about her. I think with a lot of suggested Rey Nobody options, it still retcons the reveal that her parents were shitty people and makes them martyrs for Rey’s survival. So a part of me feels going with this type of option only half-succeeds at the potential goal. An alternative that people who wanted to sees TROS as a proper follow up to TLJ won’t be 100% satisfied with (what TROS edit would be though?)
Yes, that may mean you have to alter more of TROS, but I think that brings the conversation back to what we are wanting to communicate. What is more important, details related to plot, or related to character? If it is character, then I think it is worth changing plot details, like Ochi’s ship and Rey’s parents’ ship being the same ship. I personally have trouble believing that if Rey’s parents cared enough about her to die for her, they would choose Unkar Plutt, of all people, to take care of her. Why would they sell her? It still doesn’t make a lot of sense in the theatrical version.
To me, Rey being on the same planet as the Falcon is best left as a coincidence. Maybe Rey wasn’t actually inherently gifted or powerful with the Force from birth, but when the lightsaber called to her in TFA, when she connected to Kylo’s mind, when she began believing in the Force, the Force awakened in her. Maybe the Force chose her during the events of TFA. To me, something like this gels better with the whole point of making a Rey Nobody edit in the first place.
But again, I guess it depends on what the priorities are when it comes to this type of edit. Story vs canon, ease vs difficulty, etc.
A part of me wonders if an edit that goes “Your parents were no one, BUT…” doesn’t wholly commit to the Rey Nobody concept of TROS being a film that feels like a follow-up to TLJ in a way that doesn’t contradict it. A part of me worries of any version of Kylo’s lines/monologue that is related to previously unknown information about her past will feel like a conversation that should’ve happened in the last movie. To avoid that, I think you could go the route of Kylo’s goading and reveal being related to Rey’s future and not her past. With the way TLJ ends, it makes me think it wanted Episode IX to leave Rey’s origins behind. There’s nothing important there. What’s important is who she is now and who she chooses to become.
With all that said, I do like what you’ve suggested Nev and see the benefits to this option. I mean you would just really change Kylo’s dialogue, and wouldn’t have to make a lot of cuts. Again, a lot of the ideas people throw out are good. I even flip flop on which ideas I like the best. Since we have Nev’s creative mind and others brainstorming ideas I thought it would be worth bringing this up again. I just thought it would be worth having this conversation again.
Right, that’s sort of the idea. It seems foolhardy either way going back to that crew. I know it was cut for Ascendant but Zorii says he wants to blow Poe’s brains out, which feels fitting if he was actually a rat or undercover cop, basically. The sentiment that she wants to kill him is there regardless.
I’m not typically one to care for canon, but all the novels and comics before TROS established that Poe was a New Republic pilot before he left to join the Resistance. Zorii’s line contradicts that, and leaves no room for that to still make sense. You could keep the same line, but have Zorii say, “-left to join the Republic”. I’d be happy with even that little change.
Or, maybe Zorii just found out Poe was working undercover, rather than Poe having somehow screwed up their operation.
I get what Terrio was going for, giving all of our heroes a shady past, but it just hadn’t been established that way at all for Poe up until that movie. And it is kinda weird to have the Latino character turn out to be a drug runner imo. Having him be undercover sort of mitigates that.
I mean, if you’re trying to stick to as close to canon as possible, then I definitely think the angle you’re going for would be great. I think if you’re going with that approach, I would play around with the trying stick the dialogue as close to the original as possible, and save the “reveal” of her being sold/adopted by Palpatine until the actual hangar scene.
For a “Rey killed her parents” angle, I wouldn’t worry about canon and just make Ochi’s ship and her parents ship 2 different ships.
I could potentially help with a final version of/when it comes to that.
I worry the Rey backstory stuff could be too complicated. A positive of this version would be that you could keep the movie as close to the theatrical version as possible but still make Rey not a Palpatine, or at least not one by blood.
On the other hand, you still have some retroactive issues, like her parents having a change of heart and being good or whatever.
I like this quote of your’s Nev:
We already know from the OT that having an evil relative doesn’t matter, so it doesn’t really matter if Rey is a Palpatine or not. But what does matter is a person’s training and their actions, especially in regard to the Dark Side.
This is why I do sort of keep coming back to “Rey killed her parents”. It doesn’t really contradict the last 2 films, and it stills makes it so Rey doesn’t have an important backstory. Plus her own actions in the past define her potential destiny, not her parentage. Makes it different, but not convoluted. Your general audience member would understand it.
I think making the Sith Throne a “secret” that doesn’t really get spelled out until the climax could potentially leave the audience confused. I think it is a safer bet to make it clear early on in the film that the throne is the source of Palpatine’s power to cheat death. Then, at the end of the film, you could decide how you want to clarify how Rey decides to destroy it. The voices of the Jedi tell her, internal monologue, something. Does Rey really need a connection to Palpatine beyond the power he offers? It’s not like Rey briefly being his adopted child is going to make the audience think that she actually might join him more than any other option.
I guess it does give you the angle of “Rey has been trained” if you want to try and address that question.
So, putting simply, her backstory would be this: Rey’s parents were followers of Palpatine. They gave up Rey to be trained as a Sith and eventually be Palpatine’s heir/apprentice, but they had a change of heart and ran away with her. They hid her, then got caught and killed. The trauma of Rey’s abandonment made her forget everything.
It could be interesting if Palpatine tried to manipulate her, and say that her parents took her away from having a better life than they did. Hmm.
Speaking of Rey killing her parents, didn’t Palpatine also kill his own parents in Legends?
EDIT: I will say the toughest thing about the Rey Palpatine/Nobody stuff is deciding on an angle and the dialogue. If some kind of consensus could be made on that, I don’t think it would be so hard to actually make the scenes with the dialogue. Just need some brainstorming to come up with something.
All good points!