KILLOFFPOE

yotsuya said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

Are you sure someone doesn’t have a voodoo doll of you? 😉

That was no skidding turn, that was real spacecraft physics. Babylon 5 had spacecraft turn on an axis to fire like that all the time.

Star Wars doesn’t have “real spacecraft physics”. Star Wars has always been “WWII in Space”. I’ve never seen a P-51 Mustang make a turn like that!

Is there some limit to how big a spaceship can be I’m not aware of? Snoke’s ship didn’t seem that much larger than Vader’s Star Destroyer. Perhaps Snoke was compensating for something…

The Death Star and the Executor are fine because they’re the culmination of the galaxy-ruling Empire’s power. Those ships are what infinite money and a firm grasp on all supply lines and independent contractors gets you. And they’re single ships. They have to construct a new Death Star when they want another.

But the rules of the Disney Trilogy are evidently “bigger ship every movie” despite whatever happened 18 hours ago in TFA. Starkiller was ridiculous. The First Order has infinite money. Infinite crew. Despite supposedly being a “fringe group” attempting to rise to power on the edge of the galaxy.

Remember that the visual dictionary says than Snoke’s Ship has a crew of TWO MILLION the next time a disney fan tries to convince you the First Order is “small” or resource constrained.

Pretty sure P-51’s defy physics in Lucas’ Red Tails movie. Spacecraft don’t make noise in a vacuum either. 😉

I don’t take much stock in what the visual dictionary says. Would you take what they imply about Snoke as gospel?

The two million passes the eye test too just based on how freaking overly huge that ship was.

And again, I don’t care about realistic physics at all. I just want the in-universe abilities to remain constant between movies. The X-Wing powerslide was the new Legolas skateboard.

What is obvious is that Snoke and the First Order are a continuation of the Empire. From the equipment they have and the developments they have made, it seem pretty clear that they have access to the designs of the Empire and the ability to manufacture equipment on the same scale.

Well yes, that is obvious by what transpires in the movie.

But Disney and Disney Apologists are very insistent that the First Order is just a small remnant in the Unknown Regions. Despite them nuking the entire New Republic. Despite building StarKiller base and now Snoke’s ship. Despite everything in the movie telling you that they’re just as big and bad as the Empire. Despite there being only about 12 Resistance members left in the entire galaxy. And about 6 lines of dialog between the two movies to try to explain/hoodwink all of the above.

The world-building in the Disney Trilogy is creatively bankrupt. It’s as big of a problem here as the bad acting/directing were a problem in the Prequels.

chyron8472 said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

So in almost every scene of the movie I had a knife twisting in my side about how bad this was and didn’t make sense. Makes it really hard to appreciate the good aspects.

If you were willing to let the films tell their own stories and expand your understanding of the universe as you acquire more information about it, you would be able to accept and enjoy it.

The sequel trilogy doesn’t have its own stories, world-building wise. TFA was literally and intentionally a soft reboot back to Star Wars 1977. Rebels vs. Empire.

There is no understanding of the universe I can gain because there is nothing, in either movies, that ties this universe to the one we know and love from pre-Disney Star Wars. Empire is strong again despite their defeat at Endor. A new Republic does not exist. “The Resistance” is nonsensical. Why would I care about any of this?

Any attempt at an explanation is a Jedi Mind Trick. Disney obviously wanted a simple Rebels vs. Empire story to wash away the perceived stink of the Prequels’ trade disputes, and wrote that without any regard to links from the OT. That’s not something I can take at face value and just automatically love.

SilverWook said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

Are you sure someone doesn’t have a voodoo doll of you? 😉

That was no skidding turn, that was real spacecraft physics. Babylon 5 had spacecraft turn on an axis to fire like that all the time.

Star Wars doesn’t have “real spacecraft physics”. Star Wars has always been “WWII in Space”. I’ve never seen a P-51 Mustang make a turn like that!

Is there some limit to how big a spaceship can be I’m not aware of? Snoke’s ship didn’t seem that much larger than Vader’s Star Destroyer. Perhaps Snoke was compensating for something…

The Death Star and the Executor are fine because they’re the culmination of the galaxy-ruling Empire’s power. Those ships are what infinite money and a firm grasp on all supply lines and independent contractors gets you. And they’re single ships. They have to construct a new Death Star when they want another.

But the rules of the Disney Trilogy are evidently “bigger ship every movie” despite whatever happened 18 hours ago in TFA. Starkiller was ridiculous. The First Order has infinite money. Infinite crew. Despite supposedly being a “fringe group” attempting to rise to power on the edge of the galaxy.

Remember that the visual dictionary says than Snoke’s Ship has a crew of TWO MILLION the next time a disney fan tries to convince you the First Order is “small” or resource constrained.

Pretty sure P-51’s defy physics in Lucas’ Red Tails movie. Spacecraft don’t make noise in a vacuum either. 😉

I don’t take much stock in what the visual dictionary says. Would you take what they imply about Snoke as gospel?

The two million passes the eye test too just based on how freaking overly huge that ship was.

And again, I don’t care about realistic physics at all. I just want the in-universe abilities to remain constant between movies. The X-Wing powerslide was the new Legolas skateboard.

“Fuel” or “repairs” is fine as a small throwaway-line plot guide. In both TPM and Empire it makes sense, a small ship on the run and being chased, finding a convenient port-of-call for supplies/repairs/whatever.

My issue in TLJ is that there are so many other ways the script could have been written so as to better-explain the slow-speed chase. I just really didn’t like the space chase as presented, and the fuel / hyperspace tracking read to me as obvious and blatant “because the plot requires it” explanations that the writers made up to get the characters in a certain situation.

I would have much preferred a convincing, cool, iconic, interesting, whatever set piece to get the characters into the same position. Make Snoke’s ship less gigantic, but able to stop lightspeed jumps. Put a spy on board. Show an engine being damaged in an attack. Have a single Star Destroyer chasing a single rebel ship, both unable to jump to lightspeed. Something interesting.

Anything like that would have been fine. The film instead explained the predicament via a few lines of bad exposition rather than give us any on-screen reason to believe this situation was occurring.

Must be the image I posted. I re-hosted mine on imgur, but it’ll need to be edited out of that quoted message as well.

Bombers leaving German Imperial airspace by “going to light speed”

SilverWook said:

Are you sure someone doesn’t have a voodoo doll of you? 😉

That was no skidding turn, that was real spacecraft physics. Babylon 5 had spacecraft turn on an axis to fire like that all the time.

Star Wars doesn’t have “real spacecraft physics”. Star Wars has always been “WWII in Space”. I’ve never seen a P-51 Mustang make a turn like that!

Is there some limit to how big a spaceship can be I’m not aware of? Snoke’s ship didn’t seem that much larger than Vader’s Star Destroyer. Perhaps Snoke was compensating for something…

The Death Star and the Executor are fine because they’re the culmination of the galaxy-ruling Empire’s power. Those ships are what infinite money and a firm grasp on all supply lines and independent contractors gets you. And they’re single ships. They have to construct a new Death Star when they want another.

But the rules of the Disney Trilogy are evidently “bigger ship every movie” despite whatever happened 18 hours ago in TFA. Starkiller was ridiculous. The First Order has infinite money. Infinite crew. Despite supposedly being a “fringe group” attempting to rise to power on the edge of the galaxy.

Remember that the visual dictionary says than Snoke’s Ship has a crew of TWO MILLION the next time a disney fan tries to convince you the First Order is “small” or resource constrained.

Zachary VIII said:

ziggyonice said:

It bugs me how many people want to strip all humor out of Star Wars.

Yes, The Last Jedi had some attempts at humor that went too far. But instead of completely taking out those lines, perhaps just trim them a little. For example, the infamous “your mom” joke that Poe makes was too much in my opinion, but I was okay with him joking for a moment saying that he was on hold for Hux. Cut it there.

I didn’t mind “big ass door” or Luke winking. I will say that I thought his brushing off the shoulder wasn’t really appropriate, but again — don’t take out all humor. Give us a good balance.

Personally I think the humor level in TFA was just right most of the time (except for “so who talks first”).

That line literally ruined my first viewing of TFA. Yuck. Broke my suspension of disbelief in an otherwise incredibly great scene.

I think I’ve come around more on that movie since, but Marvel Humor is the worst and TLJ is filled with it.

joefavs said:

The Cracked folks considered this a mark of effective movie-making rather than an egregious mistake, because audiences were swept up in the movie enough not to notice that flaw in the logic. That’s how I felt about all of these nitpicks about the in-universe rules of space travel in TLJ. I was engaged enough in the story that was in front of me that I was not giving any thought at all to whether or not it was 100% consistent with the last eight films (which, it’s worth noting, are not entirely consistent with each other either). I get that that’s not enough for everyone, but it’s enough for me.

Interesting, because I was the exact opposite. EVERYTHING was pulling me out of the movie. X-Wing skidding turns. Arcing shots from the cannons. The ridiculous size of the Snoke Ship. Finn/Rose just being able to lightspeed away for a casino adventure. “Fuel”. The hard-limit 18 hours of training. TIE Fighters needing “cover” from Star Destroyers.

Not to mention the really bad ones like the slow speed chase and hyperspace ramming.

So in almost every scene of the movie I had a knife twisting in my side about how bad this was and didn’t make sense. Makes it really hard to appreciate the good aspects.

The Scrip Shadow review states what I thought pretty well

I really wanted her and Kylo to make sweaty space love but alas, no happen.

http://scriptshadow.net/movie-review-the-last-jedi-and-maybe-the-last-star-wars-movie/

You don’t need to show Canto Bight, Rose, Laura Dern, Leia Poppins, the Code breaker, or Phasma if you cut the in-ship plot entirely.

DrDre said:

Sorry to keep banging on about this, but this really grinds my gears. Just to point out how poorly concieved TLJ is, and how it undermines the earlier films, here’s an image:

The size of the Supremacy is 60,000 meters. The size of the first Death Star is 160,000 meters. The Death Star is bigger, but not that much bigger. Why did the rebels have to steal the plans, and send a small group of rebel ships to destroy the Death Star? Why not just take multiple cruisers piloted by droids, and have them hyperspace through it, destroying the space station? That would have surely saved a lot of lifes.

---

-Edit-

DrDre, I accidentally added my comments to your post when I meant to quote. I’ve restored your post and quoted further down the page. That’s the reason it shows your post was edited. Sorry about that.
Anchorhead

I really hate that Disney movies do not have a SCALE for anything.

• The First Order is too big. Should have been a fringe organization, not the Empire again.
• The New Republic was too small / weird / never shown. And then we blew it up, and it seems to be completely gone.
• Starkiller Base was too big. Ridiculous. Ruins the Death Star.
• Snoke’s ship was insanely big. Ruins the entire space chase. If it was a single Star Destroyer chasing a single Rebel ship, that would have possibly a cool/thrilling/dramatic chase. U-Boat vibes! Callback to A New Hope!

Just have some normal sized ships, dudes. No need to outdo every previous movie.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Some things I really liked about the new trilogy:

1. Seeing the old gang back together again
2. Passing the torch to a new generation of heroes and fans
3. Restoring the OT aesthetic (the PT was ugly and fake) but still update to 21st century
4. Rey being a strong female lead
5. New adventures and storylines still keeping the spirit of the originals

TFA had some great moments and some what were they thinking moments? I thought it was a mixed bag, but there was still hope or wonder to see where the story went. Now it’s all trashed. I wonder if anyone can explain to me first, independent of Star Wars, how was this a good movie? The plot was nonsensical. There were so many contrived scenarios and subplots. They kept returning to the exact same shot of the First Order ship shooting at the shields of the fleeing Resistance ship over and over again. I counted at least 4 times they used the same shot! The characters didn’t develop at all. They spent a whole movie trying to find Luke…Rey goes there to get him and afterward Yoda is like “you didn’t need to find him, you already know everything”. Gee, great.

I mean the movie was just a bad movie, but then you take the spirit of Star Wars and Luke’s character and just pour acid all over them and throw them into a dumpster fire. Even Mark Hamill said he disagrees with everything! That should tell you something.

Oh well, have to remind myself it’s just a movie. These new ones can never change how I feel about the original three…

I think the rest of the plot/pacing being a bit of a mess caused people to miss the subtle Rashômon aspects of the scene being re-told. Make a more serious Jedi-only movie and you can explore that better, because the idea is great.

Of course it was one of the Falcon’s escape pods.

I’m wondering if the design of the escape pod was inspired by Jabba the Hutt’s “favorite decoration”. Which would be tempting for a movie in the same trilogy position as Empire.

Monolithic slab, Rey’s face and hand positions, etc.

Going to look for this in my next viewing.

Just had a thought about Rey’s Space Coffin. Was that styled to invoke Han in Carbonite?

incredibledisc said:

chyron8472 said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

I simply don’t understand how that NEED to make a strong OT-worthy Star Wars film has been lost, in the second freaking movie of the Trilogy.

This exactly. Damned if they did , damned if they didn’t.

Not damned at all if they make a competent, normal, non-prequel-y, Star Wars film in the style of The Force Awakens but without wholesale remaking of A New Hope.

chyron8472 said:

I think that, plain and simple, what many people wanted TLJ to have been was unattainable. I think no matter what LFL/Disney/RJ/JJ did people would complain. That doesn’t mean complaints aren’t valid. It means they’re damned if they do and they’re damned if they don’t.

Couldn’t disagree more strongly. The overall tone, pacing, characters, and setup from TFA were great. Keep doing that for 3 Star Wars movies and everyone loves them.

The things that suffered in TFA were the literal ANH soft-reboot items. Starkiller base, Empire vs. Resistance, Snoke. It would be very easy to not do this in the sequels. Hell, it would be easy to mostly edit them out of TFA.

No one would care – at all – that the Disney Trilogy copied some general “hero’s journey” structure from the OT. The issue was the aspects that remade ANH.

They wouldn’t be damned if they made a normal, competent Star Wars movie like TFA. Just don’t literally remake the same movie from the OT.

SilverWook said:

adywan said:

MalàStrana said:

KILLOFFPOE said:
Watching TFA again, some lines about Snoke sound ridiculous. Especially Leia talking about Snoke turning Ben.

We can still presume that Luke lied to Leia about that when he left everything behind ?

But Snoke did turn Ben. He had already seduced Ben before Luke’s moment of weakness.

Some people seem to forget that little detail. It’s not like Kylo decided to go evil after waking up to see Uncle Luke standing there. The Jedi Knight School was doomed either way.

I’d call TLJ a full-on retcon of the “turning” as established in TFA.

It’s a better story that way. Pity they gave Leia “but snoke turned our son” lines in TFA. They really stand out, now.

Imagine if Casino Planet Canto Bight had been in The Force Awakens.

People would have rioted. CGI freaking Jar Jar Horse. Tell-don’t-show voicover from bad character explaining why these people are evil. Bad actor slave kids. A chase sequence rivaling Crystal Skull and the Droid Factory.

Remember J.J. going to great lengths to show off his practical X-Wing and Millennium Falcon sets? Saying, “No, we’ve got this, we’re not making the Prequels again.”

I simply don’t understand how that NEED to make a strong OT-worthy Star Wars film has been lost, in the second freaking movie of the Trilogy.

Why are we subverting expectations in structure and pacing? We’ve had exactly one competent Star Wars film in thirty years! Try for two! Save the differently paced movies for the Saga films.

J.J. IX, you’re my only Hope…

Collipso said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

You might’ve written Hux instead of Snoke in a few places mate.

No, that’s the point. Write Snoke out rather than introduce him. Replace him with the Hux character where needed.

Snoke was obviously a mistake.

• Luke senses dark side in Kylo. Rashômon Saber scene from TLJ.
• Kylo blows up the temple.
• Kylo already pretty strong in the force. Thinks he can be his own teacher. Anakin vibes, wanting to be a Master.
• Starts teaching his own disciples, the Knights of Ren
• Can’t learn from Luke, so goes towards Vader instead.
• Joins up with small band of imperial remnant called the First Order, lead by Hux.
• Hux distrusting of Kylo for his “ancient religion” + family.
• Kylo more interested in Force related power/research than Empire building.
• Kylo kills Hux in the Throne room to seize command of the First Order. Unclear what he’ll do with it.
• Invites Rey to join him in researching the Force from a lightside/darkside perspective, not just being evil. Links up with what Luke has been telling Rey about ending the Jedi.

There. We’re back to beginning of TFA/TLJ with no Snoke at all.

Watching TFA again, some lines about Snoke sound ridiculous. Especially Leia talking about Snoke turning Ben.

Puppet Yoda looked great! His very first shot seemed far more CGI though and looked bad.

NeverarGreat said:

ForceGhostRecon said:

I’m pretty sure TFA and TLJ (very select parts of it) can be edited into one movie…

Frink would be remiss if he didn’t edit the lightsaber toss as the last shot of The Force Awakens.

lol, a 1 minute clip of this is going to get a billion views on youtube

The Rashômon plot of the Luke/Kylo Wake Up scene is the meat of the movie. I’d love it, if it was done in a competent film.

I need to rewatch this movie with Po/Derm/Leia/Finn/Rose completely cut.