Density

TV’s Frink said:

Density said:

SparkySywer said:

Yub Nub is atrocious. It’s bad for the same reasons Jedi Rocks is bad. The new song is much, much better.

Lol no

What happened to respecting everyone’s opinions? Laughing doesn’t seem very respectful.

I didn’t say you have to respect everyone’s opinions. I said you don’t have to be a sarcastic jackass about it. In the thread I said that to you, the guy you were responding to simply said that he liked ROTJ as much as the other movies and you responded in a sarcastic jackass manner, as you always do. He didn’t say anything to disparage you or your opinions. His opinion was expressed politely and it was a positive, not negative, opinion. He didn’t deserve your bullshit. This guy on the other hand went on the attack by saying something was “atrocious,” so if you ask me he opened himself up for my dismissal, which was still less dickish than yours.

Look, I know you think you’re some kind of comic genius or something, but you’re actually just another asshole on the internet. You’re maybe 1% as funny as you think you are. If you toned it down a notch and used your “wit” sparingly, instead of literally every post you make, that would be fine. Instead you feel the need to demonstrate how “clever” you are at all times, which gets extremely old extremely quickly. And I can only imagine how many people it has driven away from this site, because it confirms the impression that it’s dominated by the Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons.

SparkySywer said:

Yub Nub is atrocious. It’s bad for the same reasons Jedi Rocks is bad. The new song is much, much better.

Lol no

adywan said:

Spuffure said:

crissrudd4554 said:

In answer to the topic, this is mostly my purist side talking but older Anakin plus it looks less awkward when put next to the ghosts of Yoda and Obi-Wan.

I watched the prequels first, so I would think there was some random guy as a ghost. See my point? P.S, victory celebration is so much better than yup nub. (Stupid spelling corrections!)

Even when you see the guy unmasked moments before you would think he was some random guy? No one had any problems knowing who he was for 21 years before lucas decided to screw with things. Has the human race become so dumb that they couldn’t still figure that one out?

I’m 101% sure the guy you’re responding to is a troll, but regardless, your point is correct. The whole point was not to make it easier to understand, because no one had any trouble understanding it in the first place, but rather to inseparably tie the OT to the PT so that one could not be understood without the other. The change actually makes the scene more confusing to anyone who has not seen the prequels, and that was precisely the point. George wanted anyone who watched just the OT to be scratching their heads at the end so they would have to go back and watch the prequels. His goal was to make his preferred chronological order, which of course includes the prequels, the only coherent way to watch the films. He wanted to make the prequels an inescapable part of the saga no matter how much you resist. Having seen the prequels doesn’t make you not realize who Sebastian Shaw is because you saw him minutes earlier in the same film, but not having seen the prequels does make you not realize who Hayden Christensen is because you’ve never seen him.

And, for that matter, neither has Luke. Which is the fundamental problem with the scene that completely undermines the logic behind any excuse you could possibly think up for it. So apparently Obi-Wan and Yoda have to still be old as force ghosts, but Anakin doesn’t have to? But no, you say, they actually can appear however they want but they choose to appear the way Luke would recognize them. So why then does Anakin look like a guy who’s younger than Luke who he has never seen before and there is no way he would recognize as his father? Same problem if you want to say the scene is just Luke imagining them, because there is no way he could imagine Hayden having never seen him.

So you say then OK, well maybe they don’t get to choose and they aren’t doing it for Luke, and he’s not just imagining them, but the real reason they look that way is because they look the age they were the last time they were on the light side of the force, so Anakin really “died” when he became Vader like Obi-Wan said. To which I say that undermines the entire point of Vader being redeemed and coming back to the light side at the end, completely destroying the symbolic theme of the film. You know, the “return of the Jedi.” If he’s not a Jedi again at the end, that did not happen.

So finally you just give up and say well it was the force. The force allowed Anakin to look young again just because, and also told Luke who he was so he could recognize him. Which brings me back to the original point: Why would it not do the same for Obi-Wan and Yoda then? If Luke could recognize them through the force in their younger forms anyway, why are they still stuck being old guys, or why would they choose to be?

It. Doesn’t. Make. Any. Sense. Only way the scene completely works is the original way, with all three ghosts as Luke saw them, all three the age they were when they physically died, and all three the age they were when they became one with the light side of the force. And if you’re going to change it then you have to change Obi-Wan and Yoda too if you want it to make any sense at all. Changing Anakin alone as Lucas did is an absolute nightmare for in-universe logical consistency.

I’ll take either of the ones with Ian McDiarmid over the original. This is the one thing in the entire trilogy I think was in genuine need of a change. Not so much that the original should be buried, but enough that it should have been done. It could have been executed better in the official version, but I’ll still take that over what we had. It’s still more consistent because at least it’s the same actor. The original voice actor was awful and the hologram–setting aside it’s a hybrid of an old woman and a chimpanzee–looked absolutely nothing like the Emperor in ROTJ, even less like him than ROTS McDiarmid does. I can’t shake the feeling that those who argue that the original is genuinely better in this case are being disingenuous and arguing purely from a place of nostalgia alone. Is it not enough to say that you think the unaltered originals should be released, while still conceding that they were not perfect and that not all changes made to them are intrinsically bad? I mean, be honest: If McDiarmid was there from the start, and then for some reason in the SE George changed it to an old woman/chimpanzee hybrid, would you still say it was better? Of course not. So are you really saying you think it’s better in its own right, or are you just saying it’s better because it’s the original? There is a distinction, and there’s nothing wrong with the latter. But let’s be honest here.

Oooh I 'member TFA!

Yeah fuck people who have different opinions and life experiences from Frink. They all deserve his sarcastic verbal abuse.

I just can’t understand the mentality behind making that kind of change. George really thought it was worth changing a wipe to a cut for the DVD, and then changed it back for the Blu-ray. What the actual fuck? Did he honestly think that there is anyone, anywhere on the face of the entire planet who would care about this? Did he really think it added to or took away anything from the film at all? True insanity. I honestly believe he has a legitimate obsessive-compulsive disorder or something, there is no other explanation.

TBH I’d be much more surprised to learn coked-up-party-girl Carrie Fisher and biggest-movie-star-in-the-world Harrison Ford did not hook up at some point in the 80s than I would be to learn they did. Especially considering how much time they spent together. And not just on-set either. It’s a known fact that they used to attend parties together. In fact Carrie said once that she remembered being hungover filming a scene from Empire because she and Ford had been out all night partying with The Rolling Stones the night before. Yeah I’d be pretty shocked if nothing ever happened between them. They probably were never in a serious relationship or anything, but I would bet money that they at least got to third base.

Yes, there are rips. And I actually own the CD set myself. Don’t think it was ever released on vinyl though.

The problem is the version of Yub Nub on the soundtrack is the terrible version with overdubs of annoying Ewoks. The version actually used in the film is far superior, but can only be found on the old pre-SE Anthology CD set from th early 90s.

DuracellEnergizer said:

The Leigh Brackett draft of TESB didn’t have Vader as Luke’s father. That’s a strong enough indicator to me that Lucas hadn’t thought the idea up yet.

Lucas may have already thought of the idea but didn’t tell her or wasn’t certain he wanted to go through with it yet.

The fact is that we’ll never know for certain exactly when Lucas came up with the idea. There is a lot of conflicting information about how much of the story was planned from the start and how much was improvised.

joefavs said:

Harmy said:

joefavs said:

As long as we get the OUT, I’m fine with and even curious about potential new iterations of the SE.

Same here. It’s important to point out though, that even though the '97SE didn’t come out on DVD, it did get a wide theatrical release and my generation did grow up with it on VHS, so there is definitely some nostalgia for it and nostalgia is very much the wave Disney is surfing right now.

Oh definitely, my earliest actual memory of Star Wars was the theatrical release of the SE when I was seven years old (though I know I watched the Faces tapes a year or two before), and I wore out that set of SE tapes. I just meant that there’s got to be significantly fewer folks who are very interested in that version because it was the standard version for such a relatively short amount of time.

Actually, assuming they release it next year, 97 SE and 04 SE will both have been the standard for 7 years, 11 SE the standard for 6 years. That’s a lot of kids who formed their first memories of Star Wars with each version. You said it yourself, your first Star Wars memory is going to the theatrical release and that alone was huge, let alone the popularity of the VHS tapes for 7 years after that. I’m not sure how much nostalgia there actually is for it yet, let alone the 04 version (which as you point out wasn’t all that changed in 2011 anyway), but Lucasfilm owes it to the fans not to bury their childhood memories. They never should have tweaked the movies in the first place, but since they did, it’s only right that they make all iterations available because they each no doubt have nostalgic ties to thousands if not millions of fans.

For me, I’ll be more than satisfied with the OUT alone because that is the version I wore out the VHS tapes of (not even the Faces, the older tapes with the original audio mix and everything, save that 3PO line which the movie feels incomplete without). Never mind it’s also the superior version hands down anyway. But, it would be selfish of me to not hope they give each SE version the proper treatment as well, especially since it’s not like it would be difficult to do. The 04 version is arguably unnecessary, but I think the fact that 97 was a theatrical release, and is possibly the version of the negatives, justifies it. I’ll probably never watch it, save maybe once as a curiosity, considering it holds no nostalgic value for me and doesn’t even have any of the changes I actually like such as the Emperor hologram. But I’m aware that’s not the case for everyone. Everyone should be able to have their own 'member berries, not just us OUT fans.

I’m certain we’ll get something for the 40th anniversary. They won’t let such an occasion go unacknowledged. And with all the 4K UHD discs coming out lately, they’ll have to put that out eventually too so it’s perfect timing. I would bet money that the OUT will be released, simply because they know damn well the fans will not be pleased if they try to put out just the SE yet again without George even involved. And because sites like this are cutting into Disney’s profits; yes, I know it’s a niche site and yes, I know we’re supposed to own the Blu-ray, but major publications have written about it and there’s no doubt plenty of people who download Despecialized without paying Disney a cent. They’ll want to rectify that just like the GOUT put a stop to laserdisc bootlegs.

Unfortunately we’re probably stuck with the SE forever though, even if it comes with the OUT, simply because the SE will have been the standard in one form or another for literally exactly as long as the original was. That means a generation or two grew up on it. For their sake, it would be nice if they also restored the 97 SE. Which might be easier; if it is true that the negatives are the 97 SE, it should be no problem whatsoever to throw that initial scan on as a bonus even if they alter it to the 2011 version for the standard release.

My ideal would be for them to hybrid it all together with branching: Scan the 97 negative and use it as the base, “despecialize” it for the OUT and “respecialize” it for the 2011 SE. Then stick it all on one disc and allow viewers to seamlessly select which version to watch, using the same footage for everything except for where scenes differ. This assumes of course that they get the colors and everything down perfectly for all versions, which would be pretty sweet. And since both the colors and audio of the 97 SE are unanimously praised around here, I don’t think people could complain too much if it was used as the base everything else was built around.

Honestly since I can’t notice it and there seems to be a dispute as to the nature or even existence of it, I’m not gonna worry about it. Any changes I make might just mess it up more so I’ll leave it as it is. If there is a problem I’m sure it will be corrected in 2.5.

SilverWook said:

I tracked down several vintage HBO recordings in the past decade. It was a fold down of the stereo mix.

Do you know what the source of the mono mix in Despecialized is then? I thought I recalled someone saying it was captured from OTA broadcasts, and I know I’ve read that the reason George considered the mono mix “final” is because that was the version intended to be played on TV, as well as in most theaters.

The complete film was available on Super 8 in the UK and Europe in stereo.

That’s very interesting, I did not know that. I thought all official/commercial 8mm releases were just snippets of the film, silent and black & white. Do you happen to have a source on this? Not that I don’t believe you, I’d just like to read more about it.

MalàStrana said:

I fail to see why the ending of a Roland Emmerich movie would be a Steven Spielberg contribution to ROTJ SE. The only Spielberg contribution I know to the SW saga is one or two ideas during the Yoda v Sidious fight. What are the others ?

Well I believe Spielberg said that he watched a rough cut of the original SW with a group of George’s other filmmaker friends, and he was the only one who liked it. So I’m pretty sure he’s been giving George encouragement for a long time. Not sure about specific contributions, but I find it hard to imagine he’s never tossed out ideas while talking to George or that George wouldn’t take them into consideration.

You’ve pretty much got it as far as I know. Although I think the mono mix was on some 35mm prints, not just 16mm, and was also released in 1977, shortly after the film premiered on 70mm, to theaters that weren’t set up for stereo or surround. I believe the mono mix was also used for airings of the film on TV/HBO. And yes, the 1985 home video version was identical visually to the 1981 prints (and was also released as a widescreen laserdisc and later VHS, so not just pan & scan), and the audio was almost identical to the 1977 stereo mix with the exception of the 3PO line that was added in from the mono mix. I’m not sure about those different composites and credits you’re talking about, never heard about that. Someone else will have to chime in.

And yes there were a few 8mm home releases, but they were not the complete film. Just selected scenes.

As for sources for the pre-1985 versions, well it’s mostly film reels. The 1981 version was released on a few VHS tapes and laserdiscs (I think all fullscreen) with the original audio during the brief period after its release but before the new mix was put out in 1985. And since the 1985 and 1993 releases were the same except for the audio, this was the version seen on all home releases until the SE. But Star Wars exactly as it existed in 1977, with both the original crawl and audio mix, has never been seen on home video in any form or quality, sadly enough. The GOUT DVD that had the original crawl had the 1993 mix and the early VHS/LD releases with the 77 mix still had the ANH crawl.

So that just leaves film reels as the only pure sources for the original theatrical version. If you want to see it today, though, you can of course get the SSE (most authentic) or Despecialized (best quality) if you haven’t already. That’s clearly your best bet, sure beats hunting down old laserdidscs and VHS tapes, but you probably know that if you’re on this site.

towne32 said:

Somewhere early. It’s only off by a frame, so it makes sense that you would have not noticed it. It can be remuxed with a sync offset to fix.

Any instructions on how to do so? I mean obviously it’s so small that I never noticed it before and probably never could, but simply knowing it’s there now is going to bother my mildly OCD brain regardless.

towne32 said:

That’s approximately the size of Harmy’s original file. Does the checksum match? I know people have remuxed his ESB 2.0 to fix the fact that it was a frame or so off sync, so that’s another reason the checksum might not match…

ESB DE is off sync?? I’ve never noticed. Where is the error?

jedimasterobiwan said:

Dek Rollins said:

Dreamaster said:

NO Dr. Dre… please for the love of God go back to this one!

DrDre said:

Here’s the complete set of warmer regrades:

…

THIS!

DrDre, the video sample you posted is not nearly as good looking as those previous screenshots. The “final grading” feels way too orange/pink overall, and removes the slight mint-green feel that I think is almost essential.

Ha ha you all think your really cute. You must think your really Superior huh. Here i am just asking a simple question and all you do is criticize me. your horrible star wars fans treating other fans like that what did i ever do to you guys sorry for living sheesh jerks.

…

No one criticized you at all. Go take your pills.

Ronster said:

Yes but now the Landscape is different.

Lucusfilm are not trying to push their digital graphics technologies. They if anything are investing in alternate tech like AR and VR tech. Their business really has nothing to do with a film made in 1977 anymore. It’s Evolved way beyond 1977.

It’s time to show some more humble roots.

The Special Edition is just another Brick in wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U

“The ideas of conformity in revolution inherent in the song are exemplified to a large extent in the accompanying film footage. Although the children in the second verse sing lyrics of personal rebellion, their unified singing coupled with their symmetrical seating in the film are as eeriely structured as when they march down the hall in lockstep rhythm. Despite their rebellious intentions, they have become just as homogeneous as when they were school clones. Furthermore, like the dual nature of the hammers, what begins as a productive revolution (the regaining of individuality) turns into destructive violence as the children destroy their school and create a funeral pyre for their teacher with the instruments of their past educational repression.”

Dude I love Pink Floyd too but it’s really not relevant here.

ATMachine said:

Density said:

You won’t be seeing a restoration on Star Wars from 1977 being sold on it’s own.

I think it’s very possible that you will. Probably not as the only option, but I will be surprised (and annoyed) if they don’t release the movies as barebones single discs for the people who just want the OUT.

LFL already did that. It’s called the GOUT.

Now whether they can do it from proper film materials rather than simply transferring a laserdisc to DVD is another question.

I know they did. Not immediately, first they released only the SEs as a set before eventually releasing them individually to make more money after they milked that. That was my point.

Ronster said:

Density said:

You won’t be seeing a restoration on Star Wars from 1977 being sold on it’s own.

I think it’s very possible that you will. Probably not as the only option, but I will be surprised (and annoyed) if they don’t release the movies as barebones single discs for the people who just want the OUT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ

This Video will make you understand.

Apparently you did not read the rest of my post, in which I clearly explained how doing so (not immediately, but eventually) would ultimately make them more money.

You won’t be seeing a restoration on Star Wars from 1977 being sold on it’s own.

I think it’s very possible that you will. Probably not as the only option, but I will be surprised (and annoyed) if they don’t release the movies as barebones single discs for the people who just want the OUT. They may not do this at first, wanting to squeeze out as much cash as possible by exclusively releasing some kind of “collector’s set” that includes one or more SE versions in addition to the OUT. But that will annoy diehards enough that after they maximize their profits they’ll eventually release the OUT by itself for the holdouts who didn’t cave and for more casual fans who just want to see the movies they 'member from their youth without spending too much. That ultimately gives them more money than they would get just from releasing one or the other, or both at the same time.

And I can tell you with confidence that one thing you are NOT going to see is any kind of official new Special Edition. Disney is deliberately playing to nostalgia with Star Wars. TFA should be all of the proof of that you need. George is the only one who ever cared about tweaking these movies and now he’s out of the picture.

HelloFidelio said:

I genuinely think Return of The Jedi is one of the worst in the series, because it has such a great opening sequence that could be a short film on its own but then completely falls apart in the following acts.

Nooooo. I get not liking the Ewoks, but the Emperor’s Throne Room stuff? Hell no, that’s the best stuff in the whole series. The space battle is awesome too. Yeah yeah “it’s another Death Star!” but the battle itself is still totally different from the battle in SW. And it makes sense that the Emperor would want to re-build the Death Star anyway; his whole plans aren’t going to change just because the Rebels blew the first one up. Basically, everything in Jedi outside of Endor is great. And I don’t hate the Endor stuff like some do.