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Collipso

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25-Oct-2017
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Post
#1145469
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

NFBisms said:

Wexter said:

You could tell the story of the events after ROTJ and make it stand on its own. You could even improve upon the originals (a difficult task, but not an impossible one). This movie did introduce some new and potentially interesting themes: out with the old and in with the new, the Force is out there for everybody and not just the gifted, animal cruelty is bad. But goddammit make up your own story to convey those themes.

I think this is the point though. It’s one of the main themes of the movie, expectation of legend vs our own humanity. The expectation that Luke is the infallible hero and legend who will step up to fight the First Order, Poe’s assumption that being simply brave and courageous alone is heroic, the expectation that Ben can still turn back to the light, that Finn and Rose’s adventure will make a difference on good intentions alone, or that Rey is a somebody…

I think parroting sequences to subvert them is how Johnson is presenting that theme that the legends and stories we (or the characters in this movie) try to live up to aren’t plausible. TLJ more than other SW movies tries to speak to our humanity and fallibility. Ben won’t turn back to the light side, Poe isn’t really a hero, Rey is a nobody, and Luke at his core is just a man. It turns around to paint the OT as an idealistic fairy tale, and that’s what’s so different about it thematically.

I think that theme becomes muddled if you don’t have the familiar story beats set up to subvert later. Otherwise you rely on even more obvious telegraphing or expositing of the theme like some lesson at the end of a school special. Rose discovering her “Resistance hero” attempting to escape at the beginning would be an example.

Not with Rey though. Her only flaw is being a nobody and that’s not a flaw at all. Maybe you could make a case for her being an idealist but she’s never even punished or suffers for any of her choices, and that’s not necessarily a flaw either. Her character is still almost the same character she was at the beginning of TFA, except that now she’s a lot more powerful, without any real explanation as to how. One of the few differences between TLJ Rey and TFA Rey is that she cares about the cause and about 2 or 3 people, but that’s it. I just can’t see Rey as a compelling character.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1145452
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

The throne room sequence is an example of this. It uses words allready used by the OT, but changes the order to the point, that it’s like a joke, where we get the punchline without a proper setup.

I don’t follow. are you complaining about the fight, or the interrogation of Rey and death of snoke, or what?

There’s no way you didn’t get a complete déjà vu when Rey and Kylo were in the elevator reciting the same lines Luke and Vader did some 34 years ago.

Edit: I love how you took a carbon copied scene and just pointed out how slightly different it was, and claimed that it was extremely original. “Oh but Snoke interrogated Rey, the Emperor never did that to Luke” oh boy you’re right how could I be so stupid Rian Johnson must be a creative genius!!

This post has been edited.

Post
#1145420
Topic
The Last Jedi : Fan Edit Ideas - ** <strong>SPOILERS INSIDE</strong> **
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

HerekittykittyX said:

Just one change to the Luke projection sequence make Luke’s lightsaber green instead of blue throw the audience off

You’d need to change the hilt to the ROTJ one too, then. I’m actually not against the idea if it can be done, but the hilt definitely needs to change if the blade color is changed.

The legend of Luke Skywalker, as he wanted to appear, used the blue lightsaber. The green one was only known by his Jedi apprentices, Kylo, Vader, Ben, Yoda and the Emperor.
At least that’s how I interpreted it. To that specific moment, the blue lightsaber had more weight.

Post
#1145316
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

No. TLJ has plot twists galore. The main thing about the film is you think you know what’s going to happen but then it doesn’t. And that’s why it’s great.

You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.

You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.

You think Leia is dead but she’s not.

You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.

You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker.

You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.

You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.

You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.

You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

 

It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.

Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that, so there is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia). As has been pointed out, many fans are now trying to speculate who “broom boy” at the end’s parents might be, when the point was that the Light Side would still continue with or without the Jedi Order, and in people whom you don’t expect.

That’s not plot twist galore, that’s a variation.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/plot_twist

plot twist
noun

An unexpected development in a book, film, television program, etc.

 

You can’t possibly tell me with a straight face that you expected Snoke to die when he did. Now that he died in the second film, that makes him no longer akin to the Emperor, since now there is a whole third of the trilogy without him. Palpatine was an integral part of the third act of Return of the Jedi. But Snoke is dead. Snoke is now no longer a part of the story going forward. And that’s a twist because everyone expected him to play the part of the Emperor from start to finish.

I actually wouldn’t be surprised if we got the third act from The Empire Strikes Back in Episode IX with some sort of variation.

Still though, Vader did kill the Emperor, like Kylo killed Snoke. The circumstances were so different that it’s barley comparable, but similar in its own way nevertheless.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1145311
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

dahmage said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

amazing, every single word you just said is wrong

Cute, but nah.

chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.

No. TLJ has plot twists galore. The main thing about the film is you think you know what’s going to happen but then it doesn’t. And that’s why it’s great.

You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.

You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.

You think Leia is dead but she’s not.

You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.

You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker after you forgot he was even there.

You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.

You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.

You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.

You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.

 

It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.

Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that, so there is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia). As has been pointed out, many fans are now trying to speculate who “broom boy” at the end’s parents might be, when the point was that the Light Side would still continue with or without the Jedi Order, and in people whom you don’t expect.

I see this as the movie trolling us: it makes you go “oh man they’re literally remaking the OT beat by beat” and then BAM Kylo kills Snoke and we enter the what if reality where Vader, or in this case, Kylo kills the Emperor, or in this case Snoke.
To me it looks like they retold the OT in 1.5 movie and now we’re getting the new stuff. IX Will theoretically be super different but what’s JJ going to do? Kylo kills Rey and Kylo wins? What are the odds? And they’re not turning him into a good guy because Lucas did that in 1983 and it would be seen as a ripoff.
It looks like JJ has no way out - they’ll have to put a Battle of Endor lookalike to destroy the bad guys and make Rey go up vs. Kylo and kill him.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1145299
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

chyron8472 said:

Wexter said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

pleasehello said:

Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:

Not sure if serious.

My reaction to captainsolo’s review.

Actually, it was very well put.

I think people have this notion of what Star Wars is supposed to be, and whatever that notion is, it’s fairly well boxed into a space that is unattainable for new content. Like it has been said: TFA played it safe and people hated it. R1 took a tangent with new characters and people hated it. TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.

It’s like so many other long-standing franchises that have a cult following. You just can’t win for losing while trying to be the slightest bit creative.

Well, Star Wars is so big right now that no matter what they do someone will always hate it. The only ones that are “immune” to criticism are The Empire Strikes Back and Star Wars because not only are well put together movies they also don’t contradict anything that came before or didn’t do anything that would insult fans as of 2017.

Post
#1145175
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Then there’s the fact that this entire arc aims to push Rey to the foreground as the next last Jedi, Luke 2.0, new and improved. However, does she deserve this mantle? Luke goes through hell and back before becoming a Jedi, making mistakes, suffering loss of life and limbs. Rey get’s her powers handed to her, and seemingly is never tempted. She’s almost a perfect heroine. The secret of her parents are supposed to be a representation of her personal demons, but it’s ultimately inconsequential. She cries about it, and the next scene she’s back being the hero. When Luke discovered the secret about his father, there was anguish and reflection, setting up the redemption arc of the next film.

Sorry to jump back a couple of pages, but if you remember Empire, Luke had this huge immediate reaction. The rest of his reaction had nothing to do with who his father is, but that Ben didn’t tell him. His litany is “Ben, why didn’t you tell me.” Before we ever see him really deal with it, he is back to his old self by the end of the movie and back to being a hero in the opening act of Jedi. Yes, he asks Yoda to confirm it, but Luke instantly accepted who his father was and carried on. So I’m failing to see how Rey crying about it and back to being a hero in the next scene is much different.

For one ROTJ takes place about a year after TESB, so it’s a difference between several minutes and a year. Secondly, the Luke we meet in ROTJ is not exactly the same character. He’s more mature, and serious, perhaps even a little darker (applying a Force choke early on). Either way, his discovery of his father’s identity leads directly into him questioning his masters and the Vader redemption arc. Rey’s discovery as depicted really can’t go anywhere, and she’s already forgotten about it minutes later in the same film, and thus totally inconsequential. So, it’s definitely not the same situation.

Yeah, she essentially overcame her greatest struggle (barely even a struggle because of the way it was portrayed) within minutes and that hardly even matters or affects her now.

Post
#1145155
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DrDre said:

I think it’s fair to ask the question, why the ST is following this trajectory? Is it really trying to tell it’s own story, or is it just trying to redo the OT in some form, but pretending that it isn’t by avoiding the same twists. A lot of the twists and turns, while different from the OT, seem to derive from taking an OT story thread, and doing the opposite. It follows the what if scenario:

What if Vader couldn’t be redeemed?

What if Vader overthrew the Emperor?

What if Yoda refused to train Luke?

Many of the beats of the story of TLJ are very similar to TESB with the ROTJ throne room sequence thrown into the mix. Bad guys attack good guy base. Bad guys chase good guys (albeit a lot slower). Young hero goes to backwater planet to be trained by Jedi Master. Young hero defies her teacher, by going after the bad guy. Rogue betrays good guys. Bad guy fails to turn the hero to the dark side. Heroes end up in a tight spot.

Of course by taking the what if scenario, the ST is abandoning several of the underlying themes of the OT that drive the OT’s twists. Which begs the question, is Star Wars more defined by it’s themes, or by it’s story beats? My view is, that it is the former, and a new Star Wars trilogy that is based on the same themes, but has different story beats is better than a Star Wars trilogy, that is based on different themes, but largely follows the same story beats.

I agree, but inevitably Disney would be aiming towards what’s going to sell more, and I don’t blame them. Original Star Wars Trilogy aesthetics and story beats with some new faces and stuff is going to sell like crazy! So they made a good and beautiful movie, that really looked and sounded a lot like Star Wars. If it was actually Star Wars is up to you.

Post
#1145136
Topic
The SW Saga: Ender's Cut
Time

Anakin Starkiller said:

I believe the quote is “Rpeublic credits will do fine.” “No, they won’t.”

Anyways, what particular changes are you talking about?

He actually says what our porg friend quoted when he and Qui-Gon are talking about the race for the first time.

Post
#1144942
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

My only problem with TLJ Luke is that I don’t like how they killed him off. I acknowledge your point darthrush, but I guess I just don’t really like the way this particular aspect was handled. It still felt like Luke accomplishing everything he could in TLJ, failed to accomplish the one task he had. He did fail, and he did overcome it and gave hope to the galaxy and to the Resistance, but something feels off. In a way he’s still a failure I think. It just feels like such a small victory to me compared to all the defeats etc.

But I must say that I loved his arc in the movie, and I loved the outcome except for his death.

I honestly think he had more of an arc than any of the protagonists.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1144931
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

TavorX said:

darthrush said:

TavorX said:

darthrush said:

TavorX said:

He did more than walk away from the old Jedi Order. He walked away completely from everything and everyone.

Because he is a flawed character who thought he was too dangerous to do any good. It’s kinda the necessary foundation for his character arc.

I’m almost willing to forgive the Luke tempted to kill Kylo flashback stuff, but what will still remain a head-scratcher to me is buying the idea that post Jedi Academy-Luke doing absolutely nothing, NOTHING, to use his time on the island to figure out a way to redeem Kylo or help in any capacity, especially when he hides little clues like a piece of the map of his location in R2D2. I feel like an ashamed Luke will guilt him into action; not “leave me to die” Luke.

He wanted to die because he felt like he failed in his ultimate purpose in life and what Yoda wanted of him. He lost faith in himself. And if the arc is about Luke learning to believe in himself again (which is a great arc) then he needs to lose faith in himself at one point and feel that he is better off staying away from everything. His speech about “Luke Skywalker, a legend” says this perfectly.

I’m struggling so much here because on paper, it sounds GREAT. But again, I can’t ignore little clues like leaving behind that map puzzle piece in R2D2 for someone to stumble upon it, like Rey, when the time was “right”. Leaving those clues sounds like TFA was setting up the Luke I was thinking of, the one that didn’t give up completely during isolation. If there was no clues left behind, then I would digest this easier, because on paper, I believe you’re right, if Luke felt he let down Yoda in rebuilding a new Jedi Order, then yeah, I guess he would give up everything. What’s your take on the map piece? How does it still work in the frame-work of TLJ?

From my understanding, the map was essentially to the first Jedi temple, where it was known by few that is the place where Luke was. Not a map left behind by Luke for others to follow.

Post
#1144925
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

It’s weird because I ahead always thought that Luke would be the unconventional Jedi that would walk away from the dogmatic Jedi Order from the past. Guess I was wrong, and he followed the Jedi just like those who came before him, and Rey is now what Luke was.

Except that Luke does the opposite when we reach the end of his arc. He accepts that the old way has come time to go away with the scene with Yoda, and he reaffirms what the Jedi are about when he saves the Resistance and his friends. It’s also the greatest act of epic pacifism that we have seen in all of Star Wars.

So he basically did the exact same thing he did in the end of RotJ in a more badass way?

EDIT: TLDR - Rotj is Luke learning to believe in others despite their flaws. TLJ is Luke learning to believe in himself despite his mistakes.

I actually quite like this, though I’m not sure if I buy it.

I thought TLJ sold it great. They reference his act of compassion in RotJ and how it brought him to legendary status and how this led to Luke’s downfall. TLJ shows that Luke wasn’t yet fully realized as a hero, and that he still was grappling with how his actions in RotJ changed how others and he saw himself.

Yeah, I guess the thing is I don’t like how he died and ultimately failed his goal. He simply learned his lesson and passed the torch on to Rey. Had they let him live and lead the new real Jedi/Force User group, I think it would’ve been perfect. The way it was executed leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth, because so far in the ST they have just gotten the arcs from the OT and thrown them into a trash can. At least Luke’s. They kind of redeemed Han, but Leia apparently lost every battle she has ever fought and is inevitably going to die.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1144920
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

It’s weird because I ahead always thought that Luke would be the unconventional Jedi that would walk away from the dogmatic Jedi Order from the past. Guess I was wrong, and he followed the Jedi just like those who came before him, and Rey is now what Luke was.

Except that Luke does the opposite when we reach the end of his arc. He accepts that the old way has come time to go away with the scene with Yoda, and he reaffirms what the Jedi are about when he saves the Resistance and his friends. It’s also the greatest act of epic pacifism that we have seen in all of Star Wars.

So he basically did the exact same thing he did in the end of RotJ in a more badass way?

EDIT: TLDR - Rotj is Luke learning to believe in others despite their flaws. TLJ is Luke learning to believe in himself despite his mistakes.

I actually quite like this, though I’m not sure if I buy it.

Post
#1144907
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

darthrush said:

Collipso said:

It’s weird because I ahead always thought that Luke would be the unconventional Jedi that would walk away from the dogmatic Jedi Order from the past. Guess I was wrong, and he followed the Jedi just like those who came before him, and Rey is now what Luke was.

Except that Luke does the opposite when we reach the end of his arc. He accepts that the old way has come time to go away with the scene with Yoda, and he reaffirms what the Jedi are about when he saves the Resistance and his friends. It’s also the greatest act of epic pacifism that we have seen in all of Star Wars.

So he basically did the exact same thing he did in the end of RotJ in a more badass way?
Edit: I feel like I have to point out that the scene you’re referring to is my favorite scene of all time.

This post has been edited.

Post
#1144902
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

It’s weird because I ahead always thought that Luke would be the unconventional Jedi that would walk away from the dogmatic Jedi Order from the past. Guess I was wrong, and he followed the Jedi just like those who came before him, and Rey is now what Luke was.

Post
#1144882
Topic
Ranking the Star Wars films
Time

LuckyGungan2001 said:

joefavs said:

I’d be curious to find out when was the last time everyone here who ranks ROTS in the top half actually saw the film. I’m not being facetious, I seriously want to know if it’s something you guys watch regularly or if you haven’t reexamined it in a while.

I rank it fourth, not including The Last Jedi, which I’m waiting to see again in order to confirm the ranking. I watched Revenge of the Sith a couple of days ago when watching all the films before seeing TLJ. It’s still really good.

Yeah I basically share this opinion.

Post
#1144756
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Killoffpoe has a point, but it’s more against TFA than TLJ. TLJ was the best movie possible from the setup TFA gave us. I also didn’t like how we simply went back to the point where we were at the beginning of Star Wars without any real explanation.
I think Episode VII should’ve been the story told in the flashbacks + the New Republic being set up + the First Order rising silently
TFA should’ve been Episode VIII
TLJ Episode IX

Because, as a lot of people said, it really works just fine as a finale.

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