cap

For me, the PT has aged way better than I expected it to. When I first saw it, the story of how the Republic became the Empire didn’t really work for me. Now that I have the “It could happen here” sense, it’s more compelling.

Channel72 said:
And then we have ESB where Luke’s attachment to his friends results in a disaster.

He flies off to Bespin, loses an easily replaceable hand, and learns a painful secret. Seems a bit excessive to call it a “disaster.”

Superweapon VII said:
I prefer making Beru Anakin’s sister and Owen his brother-in-law, but okay.

In ANH, Owen is clearly the authority over Luke’s life. When Beru has an opinion, she waits until Luke is out of earshot, expresses her opinion privately to Owen, and defers to his authority. If it’s Beru rather than Owen who is the adult relative of Luke, that seems kind of sexist.

Fall 2022

So this is going to be airing at the same time as Andor?

I like the Star Trek model, where they stagger the shows so there’s new content every week of the year.

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Wouldn’t he have had to transfer into the clone when the Death Star blew up anyway? Anakin just made it happen a few minutes sooner.

Insert the common “battle meditation” headcanon that roughly states that Palpatine’s death enabled the Rebels to start overwhelming the DSII/Death Squadron and get far enough into the station to blow it up. It’s kind of stupid, but it sorta works.

There’s nothing on screen that suggests that.

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Wouldn’t he have had to transfer into the clone when the Death Star blew up anyway? Anakin just made it happen a few minutes sooner.

act on instinct said:

SparkySywer said:

act on instinct said:

There’s enough evidence for me that it was intentional, Lucas is fascinated by the fall of Rome and what happens to societies preceding their collapse.

There’s some quote by Lucas comparing the fall of the Republic to the fall of the Roman Republic (comparing Palpatine to Caesar), and he comments that dictators don’t come to power at the head of a conquering army, but by turning institutions in on themselves.

So this guy’s fascinated enough by the fall of the Roman Republic to base a trilogy off of it, but not enough to know that Caesar actually did come at the head of a conquering army? The Senate gave him dictatorial powers after he conquered Rome, and it was an attempt to limit his power, not to give him power.

Palpatine also seized power through a coup via order 66, and with an army he created. I’m not sure I see the contradiction.

I’m not sure that even counts as a coup. The Senate approved these of the Clone army, and I’ve always been under the impression (though it’s admittedly not established canonically) that the “emergency powers” they gave him authorized him to order the targeted killing of enemies of the Empire.

Vladius said:

theprequelsrule said:

The unlikability of the Jedi as portrayed in the PT is the culmination of a process that seemed to start with TESB. In SW77 the Jedi are portrayed as a sort of intergalactic police; a cross between The Knights of The Round Table, the Samurai, and The Lensmen. In Empire we get the warrior monk view of the Jedi. I guess Lucas preferred this view…but I prefer his original concept.

I like it better too with the caveat that I don’t think ESB is where it started.

People say that about ESB because Yoda and Obi Wan tell Luke not to go save his friends. Some things with that:

1. Not at all the same thing as the prequel prohibition on attachments. They never told him to not have friends or that having friends was wrong or not to get too attached to people.
2. In this scenario they were absolutely right to tell him not to go: it was a trap, he lost his hand, his friends got away anyway without him, and he almost died (tried to commit suicide to get out.) The only thing questionable the Jedi do is Obi Wan not telling him that Vader is his father.

Did they really get away “without him”? Vader probably could have kept them from escaping until Luke’s arrival, but once Luke arrived they had served their purpose, so why bother? He was busy with Luke. Let the troopers deal with his friends, and if they fail, no big deal.

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

George’s answer may have been “Word of God” at one point, but it has since been decanonized.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

But the only thing Anakin did to fulfill that role was kill the Emperor, and since TROS revealed that he did not actually kill the Emperor, he can’t be the Chosen One. It must be Rey.

yotsuya said:
Reva is clearly still wounded when she gets to Tatooine.

Meh. She seems to be a little sore. She doesn’t seem to have just been impaled by something hot enough to cut through bulkheads and gone about her ass-kicking business with no medical attention.

IIRC, when ANH:R came out in 2008, we were told to expect ESB:R in 2010 and the following films about one every two or three years. I'm wondering, what is the expected release schedule now? Is seven years per film the new normal?

I don't mean to sound ungrateful, I'm just wondering what to expect.

twooffour said:

They'll blow us into tiny pieces, and BLAAAST us into oblivion!

That’s just one of many examples of issues that arise from trying to make the PT so silly and kid-friendly. It would have been better if he’d delivered the line like he was actually talking about a menace they should be scared of instead of telling a joke.

It’s no coincidence that the best of the PT was the one in which Lucas was forced to be more grown-up than he wanted.

George Lucas said, about ROTS:

If you were a studio, I’m sure you would say, ‘This is way too dark. You’re going to alienate your audience.’ But what can I do? That’s the story.

His hands were tied by the OT, preventing him from making the more kid-oriented film he’d have preferred.

(1) Eye candy. When I first saw AOTC in the theater, I was awed by the imagery on display. Ten years later, it’s no longer as awe-inspiring as it once was, but it’s still cool. I’m looking forward to seeing how effectively it’s converted to 3D.

(2) Pernilla August. Shmi may be the most “real” character in the saga, thanks to a genuine performance by August.

(2b) Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor. Some say their talents are wasted, but I think they bring some feeling to characters who would have been completely indifferent in the hands of lesser actors.

[(Not 2b) On the other hand, the talents of Natalie Portman, Christopher Lee, Samuel Jackson, and Terrence Stamp are wasted, and Hayden Christensen turns in what may be the two worst performances of his career.]

(3) Darth Maul. I like his look and his spectacular duel with Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan.

(4) John Williams’ score. Many have already mentioned it in this thread. Duel of the Fates is particularly memorable.

(5) ADigitalMan. Does this count? His edits are a substantial improvement over the theatrical versions. I intend no disrespect to other PT fan edits, but ADM’s are my personal favorites and the ones with which I am most familiar.

xhonzi said:

The PT would not have fared well without the goodwill engendered by the OT.

Without the enormous success of the OT, Lucas might not have had absolute control and too big of a head to accept creative input from others. With a more humble or less powerful Lucas, the PT might have been a lot better. Even without making big changes to the story, just having a decent writer touch up the dialog would have gone a long way.

Baronlando said:

It was just a ham-fisted attempt to get kids and schlubs to like the movies better and buy the toys. And it worked.

Were you not around when the OOT was released?  Believe me, they were no less effective at appealing to kids and selling toys than the later versions aimed more directly (and more insultingly) at them.  That’s not the reason he’s burying the OOT.

doubleofive said:

By the logic they give, ESBR won't be able to be on there at all.

What is the logic they give?

I probably will see the PT in 3D.  Despite the PT’s dramatic failures, I really enjoyed the eye candy in the theater the first time around and I think it will look cool in 3D.

Asteroid-Man said:

It doesn't make any sense comparing the lighting on the three guys compared to the lighting of the background.

DF Shadow’s control room approach addresses that problem, doesn’t it?

Ganamae said:

well like to know what Lucas was thinking when he added the wrong arm and so much blood...

The blood is easy to explain: they hadn’t yet come up with the idea that a lightsaber cut cauterizes the wound and prevents bleeding.  I think they came up with that idea when filming ESB so Luke wouldn’t be suffering massive blood loss during his final confrontation with Vader.

Perhaps that’s something that should have been corrected for ANH-97 or -04.  Whatever.

zombie84 said:

I would assume 1977.

I would hope both through seamless branching, if the crawl is indeed the only difference.

Also, the ANH crawl was 1981, not 79.

I hope that doesn’t mean my SW fan credentials are revoked.

Monroville said:

Even this is off, as the vanishing point perspective still needs to be even lower (the "3 rebels" camera is roughly between waste and shoulder level, whereas the matte camera is somewhere around 10 to 15 feet off the floor)... regardless, you get the idea.

They’re standing on a platform?

savmagoett said:

About this matte we talked a while ago:

After an analysis I made (that I will post on my thread after the Falcon issue) I concluded that the transports scale is really wrong, the right transport in the background is missing its cockpit/pod and its landing gear doen't touch the ground.

I've done a mock-up to see if it's possible to solve the problems without actually changing the size of the matte:

Nice!

And I always felt that this scene was awfully quiet for an evacuation, it's especially true with this background guys now scaled down, so here's another one with more things going on:

 

Where would the “more things going on” come from?  Shoot new footage?  Just how sophisticated is this operation?

Erikstormtrooper said:

cap said:

Nobody has responded to my question about a TR of ANH-77 (or ANH-79).  Does one exist?

Not yet. Adywan has said he'll be making a TR after he finishes ESB-R.

Great!

Has he said whether it will be 77, 79, or both?

I think it would be straightforward to provide both through seamless branching.  The only difference is the opening crawl, right?

Alexrd said:

cap said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

The reason for preserving the original movies is not because they were "better" than the more recent versions (either George's or Ady's).  The reason is because they are a part of film history, and represent the state-of-the-art for special effects (and other things such as editing) that won the relevent Academy Awards in 1977.

Also, as much as I enjoy Adywan's edit, I still prefer the original.

I understand that, and it’s why I refer not only to the Revisited edits but also to Ady’s Theatrical Reconstruction of ESB, which is an almost-exact reproduction of the original film.  It’s also why I ask whether there’s a Theatrical Reconstruction of ANH.

There should be a proper release of the originals, ideally in hi-def.  We are in agreement that there’s no legitimate excuse for not doing it and Lucas is being an asshole.  But the TR comes pretty darn close to recreating what Lucas chooses to keep from us, at least in the case of ESB.

I don't think so. As the guy who wrote the article, you are hitting a strawman. People may like the GL Special Editions better than the originals, or Adywan's edits better than both, but that's not the problem. And Adywan's edit is way more different than the original than the Special Edition of TESB. Don't get me wrong, I love Adywan's work so far.

The Theatrical Reconstruction is not the same thing as the Revisited edit.  The TR is almost exactly a reproduction of ESB-1980.

Somebody correct me if I’m wrong about how close the TR is to ESB-80.

Nobody has responded to my question about a TR of ANH-77 (or ANH-79).  Does one exist?

Cristal Connors: I've had dog food.

Nomi Malone: You have?

Cristal Connors: Mmm-hmmm. Long time ago. Doggy Chow... I used to love Doggy Chow.

Nomi Malone: I used to love Doggy Chow, too!

From one of the most lambasted films of all time, which still makes it a heck of a lot better than the PT.