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Belbucus

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13-Mar-2005
Last activity
24-Dec-2017
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90

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Post
#885909
Topic
The Mono Mix Restoration Project (Released)
Time

Good evening Mr. Hen,

It has been awhile.

Ran across this post, and wanted to respond with a correction. The restoration of the mono mix never employed any audio from the Dolby Stereo mix as filler. Aside from the 20 Century Fox fanfare and portions of the opening and closing music, it is all from the two mono sources. (Luckily, the commercial breaks occurred at different intervals on the two, allowing me to patch any gaps on one with the other.)

From the original thread:

Originally posted by skijedi2005:

is there a way to get those from a stereo source say the star wars soundtrack anthology box set and convert them to mono? Or would it be better to get it from the 35mm mix?

Everything except portions of the opening and closing music are from the actual mono mix soundtrack – about 85-90% from the Moth3r transfer and the remainder from the Allan Mikkelsen transfer – equalized to match the former. After comparing the possible options, I pulled the open/close music from the original 1980 CD release on RSO, as it seemed to be the closest match. The later CD issues have all been remixed and/or remastered, and the various stereo film elements all have some degree of delay added (presumable to enhance the surround presentation) which sounded quite processed when folded down to mono. Again the music from the CD was equalized to match the Moth3r material. Even then it still sounded a bit too “pristine,” so it was transferred once to audiocassette and back to get the additional analogue tape compression needed to better match the Moth3r material.

Belbucus

Post
#300476
Topic
Info Wanted: 1984 VHS Hi-Fi Sound – A better source for the ’77 stereo mix?
Time
I have personally never done any comparison of the two formats. At the time, each was clearly an improvement over that which preceded it. They have relatively comparable specs with regard to frequency response and dynamic range. They also have individual issues with regard to artifacts. In this area I think the Laser would probably fare better. In addition, tape has the disadvantage of physical wear, degrading the playback over time (which could also exacerbate the severity of the artifacts).

Also, for the history record, RotJ was not released theatrically with digital sound. It did mark the showcase debut of the first commercial THX Theater System presentations, but the release format was standard Dolby format 42 (6-track mag - Baby Boom – Dolby A). The first feature film officially on record to be released with digital sound was Dick Tracy (Cinema Digital Sound – 1990). Although this was pre dated by a single digital sound presentation of “HOME OF THE BRAVE” at the 57th Street Playhouse, New York City in 1986. (The system utilized SMPTE timecode on 35mm composite magnetic film controlling VHS tape. Playback via 4-channel quad-amped system.)

Post
#293624
Topic
The Mono Mix Restoration Project (Released)
Time
I realized that in preparing this that I missed a step.

When folding the Dolby Stereo mix down to mono, I neglected to decode the surround channel separately and add it back in. As it is, any surround information has been phase cancelled and is essentially absent from the mono folddown. For this particular exercise, I think the track as it is, serves the purpose well enough - the sole exception being that the discreet echo on the dialogue in the chasm is not heard.

It is simple enough to fix and reissue if anybody wants me to.
Post
#293217
Topic
The Mono Mix Restoration Project (Released)
Time
Originally posted by: Arnie.d

“Belbucus, what is your next project? Recreating the 6-track? ”
(Not sure if you were kidding).… but the serious answer would be that the only available source for the discreet elements (outside of the Lucasfilm vault) would be from a 70mm print. Find me one and we’re in business! I could probably work up a Prologic version - stripping the additions off of the ‘93 mix, but personally I find them all to be welcome additions.


Originally posted by Schorman13: “…Any chance you would like to do sync up the '89 mixes of Empire and Jedi?”

I found you posed a similar question awhile back in this thread: http://www.originaltrilogy.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=9&threadid=6570&STARTPAGE=8

The dialogue was:

Schorman: Have you thought about doing the pre 1993 mixes of Empire and Jedi? They're probably not that different, but still interesting for completists.
Thanks again for the two mixes already available and for the others yet to be distributed.

Belbucus: I had not considered it for the reason you mentioned - that is, to my knowledge there are no significant differences to be had. Content is virtually the same, yes? The overall EQ maybe slightly different, but as I recall, the LT/RT versions of both of these were quite robust sounding and are probably very similar overall to the '93 mixes.


If something new has come to light, please let me know.


Originally posted by: Adywan

“I would like to ask your permission to use some dialogue from your mono mix for my edit.”

Fine with me…. I don’t own any rights to this stuff. You might find that it does not match up too well with the Stereo versions. If this turns out to be an issue let me know, and I’ll see what I can do. It might be better to start with the unprocessed files.
Post
#293171
Topic
The Mono Mix Restoration Project (Released)
Time
Monomix Chronicles – Postscript

Thanks for the preliminary kind words. I’d be the first to admit that it could always be better, but I think I exhausted about 95% of everything I could throw at it before I let it go (and, thanks for your patience on that one!)

So much to do with the sound of this project was a compromise. Subscribing to the notion that you can’t please everybody, consider the following sort of a preemptive document to any future critique.

The final composite turned out to be comprised of about 80% Moth3r file and 20% Alan Mikkelson file (with exception of the very open and close which were sourced from CD). Once into the mastering stage, I felt it necessary to replace some additional scenes (mostly the longer dialogue pieces) with the Mikkelson file, where it proved to be a cleaner source.

I deliberated long and hard about the final EQ for this thing.

I did some early tests with the approach of matching the overall EQ to that of its stereo counterparts, including the German track that shares some common elements. It was immediately clear that this was not the way to go. The result was very harsh and strident, and virtually unlistenable at higher volumes. I would chalk this up to a couple of things:

The design of the mono mix was to play respectably off of an optical soundtrack with no Dolby noise reduction in an average (lo-fi mono) theater. As such, it did not employ extended frequency response or dynamic range, as the target venues could not reproduce it. Furthermore, the release sound format (known as “Academy mono”) was designed to be reproduced through what is known as the “Academy Filter” - a hard roll-off in the theatrical system's playback response above ~2kHz (to -18dB at 8kHz) to minimize noise in mono optical tracks. Put simply, a severely truncated high frequency response. Typically, the practice in mixing for this limiting playback curve was to accentuate the midrange to give the track presence. Taking this into account, I would imagine that it was approached differently than its wider range counterparts.

The other contributing factor would be the source material, which came from the linear audio tracks of a VHS tape - of a television broadcast whose original audio was a transfer of a 35mm optical track with no noise reduction (optical tracks will always exhibit a unique signature distortion, most apparent in the mid and upper frequencies, and more pronounced with the absence of noise reduction).

The approach in mastering was to extend out the upper and lower frequencies, while attempting to quell some of the midrange edginess. To this end, I think I was reasonably successful. The primary reference monitor was a JBL 4435 system that meets professional THX cinema specifications - tuned with the modified X-curve for medium-small rooms. All mastering was done at a fixed monitor level of 85dbc, with the volume approximated to recreate typical cinema playback levels.

Lastly, although various single-ended noise reduction (hiss removal) schemes were applied to the source file, the process by nature is destructive to the program content as well. One CAN remove virtually all of the hiss, but not without also removing much of the subtle detail. The final product is usually best served by settling on a balance between the two. The hiss level that remained DID influence the decision as to how much high frequency boost could be added to the final product. Certainly, more boost would bring it closer to matching its stereo counterparts, but would also increase the hiss to an objectionable level – particularly at higher monitoring volumes. I’m still not satisfied with degree of hiss that remains, but I believe it is as good as I can make it with the technology currently available to me. That said, the effectiveness of digital noise reduction has progressed significantly since its inception. I can only imagine it will continue to improve with time. I will be archiving files at various stages of progress pertaining to this project, including a fully mastered version WITHOUT noise reduction. Perhaps I will revisit the project in a few years time to see if this aspect can be improved.

Over the two years I’ve spent working so intimately with this track, there was always a concern in the back of my head that by the time I was done I’d probably never want to hear it again! The outcome actually turned out to be quite the opposite. This may now be my favorite mix for the film. Maybe it’s simply a matter of finally coming home to the one that got me hooked on SW in the first place, but it seems to nail it in a way the others don’t quite manage to. I have noticed that there’s occasionally an inadvertent side effect to the quality of these older mono tracks that impart an edgier almost documentary quality, don’t draw so much attention to themselves, and end up better serving the story.

I think Neil S. Bulk said it best here:

“It's probably the best mix of the movie. Everything in it just sounds so right, to the point that I start saying to myself, "This is how it should have been all along". It's the most complete sounding version of the movie, and since it's all from 1977, nothing stands out as new, the way things in the 1993, 1997 and especially that horrendous 2004 mix do. I like the 1977 and 1985 Dolby mixes but even they don't seem to be as well done as the mono track.”

I would have to agree. Despite the shortcomings of this particular issue, it has become the one I default to. The music is much more prominent and well integrated; the effects and even dialogue seem to have more thrust.

One final note: This has been a collaborative effort. OK, if your keeping score, I’ve clearly logged the most hours, but none of this would have been possible without the generous assistance of MoveAlong, THX, Mallwalker, Russs15, Allan Mikkelsen, and most of all Moth3r. I am an audio engineer by profession. I deal with “professionals” everyday, and they all have their individual agendas. I cannot say I’ve had finer experience than working with the people on this board who seem to have none, and have consistently offered untiring, uncompromising collaboration without a second thought. Thank you one and all.


















Post
#284606
Topic
.: The XØ Project - Laserdisc on Steroids :. (SEE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES) (* unfinished project *)
Time
Zion,

I took a number of these “screenshots” during that period in different theaters. The camera always registered a hot spot from the projector’s light source in the center of the frame. Everything was shot with Kodacolor 400 print film (who knows how the color temp lined up).

Looking at the prints themselves, it’s apparent that some general brightness compensation was applied during processing. If you like, I could repost these without cropping the black masking at the edge of the movie screen. I think you would find that if I equalized the level of the masking to be the same for all, the two shots of Artoo in the canyon would appear even darker that what I posted originally.
Post
#284412
Topic
The Mono Mix Restoration Project (Released)
Time
No paricular issues that have not been covered in previous posts. Just some refining of the noise reduction and final touches to the mastering EQ. I've already sent the completed file to Moth3r for review, and so he can cut me a test DVD with the audio converted to AC-3. With all the minor synch issues I was experiencing with my video reference, I wanted to check synch with an actual DVD before letting it fly.
Post
#283726
Topic
.: The XØ Project - Laserdisc on Steroids :. (SEE FIRST POST FOR UPDATES) (* unfinished project *)
Time
I thought I’d throw in a couple of pennies here.

Artoo in the canyon:

First, let me say that I had SW burned into my head in its theatrical run, so that has always been my reference. It is also quite understandable that those whose were first initiated with any one of the video issues would tend to feel more at home with that.

That said, it has always been my impression that about the only thing they DID get right in the more recent transfers was the proper exposure. All of the earlier transfers were probably done by the in house transfer departments at FOX Video (Domestic, Japanese, whatever). I am reasonably confident that they did not have the benefit of the filmmaker’s or DP’s input or a timed print to reference. Without any specific guidance, I imagine it was a matter of getting it to look acceptable overall and moving on to the next job.

Although all the exteriors from Artoo in the canyon up to the longshot of the sandcrawler coming over the dune were shot “day for night” (shot in daylight but several stops underexposed with filters to simulate various shades of night), I believe the intent was always to convey a gradual transition from twilight of the first day into the morning of the second. Furthermore, it’s doubtful that any production stills of these scenes would reflect the exposure offsets or filtering applied to the actual camera footage.

I can offer a couple of examples to support this – shot off a theater screen in ’77.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3316/3aslp5.jpg
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6110/8asjw7.jpg
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8902/1ashv2.jpg
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5956/2asnf7.jpg

I don’t mean to suggest that the still images of these frames represent any sort of definitive reference. I present it only to illustrate that when compared to shots of daylight scenes taken with the same camera settings, the two of Artoo in the canyon appear quite dark in comparison.

For the record, this is not at all uncommon in video transfers of scenes that were shot “day for night”. Another good example is the Mount Rushmore sequence in North by Northwest, which in the story’s timeline takes place at night. This was botched on transfer after transfer to appear as if shot on a sunny afternoon until the most recent one where they finally got it right.



Opening crawl:

Again, considering my reference of choice, my vote would be for the original. If you listen to the music against the original crawl, you may notice that as each of the 3 paragraphs unfolds on the screen, it is in sync with the downbeat of three distinct musical statements, as well as the previously mentioned sting that syncs with the reveal of Tatooine. I always thought this happened by design (a notion I have more recently come to doubt) and was always bothered by how the inclusion of “A New Hope” destroyed the rhythm of this sequence.

Lastly, one more frame from ’77, just to further corroborate the authenticity of the GOUT crawl:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9936/4asyb0.jpg

If you look at the position of the few stars that were bright enough to register on the photo, they clearly match that of the same frame from the GOUT.
Post
#277859
Topic
Info Wanted: Were ESB & ROTJ remixed in 1985?
Time
An addendum to my previous post (and slightly further off topic):

Although I’ve never seen this documented in any film sound history timeline, I always recall an ad that ran for many weeks in the New York Times in the mid eighties for a film presentation featuring digital sound….I finally found this from Boston Light and Sound regarding the engagement:

“HOME OF THE BRAVE” A film by Laurie Anderson (April 1986)
Digital sound presentation at the 57th Street Playhouse, New York City. To our knowledge, this is the first public presentation of a feature in digital sound. System included S.M.P.T.E. time code on 35mm composite magnetic film controlling VHS tape. Playback via 4-channel quad-amped system.
CLIENT: Cinecom
Post
#277846
Topic
Info Wanted: Were ESB & ROTJ remixed in 1985?
Time
Originally posted by : Russs15

The 1985 mixes were DIGITAL Sound re-mixes. ROTJ was one of the first films released with DIGITAL Sound at the theatre. Therefore, I do not believe there to be a 1985 DIGITAL Sound re-mix as it was DIGITAL Sound in the first place


Slightly off topic, but RotJ was not released with digital sound. The first feature film on record to be released with digital sound was Dick Tracy (Cinema Digital Sound – 1990).

RotJ did mark the showcase debut of the first commercial THX Theater System presentations, but the release format was standard Dolby 42 (6-track mag - Baby Boom –Dolby A).
Post
#262256
Topic
Info: 2006 GOUT DVD using 'Faces' PCM Sound?
Time
Been busy with work and holiday stuff, though I was able to put in some time this week. I'm about 110 minutes in with a coarse synch, with a dozen or so scenes unconfirmed until I can run it synch to the actual DVD. As I mentioned earlier, the process with which I currently find myself stuck has slowed things up considerably. I’ll have a better idea where I stand once I cut the first test DVD.
Post
#257484
Topic
Info: 2006 GOUT DVD using 'Faces' PCM Sound?
Time
Originally posted by skijedi2005:

Belbucus are you restoring the missing segments of the mono soundtrack, like the 20th century fox theme and the first few bars of star wars main theme as well as the damaged parts?
Already done.


Originally posted by skijedi2005:

is there a way to get those from a stereo source say the star wars soundtrack anthology box set and convert them to mono? Or would it be better to get it from the 35mm mix?
Everything except portions of the opening and closing music are from the actual mono mix soundtrack – about 85-90% from the Moth3r transfer and the remainder from the Allan Mikkelsen transfer – equalized to match the former. After comparing the possible options, I pulled the open/close music from the original 1980 CD release on RSO, as it seemed to be the closest match. The later CD issues have all been remixed and/or remastered, and the various stereo film elements all have some degree of delay added (presumable to enhance the surround presentation) which sounded quite processed when folded down to mono. Again the music from the CD was equalized to match the Moth3r material. Even then it still sounded a bit too “pristine,” so it was transferred once to audiocassette and back to get the additional analogue tape compression needed to better match the Moth3r material.


Originally posted by skijedi2005:

could you tell me how you are cleaning up and restoring the mono mix?

I began with two nearly complete sources to draw from. As both of them came from PAL broadcasts, they had to be varispeeded down to match the GOUT audio. The next step was to establish which to use as the master, which ended up being the Moth3r transfer. Overall, it was much more dynamic with more solid bass response throughout. The material from Allan Mikkelsen was superior in high frequency response and signal to noise, but there was clearly some additional processing applied at the time of the original broadcast that made it less desirable. It also had a relentless background of minute clicks and pops that would need removal. It did have the advantage of being commercial free, so it was able to cover most of what was missing in the Moth3r track. I used it primarily to replace the gaps and damaged bits in the Moth3r, and for some of the quieter sections where the superior signal to noise proved to be an advantage. As far as cleanup, it was basically a process of going through the Moth3r master - manually removing occasional clicks and pops, as well as cataloging any dropouts or damaged sections that could not be remedied by basic editing, then patching those as well as the larger missing sections with the Mikkelsen track. The last step in the basic reconstruction was the inclusion of the open and close music as described above. As with the much less intensive restoring of the Dolby Stereo track, great care was taken to match the equalization, dynamics, background noise etc of the various source elements to integrate seamlessly in the final presentation. A final mastering stage will probably entail a noise reduction application to take the background hiss down a bit, and some overall EQ. And then of coarse it needs to be synched to the GOUT. One should keep in mind, that the source material for this came from the linear audio tracks of a VHS tape - likely several generations away from the original - of a television broadcast whose original audio was a transfer of a 35mm optical track. It will never sound like a one off transfer from a mag printmaster, but I think I can predict with some confidence that it will surpass anything currently available.


Originally posted by skijedi2005:

You said in a previous post on this forum you had two sources, what is the equipment being used and is the cleanup a digital process?

I am working primarily in ProTools which is a digital audio workstation.


Originally posted by skijedi2005:


Does anyone know why Lucasfilm never released the mono soundtrack. It must be in the Lucasfilm archives. to me when listening to it it sound more finished and polished that either the 35mm or 70mm mixes, and has several subtle nuances that are severely lacking is those other mixes….would it be possible to create a new sound mix using the best of all three mixes and why has lucas not done so. He has the master tapes for the mono mix sessions apparently so why not just re-record those elements not in the others into stereo?

I am of the understanding that, at this point in time, the mix elements or even stems are no longer available to them even if they did want to generate a new mix along the lines of what you describe. More to the point, it’s clear that Lucas’ interests fall far from yours and mine, which is why we are all here! (I’ve stated before that it is quite probable that a mag master of the mono mix still exists in their archives that will likely never see the light of day – which is why I am doing this in the first place.)
Post
#257230
Topic
Info: 2006 GOUT DVD using 'Faces' PCM Sound?
Time
Progress on the mono mix work was temporarily suspended in an effort to resolve some peculiar synchronization anomalies I was experiencing. Two other members have kindly helped out in converting the GOUT video to Quicktime so I could import it into ProTools as a video reference (for more details, see here: http://www.originaltrilogy.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=9&threadid=6714&highlight_key=y). I discovered while working with this file that it did not maintain absolute synch with the audio – occasionally falling behind by 7-8 frames and then catching up. Why this is happening seems to be a mystery to everyone involved.

At this point, I am going to resume with what I have – using the Quicktime file as a coarse reference only, and comparing directly to the DVD as I go. Unfortunately, this is going to slow the process up somewhat. Sorry about the delay, but at least things are back on track.
Post
#254855
Topic
Info: 2006 GOUT DVD using 'Faces' PCM Sound?
Time
Originally posted by: klocwerk
Did you use just the 2CD soundtracks as your source?
Yes.

Originally posted by: klocwerk
Also, for cues that were not used in the film but presented on the discs did you reinsert these?
No, the effect I was going for was to present the full soundtrack – stripping out everything except the score whenever a cue played.

Originally posted by: klocwerk
Finally, do you intend to do similar tracks for Empire & Jedi?

No.

Originally posted by: klocwerk
Also, I was wondering if it would be at all worth it sending mallanikkelsen's MP3 of the "Descriptive Audio" for Star Wars your way?

It would not be of any personal interest, though I would consider contributing to an effort to make this available (to Allan in particular, as I am in his debt for providing me with some of the material used in the mono mix restoration).

Originally posted by: Mallwalker
I think this laserdisc contains the Dolby Stereo mix found on 35mm prints.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t all versions of ESB (and RotJ) prior to the DC ’93 use the 35mm Dolby Stereo mix? And if so, wouldn’t the “89 WS or “92 P&S with PCM digital tracks provide a superior source? Again, I’m not sure that there is ultimately much to be gained in pursuing a synch of the pre ’93 audio for either film. In each case, I think one would find them to be very similar to the PCM ’93 mixes.
Post
#254276
Topic
Info: 2006 GOUT DVD using 'Faces' PCM Sound?
Time
A few comments about the latest soundtrack synch to the GOUT – my take on an isolated score: I realize this has been done before. In fact it was not till I had finished this that I had a chance to hear the Editdroid version (which I thought was quite good).

There are however, a few things that distinguish this version from the previous ones. First, any un-scored sections have been filled with the audio from the DC ’93 mix. Second, in most cases the levels have been remixed to approximate the way they played in the context of the film. I say “in most cases” as some of the more dramatic level rides in the film were to make room for other sound elements, and do not lend themselves well to presenting the music on its own. The other change worth mentioning is that I added treatments to the very clean CD versions of the Cantina cues to more approximate the way they sound in the film (depicting music performed live within the scene as opposed to a disembodied score).

I am pretty happy with the way it came together. I almost enjoy it more as a stand-alone audio piece. This was always one of my favorite John Williams scores, and it’s nice to hear it exactly as it was in the film with the bridging of the additional audio.

Once again, this should synch to the GOUT DVD with the same offset applied to the DC48 and DS48 files. It has also been mastered at the same reference level as the DC’93 PCM and the 2nd issue/re-adjusted Dolby Stereo mix.
Post
#253992
Topic
Info: 2006 GOUT DVD using 'Faces' PCM Sound?
Time
I will get to it. But it does require substantially more work than the soundtracks for ESB and RotJ, and it's just not particularly high on my list. I actually hope to be getting the mono mix back on track this week. In the meantime, look for a new "iso-score / DC '93 hybrid" coming soon via the usual channels. I'll elaborate more once it has been posted.