Yotsuya's Saga Restoration (* unfinished project *) — Page 2

Here are the differences between the 97 SE, the 2004 DVD and the 2011 BR versions. 97 and 2004 are in perfect sync except for Han/Greedo shootout. They edited it and changed the length. They changed it again in 2011, adding 4 frames (including the Greedo puppet) - they also removed 4 frames from the end of reel one to make the overall running time match. At least this is how the TB/G’kar mix I made worked out. To make the video and audio match, you’d want to lift the Han/Greedo audio from 2011 (or 2004 if you want to sync to that one). I can do it while I’m syncing the 97 DTS to the TB/G’kar mix. Good practice for extracting the audio from the 2011 DTS track.

While we are on the subject, anyone know of a good tool that will extract the multi-tracks (DTS/AC3/AAC) to mono waves and correctly label them? I had a very good tool for that, but it was on my old (currently defunct and in storage) computer. I have a way right now, but is is clumsy and lossy (I’d have to convert to aac and then import into Vegas).

yotsuya said:

Here are the differences between the 97 SE, the 2004 DVD and the 2011 BR versions. 97 and 2004 are in perfect sync except for Han/Greedo shootout. They edited it and changed the length. They changed it again in 2011, adding 4 frames (including the Greedo puppet) - they also removed 4 frames from the end of reel one to make the overall running time match. At least this is how the TB/G’kar mix I made worked out. To make the video and audio match, you’d want to lift the Han/Greedo audio from 2011 (or 2004 if you want to sync to that one). I can do it while I’m syncing the 97 DTS to the TB/G’kar mix. Good practice for extracting the audio from the 2011 DTS track.

While we are on the subject, anyone know of a good tool that will extract the multi-tracks (DTS/AC3/AAC) to mono waves and correctly label them? I had a very good tool for that, but it was on my old (currently defunct and in storage) computer. I have a way right now, but is is clumsy and lossy (I’d have to convert to aac and then import into Vegas).

Unless the dts mix I have is just missing a few frames the 2011 version also has extra blank black frames in the fade out while Luke and droids walk into the hut.

Possessed said:

yotsuya said:

Here are the differences between the 97 SE, the 2004 DVD and the 2011 BR versions. 97 and 2004 are in perfect sync except for Han/Greedo shootout. They edited it and changed the length. They changed it again in 2011, adding 4 frames (including the Greedo puppet) - they also removed 4 frames from the end of reel one to make the overall running time match. At least this is how the TB/G’kar mix I made worked out. To make the video and audio match, you’d want to lift the Han/Greedo audio from 2011 (or 2004 if you want to sync to that one). I can do it while I’m syncing the 97 DTS to the TB/G’kar mix. Good practice for extracting the audio from the 2011 DTS track.

While we are on the subject, anyone know of a good tool that will extract the multi-tracks (DTS/AC3/AAC) to mono waves and correctly label them? I had a very good tool for that, but it was on my old (currently defunct and in storage) computer. I have a way right now, but is is clumsy and lossy (I’d have to convert to aac and then import into Vegas).

Unless the dts mix I have is just missing a few frames the 2011 version also has extra blank black frames in the fade out while Luke and droids walk into the hut.

I may have mis-remembered which way the 4 frames went. It could be 4 cut from the shootout and 4 added to the fade out, but I clearly remember noticing it was 4 frames in both places.

Four frames cut from the shoot out and added to the fade out would fit with what I remember having to do to keep sync.

Last year, I’ve created a group of 5.1 DTS audio files containing the 1997 Cinema DTS theatrical sound mix of the Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition that are edited to play in sync with this forum’s released GOUT versions (Harmy’s editions). All you would have to do is mux these audio files to the MKV videos. They are all available on the ‘spleen.

The material that I used came from the group of 5.1 DTS audio files (also available on the ‘spleen) that was prepared by our member, CapableMetal. CapableMetal extracted the PCM mono wave files from the CinemaDTS CD-ROMs and sync’d them to TB broadcasts of the Special Edition trilogy. I took CapableMetal’s sync’d DTS audio files and spliced them with the 5.1 DTS audio files of hairy_hen reconstruction of his 6-track, 70mm sound mixes for the GOUT versions to fill-in portions of the GOUT footage where the special edition audio would be inappropriate.

Currently working on the 97 SE. What a patchwork to reassemble these. ANH wasn’t too hard. Between TB and Gkar, all the frames are there. But TESB is missing frames at one point from both and ROTJ is missing frames at 4 points. All reel changes. I’ve had to pull most of them from the newer HD sources. I think I have it, but the patchwork is pretty complicated and my system is balking at rendering it. My slower machine is having more luck. Should have a good version of the video in the next few days. I think the OOT might be done, or close to it. The BR may be more challenging and is going to be far more restoration then color correction or enhancement. But at this point I think I see the finish line.

My project has moved from video to audio. I’m trying to nail down the “special features” portion of my project. For the OOT, I am using LD audio sources. For the SE, TPM, and AOTC, I am using the Cinema DTS. For ROTS I am going to use the Dolby Digital EX from the DVD. So far I have my first draft of the 77 4 channel surround, a near final assembly of TPM, and a second try at AOTC. I have not started on the SE or the other OOT soundtracks yet. I want to do the SE, comparing it to the DVD version so I can get a feel for the right volume mix, before I do anything more with trying to extract and enhance the surround mixes from the LD stereo tracks. My first try at the 77 mix left the surround channel volume too low. Slow steady progress.

What is the source for the theatrical version of AOTC? Also, would you be willing to release the 97’s and TPM separately?

Wazzles said:

What is the source for the theatrical version of AOTC? Also, would you be willing to release the 97’s and TPM separately?

The DVD version and a camera print of the film along with the Cinema DTS audio. Because they don’t align, it is nearly impossible to do a side by side comparison to verify that the reported 3 scenes are the only ones that were changed without a ton of work. I pulled those three scenes from the camera print and degraded the dvd video slightly so the change wasn’t so jarring, which also makes it fit better with the TMP theatrical version found in the TB and ORF broadcasts. For ROTS, I have a leaked low res copy that circulated just before the movie opened (it has no end credits) that agrees with the DVD version except for the one changed wipe we know of, so I have used the DVD version with that one wipe pulled from the blu-ray. I also degraded it to fit with the TPM theatrical version.

If anyone knows how to warp one video to line up with another, I am interested in finding out because I could do some creative editing like Harmy has done with is despecialized to do a better restoration of those three sections of AOTC and up the quality of all three PT.

Okay, A New Hope SE is really messed up. I now see why they went a completely different direction when it was DVD time. In many ways it is more of a sad mess than the digital version. But there is a lot of good stuff in there that shows how badly they did the digital version. I have been avoiding coming to this conclusion, but I think A New Hope on BR is going to require an almost scene by scene color correction. Everything else is moving forward, slowly. I have the SE and PT DTS tracks synced and I have listened to most of them. I need to use the SE to properly balance the OOT surround channels and LFE. Though I have noticed that A New hope is pretty weak compared to the others even in that area. I have a final edit of the GOUT audio so now I need to sync the various LD tracks to that. First up, the 77 surround mix. I think I’m going to have to do them twice, once in stereo and once in full surround, in order to have both sound good. The patches are going to have to be from the 2006 GOUT or the 1993 LD audio as they are the only complete ones and the sound may not match very well. But I am far better with sound than I am with video so this should be a piece of cake. I’m just using Sony Vegas to sync them because it is so easy. I may still bring them in to Cool Edit to make the edits themselves. Still, other ides may come to mind. This is a lot of work going back to the source files, but it is also quite fun. Not really reinventing the wheel, just doing it the way I want it done.

How is the '81 crawl and flyover coming, just out of curiosity.

sergejames said:

How is the '81 crawl and flyover coming, just out of curiosity.

99% done. Just trying to decide how to get the last parts to look perfect (the lines between the SD and the BR and moon). I’m at the point where I need to get it finished. All I need to finish on the GOUT portion of this project is the audio (9 different mixes) and the flyover. It would be nice to have that part finished.

To fix or not to fix? I figured out how to patch some of the worst DNR issues of the GOUT, but do I fix them or not? I think yes. The ones I identified that really stick out to me are the starfiled in the port of the Escape Pod, R2 in the Canyon (except when the Jawas shoot him), when the 2nd stormtrooper stands up, the flyover into Mos Eisley, the drive by in Mos Eisley, and when Han gets up and meets Greedo. There are others, but they don’t really stand out as much. Other stars that flicker, other motion ghosting, but those are the ones I’ve identified as the worst. I haven’t seen any that bad in TESB or ROTJ.

I’ve also decided to completely dump the 77 crawl that came out with the GOUT in favor of the 35 mm scan that Williarob shared with me. I used it for the 81 crawl and find that it looks far better with the rest of the GOUT than what got tacked on in 2006.

I have completed my syncing of the 97 SE and PT DTS audio, as well as syncing the LD audio and patching the reel changes and disc divisions. I started LD audio syncing with the US and UK GOUT audio. I compiled the full version of each film (inserting the missing frames as needed while comparing to the 93 DE LD sources). ANH and TESB were matched to the UK GOUT (which has inferior audio) and I stretched ROTJ to fill the missing frame (comparing both GOUT versions indicated that the audio was complete even though frames were missing). Then I used that as my master track to sync the 93 faces LD audio (fewer splices so it creates a more accurate audio track and I could not tell any major difference between it and the DE audio). I patched the splices as necessary with the GOUT audio. Then I used that master track to fill the splices of the theatrical audio and the 85 ANH audio. Just finished that yesterday. I still need to work on the mono. Next, I will be running all those mixes through a surround processor to pull out the surround tracks, making a 6 track flac, then fixing as needed and exporting to ac3.

I believe I am done with my color correcting except for ANH SE. That is a problem child. It does not want to get fixed. The early part of it is very inconsistent and there are some major color changes in different sections. Often where an SE change was inserted. I’m going to finish the GOUT and then return to it.

Thanks to Williarob, I have a nice reference for the 97 SE of ANH. That is one messed up transfer. Reel 1 is too dark. I have corrected the G’kar/TB mix to be closer to the GOUT color correction and fixed a number of color issues that my references indicate were not in the 97 ANH SE theatrical prints. I left the yellow cantina scenes because that seems to be a deliberate color decision.

My GOUT color correction is done. I still have to tune my 81 crawl remaster so it looks more like the DE/Faces version. I went with the Faces audio because there doesn’t seem to be any quality difference with the DE (from the same transfer so it should be identical) and there are only two side changes to patch (using the US GOUT audio because the cut is no seemless) in each film. I’m finding that what should be the highest quality audio source is not always the obvious one. The ANH 85 mix was also pretty easy to edit, but the original theatrical versions have a lot of patching. Just about one patch in every reel, not including disc side changes.

I was also reminded of a 4th visual change to AOTC. Debating on that theatrical cut. I might resort to some DE type editing to improve the quality. Also debating on TPM, whether I should stay true to the broadcast or use the DVD to match my AOTC and ROTS theatrical versions.

So far the only subtitles I have completed are the TPM. I still need to do AOTC, ANH SE, ROTJ SE, ANH GOUT, and ROTJ GOUT. Since I am using the UK GOUT, I will have to time them and position them myself.

I am considering my previous work on the Blu-ray to be outdated. I have found other ways to do the universal color correction that I start with so I basically have to start over. Not completely, but mostly. My last attempt went a little too far, but produced some excellent results so I just need to try to back off of it a bit. Also, DrDre’s color corrections have provided some awesome references to compare to.

JawsTDS said:

Thank you for your efforts. I am incredibly excited for this!

Same here!

I have color correction for the GOUT finished, but I am going to patch some of the worst DNR shots. Vegas isn’t cooperating with me so I’m redoing my patches. Time consuming but worth it. I’m also working on the audio. I finally had the chance to listen to the 85 ANH surround mix and found it lacking. The decoder I used was not very nice. The surround channels were inverted so the important things of note in the surround channel were muted. That necessitated rebalanceing the surround and LFE. In the process I found that the 85 mix of ANH needs the surround and LFE (derived from the surround) lowered more than the others (6 db instead of 3). I’m making the theatrical and the 85 ANH 4.1 mixes (5.1 with both surrounds identical) to match what I’ve found out about the 6 track 70 mm versions. I’m leaving the 93 mixes as full 5.1. I’m still trying to figure out the original mix, but home 5.1 mixes appeared on LD not long after the DE came out.

Not really a preservation or restoration, but more of a remix, but I just completed my 5.1 edit that imports the most notable changes make to the mono-mix. It includes Beru, several other alternate lines, sound effects, etc. Most come directly from the mono mix, but I’ve also used the 2011 BR to fill in to expand the mono to full surround. I’ve used the 93 ANH mix as the base. I also replaced the Fox Fanfare with the TESB one (I’ve never understood why they have never updated the music after rerecording it for TESB, not even for the SE). I’m glad I did most of the work in stereo first. Doing it in 5.1 was actually easier. I had to cheat in a few cases and resort to using the 2011 5.1 surround tracks instead of the L/R tracks due to traces of the original dialog. But the 93 mix (at least as we have it as a matrixed stereo track) has a lot of cross talk so I had to recreate that and the two little tricks end up sounding very natural. I still have to listen to the mix to see if it is final or if it needs work, but I have all the edits in place.

As a side benefit, I now have what I feel is an accurate LFE for the 93 mix. With some tweaking it should work for the 77 and 85 audio as well. But I will need to do that for TESB and ROTJ as well. That and a few other tweaks means the 5.1 mixes I’m working on won’t be just decoded Dolby Stereo. For the original theatrical audio mixes it will be close to the 70 mm 4.2 audio (modern equipment doesn’t really allow for 2 LFE tracks). For the 93 mixes, I am going to leave the surround as the ProLogic II stereo surround. It is not identical to the 97 SE, but very similar.

I also need to redo my BR ANH edit and finally get to TESB and ROTJ. I think I have a new approach that gets closer than my previous one. My GOUT color correction is, I think, final. The audio is almost final (LFE and tweaking the sync left). The 97 SE needs some tweaking to match my GOUT color correction. The only thing I need to do on the audio is pull the LFE track from Althor1138’s LD AC3 track. I think the end of this project is in sight.

At long last, an update. I spent some time away from it working on a completely different sort of project. Thanks to DrDre and the 4k77 team, I got motivated to get back to work on this. I tweaked my gout color correction and made it lean more yellow. That was the last piece to really bring the GOUT in line with the best color corrections of the 35 mm print. Those who see yellow tint as bad are going to hate the settings I have decided on as for nearly every scene I have upped the yellow (among other things). The warm flesh tones and the general warmth of the image make it worth it. Clouds should not be pink except at sunset/sunrise but clouds at other times of day often do have a bit of yellow to them.

My color correction goal is not to make these films look exactly like they did when we first saw them, but make them feel like the films we remember seeing. Given that the GOUT is extremely flawed in many ways, I have used it as a guide for color correcting the Blu-ray versions of the OT. I have also relied on the Blu-ray version of American Graffiti as well as many other films. I am not interesting in identifying what color the Blockade Runner or Death Star walls were on set, but rather making the images come alive. I’m trying to be true to the spirit of the original colors and matching the GOUT as close as possible. In many cases the blu-ray has richer colors. A lot of the corrections are not just to colors, but to brightness, darkness, contrast, saturation, and other settings. I don’t know what process they used at ILM when they scanned the original negatives (according to Lowry, they were given drives with the movies already scanned - they never saw the negatives) but the results are horrible. All three films lean toward red/magenta with A New Hope being the worst. These have to be some of the worst digitized movies I have ever seen. So where possible I am bringing them back to where the GOUT was. Some shots are too changed and some shots are new. Again, A New Hope got the worst end of the deal. But then again, it is horribly faded (something they could fix if they used the 3 color separation George had made as a backup but that had warped so it was not usable in 93 but could be scanned and digitally aligned like they have done to virtually every old film restored with the same issues).

So warm skin tones, azure sky, cobalt R2, gold 3PO, white snow, bright light sabers, bright explosions, and bright engine glows. These things are what are driving my color corrections. Secondly trying to keep costumes the right color along with sets and props. But always comparing to the GOUT and not worrying about things that were perfect to begin with. Red Leader in ANH has more helmet colors than he should. A lot of that is from the GOUT, but to a lesser degree. So unlike my previous correction attempt, this time I followed the GOUT. That was plenty hard enough.

Thanks to the marvelous full 1080 HD preservation of the DVD version, I have chosen that as the version to focus on. I have used the blu-ray except for the scenes that were changed. I did keep a couple of changes that were fixes and I did leave a couple that tie to the soundtrack (the Han/Greedo shootout and the Dug in Jabba’s palace). I restored the correct start of reel 2 in ANH. In addition to my color correction being a touch yellow (Which actually matches The Last Jedi as well as the 35 mm prints of the originals), I also replaced the logos at the start. The OT ones weren’t original to begin with. I used a newer version of the Fox logo and the new Lucasfilm logo (from the ST) on all the films. I replaced the audio of the Fox Fanfare for A New Hope with the one from TESB. Since I have to make those edits to the 5.1 mix, I will also explore fixing some audio that is actually worse in the 2011 mix, at least in ANH.

But the most important thing to me is that for the first time I have watched the SE of the OT and not cringed. No lobster-men, dull explosions, or the other flaws that have kept me from enjoying any version on home video except the GOUT. Screen caps of the OT to follow.

A New Hope

The Empire Strikes Back

Return of the Jedi

This sounds cool.

Thanks to some new material after the new saga release, I have new ideas for this. Though it is not at the forefront of my efforts any longer.