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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 168

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Collipso said:

Mrebo said:

Collipso, as you saw above I have some of the same questions. If there are supposed to be deeper themes and meaningful character arcs, they should become richer upon inspection, or at least not fall apart. Unless this was the intention, to show that stuff happens and nobody can see the future, nobody is necessarily right or wrong. This plays into the idea that TJL is a nihilist work - something I haven’t been convinced on.

However, RJ may be focused on the ethics of decisions, whatever the morality or practical result. This would at least accord with his treatment of the light vs dark side, I think.

Yeah but I don’t think that simply the ethics of the decisions is a good enough reason to sacrifice basically all the lore and understanding that we previously had and was previously established of the force, how it works and the training to become a powerful force user, etc.

I agree…but if I’m right about what RJ was doing, he came at the project with a wholly different orientatation from which he doesn’t see a conflict, or at least not a meaningful conflict. From that kind of view, telling a story of good vs evil is flat and facile. By making the story a question of ethics, it is automatically more complex. It is like adding a third dimension, rather than creating a conflict - so long as you view it from that third dimension.

To illustrate, consider Yoda’s line that “we are what they grow beyond.” It’s not blatantly at odds with any particular line in the OT. But it is a different point of view from looking beyond this crude matter and to the Force. In that line, I see the same kind of focus on ethical behavior that others can carry on rather than moral choices which allow becoming one with the Force.

The blue elephant in the room.

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adywan said:

Warbler said:

In ESB, Obiwan says that if Luke goes to face Vader he will face him alone, “I can not help you”. But look what Yoda did in TLJ. Sure seems like Obiwan could have lent a hand now.

He says “If you chose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere” . This wasn’t that he couldn’t do anything, but the fact that Luke had to face this challenge on his own. He was being warned that he needed to complete his training, but he refused to listen and needed to face the consequences and not feel that Obi-Wan could just come along and save his ass.

Well that makes Obiwan to be a real jerk. An incomplete Luke is going to face Darth f-ing Vader. He knows Luke is not ready. For he knew, Luke would have gotten killed and then things would really be up the shaft. He was the second to last hope for the galaxy and Obiwan is going to risk the whole galaxy just to teach Luke a lesson???

And don’t forget Obi-Wan’s line in ANH: “If you strike me down, i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” . Up until TLJ, the most we see a force ghost being able to do is interact with their surroundings by moving some twigs and sitting in a log. A force ghost being able to use that power has been there since day one.

I never understood the line as a kid, but when I grew up, understood it mean that he’d be more powerful as a martyr for the cause.

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dahmage said:

Warbler said:

dahmage said:

Warbler said:

So tell me something, just who was Luke’s equal in the dark side in the OT? As one rises in one side of the force, another rises on the opposite side, right? It couldn’t have been Vader, he rose to power a lot early in the PT and he didn’t get more powerful as Luke got more powerful. Also if that idea is true, there should have been a lot more dark jedis around during the PT, one for every jedi.

not really. I understood that line to have more to do with their being no existing light side users for the force to balance against, so it all manifested in one place. If Luke wasn’t cut off from the force, i think things would have been different.

that is not how I read it all.

Also, its all made up stuff anyway.

I’m sorry, but there is no reason to say this.

  1. we all know that

  2. that could excuse any continuity error/plot hole in any fiction.

  3. it being true, doesn’t mean the fiction universe shouldn’t make sense.

  4. its lame to say it

In ESB, Obiwan says that if Luke goes to face Vader he will face him alone, “I can not help you”. But look what Yoda did in TLJ. Sure seems like Obiwan could have lent a hand now.

different people. different circumstances.

um no, same universe. same force. Either force ghosts can do what Yoda can do in TLJ or they can’t. Unless you the movie explains how the force somehow changed and now force ghosts can do things they couldn’t do before. But no explanation was giving.

Also, all made up.

read what I wrote above about that.

just because one force ghost does something, doesn’t mean all can. and even if all can, doesn’t mean all will.

different people. different circumstances.

Well it would be nice if the movie explained why one can and other can’t. It doesn’t do that.

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dahmage said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

dahmage said:

Warbler said:

So tell me something, just who was Luke’s equal in the dark side in the OT? As one rises in one side of the force, another rises on the opposite side, right? It couldn’t have been Vader, he rose to power a lot early in the PT and he didn’t get more powerful as Luke got more powerful. Also if that idea is true, there should have been a lot more dark jedis around during the PT, one for every jedi.

not really. I understood that line to have more to do with their being no existing light side users for the force to balance against, so it all manifested in one place. If Luke wasn’t cut off from the force, i think things would have been different.

that is not how I read it all.

Also, its all made up stuff anyway.

I’m sorry, but there is no reason to say this.

  1. we all know that

  2. that could excuse any continuity error/plot hole in any fiction.

  3. it being true, doesn’t mean the fiction universe shouldn’t make sense.

  4. its lame to say it

I agree with this. If it’s “all made up stuff anyway,” then why should we discuss it? There’s no reason to discuss the details of any fiction if you accept that excuse.

you do realize that i added the ‘and its all made up anyway’ as a mostly throw-away joke after my answer? But i guess lets focus on that. sorry if Warb felt i was insulting him, i wasn’t.

I did not realize it was a joke. sorry. But I didn’t think you were insulting me.

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Mocata said:

Maybe Yoda is just that strong even in death. Maybe being dead for 30 years powered him up. Maybe the temple location gives him more energy. Maybe it’s just a thing that wanted to do for fun and Obi-wan takes things too seriously. Maybe the the question isn’t why can he do this out of nowhere, but why shouldn’t he? There are so many options in a magical space fantasy and

again the movie never explains why Yoda can and Obiwan can’t. It never explains that it takes 30 years for him to be able to do what he did.

again I say don’t you think it would have been nice if Yoda after he died in ROTJ made an appearance in the Emperor’s throne room and zapped Palpatine? Oh yeah it takes 30 years to be able to do that but the movie doesn’t explain that.

people are arguing over the supposed rules, again.

excuse me for wanting the Star Wars universe to make sense, and not liking plotholes/continuity errors.

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Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

In ESB, Obiwan says that if Luke goes to face Vader he will face him alone, “I can not help you”. But look what Yoda did in TLJ. Sure seems like Obiwan could have lent a hand now.

He says “If you chose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere” . This wasn’t that he couldn’t do anything, but the fact that Luke had to face this challenge on his own. He was being warned that he needed to complete his training, but he refused to listen and needed to face the consequences and not feel that Obi-Wan could just come along and save his ass.

Well that makes Obiwan to be a real jerk. An incomplete Luke is going to face Darth f-ing Vader. He knows Luke is not ready. For he knew, Luke would have gotten killed and then things would really be up the shaft. He was the second to last hope for the galaxy and Obiwan is going to risk the whole galaxy just to teach Luke a lesson???

And don’t forget Obi-Wan’s line in ANH: “If you strike me down, i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” . Up until TLJ, the most we see a force ghost being able to do is interact with their surroundings by moving some twigs and sitting in a log. A force ghost being able to use that power has been there since day one.

I never understood the line as a kid, but when I grew up, understood it mean that he’d be more powerful as a martyr for the cause.

adywan gives one possible reading of why Obi Wan couldn’t interfere. I assumed there was some spiritual reason, like ghosts can’t get revenge, can’t use violence, or something.

As for Obi Wan’s line about becoming more powerful, I thought a spiritual reason there too - that a spirit is a more powerful being than a man. But the martyr idea is good too.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

In ESB, Obiwan says that if Luke goes to face Vader he will face him alone, “I can not help you”. But look what Yoda did in TLJ. Sure seems like Obiwan could have lent a hand now.

He says “If you chose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere” . This wasn’t that he couldn’t do anything, but the fact that Luke had to face this challenge on his own. He was being warned that he needed to complete his training, but he refused to listen and needed to face the consequences and not feel that Obi-Wan could just come along and save his ass.

Well that makes Obiwan to be a real jerk. An incomplete Luke is going to face Darth f-ing Vader. He knows Luke is not ready. For he knew, Luke would have gotten killed and then things would really be up the shaft. He was the second to last hope for the galaxy and Obiwan is going to risk the whole galaxy just to teach Luke a lesson???

And don’t forget Obi-Wan’s line in ANH: “If you strike me down, i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” . Up until TLJ, the most we see a force ghost being able to do is interact with their surroundings by moving some twigs and sitting in a log. A force ghost being able to use that power has been there since day one.

I never understood the line as a kid, but when I grew up, understood it mean that he’d be more powerful as a martyr for the cause.

adywan gives one possible reading of why Obi Wan couldn’t interfere. I assumed there was some spiritual reason, like ghosts can’t get revenge, can’t use violence, or something.

As for Obi Wan’s line about becoming more powerful, I thought a spiritual reason there too - that a spirit is a more powerful being than a man. But the martyr idea is good too.

Again the movie never explains adywan’s idea.

Would Obiwan’s reason for helping Luke fight Vader in ESB be revenge?

Yoda’s use of lightening sure seemed violent to me.

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Notice that Yoda didn’t conjure the lightning out of thin air. Plus it’s possible that Force Ghosts have more power in places that are powerful in the force.

Not to mention that Obi-wan doesn’t make it clear that he is physically unable to help. It can be easily interpreted to mean “this is a challenge you must face as an individual,” much like when Yoda had Luke go in the cave by himself.

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CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

why does everything need to be explained? Shouldn’t there be some mystery?

maybe not everything needs to be explained, but I do think if one force ghost can use force lightning and one can’t, that needs to be explained.

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DominicCobb said:

Notice that Yoda didn’t conjure the lightning out of thin air. Plus it’s possible that Force Ghosts have more power in places that are powerful in the force.

again it would have been nice if the movie had explained this.

Not to mention that Obi-wan doesn’t make it clear that he is physically unable to help. It can be easily interpreted to mean “this is a challenge you must face as an individual,” much like when Yoda had Luke go in the cave by himself.

read I wrote in previous post about this.

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Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

In ESB, Obiwan says that if Luke goes to face Vader he will face him alone, “I can not help you”. But look what Yoda did in TLJ. Sure seems like Obiwan could have lent a hand now.

He says “If you chose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere” . This wasn’t that he couldn’t do anything, but the fact that Luke had to face this challenge on his own. He was being warned that he needed to complete his training, but he refused to listen and needed to face the consequences and not feel that Obi-Wan could just come along and save his ass.

Well that makes Obiwan to be a real jerk. An incomplete Luke is going to face Darth f-ing Vader. He knows Luke is not ready. For he knew, Luke would have gotten killed and then things would really be up the shaft. He was the second to last hope for the galaxy and Obiwan is going to risk the whole galaxy just to teach Luke a lesson???

And don’t forget Obi-Wan’s line in ANH: “If you strike me down, i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” . Up until TLJ, the most we see a force ghost being able to do is interact with their surroundings by moving some twigs and sitting in a log. A force ghost being able to use that power has been there since day one.

I never understood the line as a kid, but when I grew up, understood it mean that he’d be more powerful as a martyr for the cause.

adywan gives one possible reading of why Obi Wan couldn’t interfere. I assumed there was some spiritual reason, like ghosts can’t get revenge, can’t use violence, or something.

As for Obi Wan’s line about becoming more powerful, I thought a spiritual reason there too - that a spirit is a more powerful being than a man. But the martyr idea is good too.

Again the movie never explains adywan’s idea.

Would Obiwan’s reason for helping Luke fight Vader in ESB be revenge?

Yoda’s use of lightening sure seemed violent to me.

I don’t agree with adywan, the movie does leave the reason unspecified. Dominic gives a plausible reason that I tend to agree with. Lightening is violent but Yoda does didnt commit an act of violence with it. On the revenge point, killing the guy who killed you may be antithetical to existence as a Force ghost.

The blue elephant in the room.

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How are we supposed to explain it in the film? A brief interlude with a soliloquy by Pablo Hidalgo ecplaining the continuity?

TV’s Frink said:

I would put this in my sig if I weren’t so lazy.

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CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

why does everything need to be explained? Shouldn’t there be some mystery?

That’s what I say when someone questions why I’m doing something. Doesn’t go over too well at work or at home.

The blue elephant in the room.

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CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

How are we supposed to explain it in the film? A brief interlude with a soliloquy by Pablo Hidalgo ecplaining the continuity?

Was that a horse or the guy in Rogue One? Either way I’m not sure if it would work.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

How are we supposed to explain it in the film? A brief interlude with a soliloquy by Pablo Hidalgo ecplaining the continuity?

Was that a horse or the guy in Rogue One? Either way I’m not sure if it would work.

He’s a guy who works at Lucasfilm and has a Twitter account.

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Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Maybe Yoda is just that strong even in death. Maybe being dead for 30 years powered him up. Maybe the temple location gives him more energy. Maybe it’s just a thing that wanted to do for fun and Obi-wan takes things too seriously. Maybe the the question isn’t why can he do this out of nowhere, but why shouldn’t he? There are so many options in a magical space fantasy and

again the movie never explains why Yoda can and Obiwan can’t. It never explains that it takes 30 years for him to be able to do what he did.

again I say don’t you think it would have been nice if Yoda after he died in ROTJ made an appearance in the Emperor’s throne room and zapped Palpatine? Oh yeah it takes 30 years to be able to do that but the movie doesn’t explain that.

people are arguing over the supposed rules, again.

excuse me for wanting the Star Wars universe to make sense, and not liking plotholes/continuity errors.

You’re excused.

What I offered were possibilities, because in the end it doesn’t matter at all.

Last time someone tried to provide exposition and explanations it was in Episode III: The Worst One Yet. Why does Old Ben only appear as a ghost in Empire and not before, maybe at Luke’s medal ceremony? If he can appear to Luke and give him directions why doesn’t he show up and tell Leia about the trap? How can he sit on a log when before he was just kinda floating? All these answers and more in the next exciting chapter of just try and relax it doesn’t make any difference.

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Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

In ESB, Obiwan says that if Luke goes to face Vader he will face him alone, “I can not help you”. But look what Yoda did in TLJ. Sure seems like Obiwan could have lent a hand now.

He says “If you chose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere” . This wasn’t that he couldn’t do anything, but the fact that Luke had to face this challenge on his own. He was being warned that he needed to complete his training, but he refused to listen and needed to face the consequences and not feel that Obi-Wan could just come along and save his ass.

Well that makes Obiwan to be a real jerk. An incomplete Luke is going to face Darth f-ing Vader. He knows Luke is not ready. For he knew, Luke would have gotten killed and then things would really be up the shaft. He was the second to last hope for the galaxy and Obiwan is going to risk the whole galaxy just to teach Luke a lesson???

And don’t forget Obi-Wan’s line in ANH: “If you strike me down, i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” . Up until TLJ, the most we see a force ghost being able to do is interact with their surroundings by moving some twigs and sitting in a log. A force ghost being able to use that power has been there since day one.

I never understood the line as a kid, but when I grew up, understood it mean that he’d be more powerful as a martyr for the cause.

adywan gives one possible reading of why Obi Wan couldn’t interfere. I assumed there was some spiritual reason, like ghosts can’t get revenge, can’t use violence, or something.

As for Obi Wan’s line about becoming more powerful, I thought a spiritual reason there too - that a spirit is a more powerful being than a man. But the martyr idea is good too.

Again the movie never explains adywan’s idea.

Would Obiwan’s reason for helping Luke fight Vader in ESB be revenge?

Yoda’s use of lightening sure seemed violent to me.

I don’t agree with adywan, the movie does leave the reason unspecified. Dominic gives a plausible reason that I tend to agree with.

Dominic’s reason is not explained in the movie.

Lightening is violent but Yoda does didnt commit an act of violence with it.

He didn’t? He set a building on fire.

On the revenge point, killing the guy who killed you may be antithetical to existence as a Force ghost.

again this is not explained in the movie.

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CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

How are we supposed to explain it in the film? A brief interlude with a soliloquy by Pablo Hidalgo ecplaining the continuity?

It is called expository dialogue.

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Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

In ESB, Obiwan says that if Luke goes to face Vader he will face him alone, “I can not help you”. But look what Yoda did in TLJ. Sure seems like Obiwan could have lent a hand now.

He says “If you chose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere” . This wasn’t that he couldn’t do anything, but the fact that Luke had to face this challenge on his own. He was being warned that he needed to complete his training, but he refused to listen and needed to face the consequences and not feel that Obi-Wan could just come along and save his ass.

Well that makes Obiwan to be a real jerk. An incomplete Luke is going to face Darth f-ing Vader. He knows Luke is not ready. For he knew, Luke would have gotten killed and then things would really be up the shaft. He was the second to last hope for the galaxy and Obiwan is going to risk the whole galaxy just to teach Luke a lesson???

And don’t forget Obi-Wan’s line in ANH: “If you strike me down, i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” . Up until TLJ, the most we see a force ghost being able to do is interact with their surroundings by moving some twigs and sitting in a log. A force ghost being able to use that power has been there since day one.

I never understood the line as a kid, but when I grew up, understood it mean that he’d be more powerful as a martyr for the cause.

adywan gives one possible reading of why Obi Wan couldn’t interfere. I assumed there was some spiritual reason, like ghosts can’t get revenge, can’t use violence, or something.

As for Obi Wan’s line about becoming more powerful, I thought a spiritual reason there too - that a spirit is a more powerful being than a man. But the martyr idea is good too.

Again the movie never explains adywan’s idea.

Would Obiwan’s reason for helping Luke fight Vader in ESB be revenge?

Yoda’s use of lightening sure seemed violent to me.

I don’t agree with adywan, the movie does leave the reason unspecified. Dominic gives a plausible reason that I tend to agree with.

Dominic’s reason is not explained in the movie.

Lightening is violent but Yoda does didnt commit an act of violence with it.

He didn’t? He set a building on fire.

On the revenge point, killing the guy who killed you may be antithetical to existence as a Force ghost.

again this is not explained in the movie.

  1. True. I said it was unspecified.
  2. He didn’t hurt anyone.
  3. True. I said “may be.”

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mocata said:

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Maybe Yoda is just that strong even in death. Maybe being dead for 30 years powered him up. Maybe the temple location gives him more energy. Maybe it’s just a thing that wanted to do for fun and Obi-wan takes things too seriously. Maybe the the question isn’t why can he do this out of nowhere, but why shouldn’t he? There are so many options in a magical space fantasy and

again the movie never explains why Yoda can and Obiwan can’t. It never explains that it takes 30 years for him to be able to do what he did.

again I say don’t you think it would have been nice if Yoda after he died in ROTJ made an appearance in the Emperor’s throne room and zapped Palpatine? Oh yeah it takes 30 years to be able to do that but the movie doesn’t explain that.

people are arguing over the supposed rules, again.

excuse me for wanting the Star Wars universe to make sense, and not liking plotholes/continuity errors.

You’re excused.

What I offered were possibilities, because in the end it doesn’t matter at all.

Last time someone tried to provide exposition and explanations it was in Episode III: The Worst One Yet. Why does Old Ben only appear as a ghost in Empire and not before, maybe at Luke’s medal ceremony?

He didn’t need to.

If he can appear to Luke and give him directions why doesn’t he show up and tell Leia about the trap?

I suppose this is a good question.

How can he sit on a log when before he was just kinda floating? All these answers and more in the next exciting chapter of just try and relax it doesn’t make any difference.

somethings need to be explained somethings don’t. When force ghosts can now do something they couldn’t do before, it requires an explanation. If in the next movie Han Solo(in the flesh, not a ghost) suddenly walks into a room, don’t you think that would require an explanation.

because in the end it doesn’t matter at all.

it doesn’t make any difference

to you.