Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Items' Thread & other unintended objects — Page 2

BTW, looking at the V8 again - what is with the additional damage? If the JSC was sourced from the '85 new IP (which, correct me if I'm wrong, was made from the negative while it was still in usable condition?), why is there new damage, like the weird spots when Luke turns on his lightsaber when he has the blast helmet on? What is that, water damage? Some kind of warping?

That particular damage does not appear on any of the pre-ANH bootlegs, or Puggo's transfers, or the Technidisc SWE, or the DC/GOUT. I'd expect a new IP to be cleaner. Was it actually transferred from a dupe made from the IP, and it got mucked up when it was being developed? Confusing...

OK, so then the term "1985 IP" is a misnomer. Still curious as to the origins of the 80s IPs...

Coupla thoughts (apologies if I missed these being mentioned already):

The shot is an optical. The "camera shake" is fake. It is possible the orange errors were introduced when creating the shake, and, perhaps, the shake was redone at a later date...perhaps after discovering an IP/N they were using was sans optical. (?)  This kind of effect would likely be done at the same time as wipes and fades--by chance have we ever come across any redone wipes or fades prior to the SE that might suggest a time that the shake could've been redone as well? In any event, this would've been redone along with all the wipes and fades for the SE, which explains framing inconsistencies.

The errors are not a negative tear...or at least, not a single one. A single tear would be at the bottom of one frame and at the top of the next. These errors are inconsistent with that. They are two separate errors on subsequent frames.

The "camera shake" is just gate weave, either from making the optical or just from the telecine. Since the spot is black, that means it doesn't come from a negative source (those show as white), so I would guess that transfers with that come from the same IP or the same print from the IP.

If the shake was an optical effect, the orange errors were not introduced with it. Comparing the JSC V8 and Technidisc SWE in slo-mo, the shake effect is exactly the same, frame for frame. If it were redone, there would be some visual difference in the effect, since the "law of human error" dictates that if this kind of optical shake effect were redone, there would be a much higher probability that there'd be some kind of difference than that it would look *exactly* the same.

Since it does look exactly the same except for the orange errors, I have to conclude that the effect was not redone; the same footage is on both.

Those frames were obviously screwed up somewhere on the path to the IP that was used to make the theatrical prints, and from which the dupier-looking IP used for the DC/GOUT was derived.

I still can't figure out whether the 1980s IP was directly derived from the O-neg. It is certainly sharper than the source used for the '93 Technidisc SWE/DC/GOUT, and it also has more horizontal information and a little more vertical info as well. The two IPs also have different-looking glue marks on the splices.

The reason why I'm skeptical that the 80s IP was *directly* derived from the negative is because of some additional damage I see on the JSC, like the weird translucent blobs scrolling up the right side of the frame after Luke puts on the blast helmet, when Ben says "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them" and when Luke turns on his saber (I mentioned this before - they almost look like water damage). It is not negative damage, because it's dark, not light. I can't tell if that problem was on the preceding generation, whether it was due to the lab screwing up while making the IP, or whether the damage occurred to the IP after it was developed. Do those blobs appear on that scene on any of the video releases prior to the JSC?

As far as I can tell, the same IP was used for all video releases between 1982-92, even if it was telecined multiple times. If this is the "1985 IP", it wasn't actually made in 1985. If there was a new IP made in 1985, it must not have been ever used for video (and the 1985 complete-trilogy limited reissue used existing prints, right?). Using none's site, there seems to have been the P&S telecine used on the '82 VHS/Beta and the '85 LD (also shown on CBS), the time-compressed P&S telecine used on the '82 LD and CED (also shown on HBO), and a different P&S telecine on the '92 LD dark_jedi preserved (the cropping is shifted a bit to the left, and the corridor walls don't have as much of a pinkish-brownish tinge as the VHS/Beta/'85 LD. I don't see enough visual difference to suggest it came from a different film source, though.

At some point, it'd be interesting to do a visual comparison of EVERY SW video release, P&S versions included. Anybody got the 1987 and 1990/92 P&S VHS releases?

(ulp)  I was going by memory. Stop that, Tread.

I'll look again...

I wonder...did the orange errors show up on any of the pre-1993 video releases in France, Germany or Spain? I ask because those countries had the episode-less foreign crawls on video until the 90s. If the orange errors showed up on any European video releases prior to the THX versions, it might help crack the mystery of the origin of the IPs used for the DC/GOUT. I think they might have been sourced from subtitle-less IPs used to make the INs for certain foreign markets - or more likely dupes made from said IPs, which would account for the excessive grain, as well as the accumulated dirt and damage from the overuse of the first-gen elements. (The levels of grain on the GOUT are strong evidence that these were not first-gen elements - zombie and others have said this before.)

I'm not sure which foreign markets got "clean" versions. I can assume that France and Germany did. The old Spanish video releases had the episode-less Spanish crawl, but -1 has a Spanish print with an English crawl, credits, and probably alien subtitles too, and the PuggoKrig print is obviously just the English version with Swedish subs superimposed.

I really think that we need to start doing visual comparisons of dirt and damage between sources, including pre-THX continental European releases. I know the Technidisc LD shows more orange marks in other scenes, such as the last shot of the binary sunset sequence right before the wipe, which are not on any other copies I've seen.

Ouch, that's really blue ...

negative1 wrote: here are some of the actual frames from the 35mm theatrical print:

Thanks these are very informative.  Interesting to see that the second item (to the right of R2) continues into the third frame which we hadn't identified before.  Was the fourth pic provided to show us an unaffected frame?  or am I missing a fourth item.

Wiki's got a 35mm frame at about 1 3/8" in width.  The first two items almost appear as opposite sides of a circle's circumference.  So these items make a diameter of half an inch.  was thinking maybe a pencil eraser was pressed into film and that caused the shift as the emulsion was wet and slick.  but this diameter is double a normal pencil.  is closer to a finger's width.

Updated the Guide with danny_boy's 1982 VHS PAL UK & 1977 35mm negative1

http://fd.noneinc.com/Glitch/starwars-tantiveorangeerrors/starwars-tantiveorangeerrors.html

Now need to go through and pull out the third frame for all these.