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Info Wanted: Some questions about converting vinyl records to digital....

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I thought my first attempt at doing this was an epic fail, so I want to pose some questions to anybody out there that is “in the know.”

My biggest enemy was “needle noise.”  No matter what I tried, the VU meter still showed it.  I know that it cannot be totally silent like a tape or CD, but I really thought that, especially with the expensive equipment I bought (and returned because of it), that it could somehow be defeated.  Does anyone have any ideas?  Software?  Hardware?  Equipment?

Also, I used a professional preamp mixer.  I thought for sure that since it was “overqualified” for the job, the needle noise would be manageable.  I was wrong.  It only highlighted it even more because of the increased fidelity.  So, does anyone recommend a particular preamp?

Lastly, here is a link to the system that I bought:

http://www.dak.com/reviews/2020story.cfm?Ref=MSN&PM=LPtCD&Srh=usb_turntable

And here is a link to a new cable by Alesis.  I have NOT tried it, but thought it was of interest:

http://www.pssl.com/!XGpYL-n!XRycqSFWCgsVWQ!/Alesis-PhonoLink-Stereo-RCA-Phono-to-USB-Cable-s?AID=10404878&PID=2007032&SID=46002

So, I would really appreciate ANY positive input, recommendations, links, advice, pictures, etc. about this.  I really want to give it a go again someday, and I have some great vinyl for it, but I want to be more educated for the next attempt.

Thanks for reading!

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Adobe Audition is good software for vinyl rips.  Cleaning the vinyl prior to capturing also helps greatly as it helps minimalize the noise.  A well grounded turntable is also a plus. 

These are basic suggestions.  I hope they help some.

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Yeah, I know that grounding is essential, and my vinyl is borderline immaculate, some of which hasn't even been played yet.

As far as Adobe Audition, thanks for the tip.  I'll look into it.  Does it have any settings or effects or filters specifically for vinyl?

Do your rips have needle noise?

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Usually just the basic pop, click, and such.  Adobe Audition happens to have a variety of filters for audio restoration.

For clicks/pops, I suggest ClickRepair.  It's probably one of the finer automated ways to clean up those noises. 

I also use an external sound card to minimize noise from the PC case.  EMU 0202 by Creative.  It does 24/96 easily.  In my recording line I have a custom tube pre-amp for the assist.  Let me see if I can dig up some links for you.

:)

Just a heads up....when it comes to pristine vinyl.  The grooves can hold junk that won't show up on the surface even if they've been kept hidden away.  A good brushing and Gruv Glide II can even help things out....this is just an fyi. 

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What the condition of your needle? I'm sure a new one wouldn't hurt.

“I love Darth Editous and I’m not ashamed to admit it.” ~ADigitalMan

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boba feta said:

What the condition of your needle? I'm sure a new one wouldn't hurt.

He sent the kit he bought back to DAK.  It is possible that the equipment was defective....maybe the cartridge....electronic equipment is sooooo sensitive...it can even be fubar'd prior to shipping.

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Yeah, the DAK equipment was all brand new.  I returned the first preamp mixer (which connected directly to my sound card's 3/5 mm jack, by the way) because I thought the problem was there, but it wasn't.  I returned the whole schmere.

As for Adobe Audition, I checked it out and it seems pretty similar to ACID Pro, which is my program of choice.  The only problem I had with the equipment and ACID Pro was the needle noise.  I used DAK's DePopper for a filter.  It worked really well, but some of the feedback I received suggested that it was effecting the quality of the music.  I didn't really think so, but it was enough for me to close up shop and send the gear back.

Oh and yes, I cleaned all my vinyl prior to use, even if it was just opened.  I have a special cloth, and I also kept the DAK record cleaner that also does away with static.

Here's a list of all the programs I used:

Sony ACID Pro

DAK DePopper 3

Acoustica Spin It Again

I think sometimes that maybe I expected too much and my recordings were as good as it gets, but I just don't know.  You can only get so much silence from a fine piece of metal being dragged across a piece of plastic, I suppose.  Maybe I'll order the DAK setup again someday, unless the discussion here leads me elsewhere.  I'm wondering also, even if I do use that setup again, if getting the RCA to USB cable might yield better results than plugging into the sound card.  The thing is, I think that cable converts at 16 bit only.

Also, DePopper has a setting called "Pulley Turntable" that seemed to help with how loud the needle noise registered, but I thought it was effecting the music.  Of course my turntable wasn't a pulley system, but there you have it.

 

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Using a stand alone CD burner along with a turntable might yield better results for you and then you could take the audio to your PC and tweak it there.

When I record, I never let the audio clip.  I try to keep the process as simple as possible....it helps me narrow down issues if I'm having them.

:)

It sounds like you keep good care of your stuff so that's straight.  Even though the equipment was new it doesn't mean that nothing was wrong upon arrival.  The possibility is still there. 

Expensive equipment doesn't always mean awesome transfer.... anyone pushing that is delirious for sure.  Maybe you should do a little recon at local thrift stores and see what kind of turntables you find, you'd be surprised what you can find for cheap.  

 

 

 

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I've considered that, believe you me!  The problem with that is, you always wind up having to get a new cartridge because I sure as hell wouldn't trust a used one.  The DAK set offers it all new, but of course the trouble could have been the turntable itself.  Shipping sensitive equipment can definitely lead to a problem all too easily.

Jetrell, how would you rate your recordings on needle noise?  Is it just one of those things that you put up with?  On mine, it wasn't audible unless of course I cranked the volume all the way up, but like I said, it was on the recordings and registered on the meter.

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Couldn't you just run a denoise filter with a sample of the noise?

“I love Darth Editous and I’m not ashamed to admit it.” ~ADigitalMan

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I have no idea, that's why I started this thread.  If you can direct me to some software or something, please do!

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Well I don't know about your software but in Adobe Audition you just go Effects-NoiseReduction-Capture Noise Reduction Profile, then when you have your sample, just load it up from the Noise Reduction tab.

“I love Darth Editous and I’m not ashamed to admit it.” ~ADigitalMan

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Have a look a ClickRepair and DeNoise.  Found here:

http://www.clickrepair.net/

 

It's the best software for fixing these problems.

If I had some gum, I’d chew a hole into the sun…

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JediTray, some things that come to mind (which you already may have thought of/taken care of), but just in case:

Are you using a MM or MC cartridge? Some phono preamps don't have enough output for an MC cartridge and you'll get A LOT of noise.

Also, if the preamp doesn't specify "phono" it won't have enough output to compensate for the phono's low level, and you'll get a lot of noise (unless your turntable has a built-in phono pre-amp then forget what I said about that). :-P

I use the same set-up Jetrell Fo uses (a CD recorder and turntable hooked up to a stereo receiver) and I've had great results.

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boba feta said:

Well I don't know about your software but in Adobe Audition you just go Effects-NoiseReduction-Capture Noise Reduction Profile, then when you have your sample, just load it up from the Noise Reduction tab.

 Thanks for the tip.  I will definitely play with that once I have equipment again.

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Mielr said:

JediTray, some things that come to mind (which you already may have thought of/taken care of), but just in case:

Are you using a MM or MC cartridge? Some phono preamps don't have enough output for an MC cartridge and you'll get A LOT of noise.

 Well, I used what DAK provided, which was a GliPro elliptical diamond stylus with magnetic cartridge.

Here's a link that shows detailed closeup pics:

http://www.dak.com/reviews/2020pics.cfm  

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Jetrell Fo said:


Using a stand alone CD burner along with a turntable might yield better results for you and then you could take the audio to your PC and tweak it there.

When I record, I never let the audio clip....


That's what I do too- I've had good results. When you say you never let the audio "clip" do you mean you never let it go into the red?

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Mielr said:

Also, if the preamp doesn't specify "phono" it won't have enough output to compensate for the phono's low level, and you'll get a lot of noise (unless your turntable has a built-in phono pre-amp then forget what I said about that). :-P

I use the same set-up Jetrell Fo uses (a CD recorder and turntable hooked up to a stereo receiver) and I've had great results.

The preamp mixer, also in the pics at the link above, was specifically designed for phono.  It is grounded as well.

I lost my home theater in the divorce, so I don't have the means to go the receiver route unless I want to buy it, a recorder, and a turntable.  What do you do, just record via the receiver, then do your tweaking with the resulting files from the CD?

***EDIT***

I see it was answered.  :)

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JediTray said:


Mielr said:

JediTray, some things that come to mind (which you already may have thought of/taken care of), but just in case:

Are you using a MM or MC cartridge? Some phono preamps don't have enough output for an MC cartridge and you'll get A LOT of noise.


 Well, I used what DAK provided, which was a GliPro elliptical diamond stylus with magnetic cartridge.

Here's a link that shows detailed closeup pics:

*LINK*


Wow that's a lot of info! The 78rpm converter feature is nice....
The magnetic cartridge should be fine (Audio Technica?), so that's probably not the problem. If it's happening with all your records (even the ones in good condition), then something is definitely amiss with the equipment. If you could post some audio clips that would be very helpful, to see if we hear the same thing you're hearing. Like you said- LPs can only be so quiet, maybe you've become unaccustomed to the inherent noise.

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JediTray said:

I lost my home theater in the divorce, so I don't have the means to go the receiver route unless I want to buy it, a recorder, and a turntable.  What do you do, just record via the receiver, then do your tweaking with the resulting files from the CD?

***EDIT***

I see it was answered.  :)


I see now that it's a whole integrated system. I'm curious if you'd get different results without the computer involved in the recording process, but I guess that's not an option for you right now.

Yeah, I'm in the process of converting a lot of LPs and audio cassettes to CD thru my stereo receiver. My cassette deck came with a built-in digital noise filter (Pioneer CT-05D) which helps a lot with the cassettes as most of them are 30+ years old and were recorded without any type of Dolby. I haven't done any tweaking at all with the LP recordings yet, and I may not if I don't have any major problems with pops and clicks.

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Oh, I'm a 70's child and I know all about LP's.  :)  I'm just trying to gather as much info as possible to see if I can defeat the noise before attempting to do it again.  I deleted all the recordings I made out of frustration, except a couple records by Sprawl (WAV) and The Cure (FLAC).

Here's a sampling, two tracks from each:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TLQUI9W4

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Mielr said:

 

Jetrell Fo said:


Using a stand alone CD burner along with a turntable might yield better results for you and then you could take the audio to your PC and tweak it there.

When I record, I never let the audio clip....


That's what I do too- I've had good results. When you say you never let the audio "clip" do you mean you never let it go into the red?

 

Correct............

:)

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Mielr said:

 


JediTray said:

I lost my home theater in the divorce, so I don't have the means to go the receiver route unless I want to buy it, a recorder, and a turntable.  What do you do, just record via the receiver, then do your tweaking with the resulting files from the CD?

***EDIT***

I see it was answered.  :)


I see now that it's a whole integrated system. I'm curious if you'd get different results without the computer involved in the recording process, but I guess that's not an option for you right now.

Yeah, I'm in the process of converting a lot of LPs and audio cassettes to CD thru my stereo receiver. My cassette deck came with a built-in digital noise filter (Pioneer CT-05D) which helps a lot with the cassettes as most of them are 30+ years old and were recorded without any type of Dolby. I haven't done any tweaking at all with the LP recordings yet, and I may not if I don't have any major problems with pops and clicks.

 

Be careful, it's always a possibility that your receiver may be re-sampling your audio signal.

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JediTray said:

Oh, I'm a 70's child and I know all about LP's.  :)  I'm just trying to gather as much info as possible to see if I can defeat the noise before attempting to do it again.  I deleted all the recordings I made out of frustration, except a couple records by Sprawl (WAV) and The Cure (FLAC).

Here's a sampling, two tracks from each:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TLQUI9W4

I downloaded this and looked at "Primary" in wav format using Adobe Audition....your recording level is a bit high....I noticed clipping all the way through the track...that could cause issue as well.

I find it best to record no higher than maybe somewhere between -6 to -3 decibels....it's far simpler to give it a boost then try to bring it down and still have it sound pleasing.

:)

 

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I'm afraid for decent LP to digital transfers one must forget those USB turntables. You really need to do research into proper hi-fi decks using sites like www.vinylengine.com and http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/ as well as others.

The mistake MANY people make is using an average turntable, a cheap needle and then expecting miracle results by using software to 'fix' the noise and problems. This WILL NOT result in a decent sounding transfer. It's FAR better to get a very good deck and cartridge, into an average soundcard and do little to no digital tweaking to get the purest sound. Many people use shitty decks, and good soundcards expecting miracles - I'm afraid this won't work.

All turntables are not the same, and you need to spend money to get good sound from them unfortunately. At the VERY least - and we are talking a budget deck here - you need to look at something like a Rega P3 turntable and a Rega or Goldring cartridge. If you want better sound go on to something like a Michell Gyrodec, though those are considerably more expensive. When I did the original 7FN transfers I used a Garrard 301 which is a 50s deck and is still considered one of the very best even today once serviced. To get a deck that good today you'd need to spend around £2000...

Of course one can go second-hand to get good sound - look at decks like Thorens TD150 or Technics SL-10 for reasonably priced superb decks, and ask on hi-fi forums about decent cartridges. LP is INCREDIBLY sensitive and is not like CD. Pops, clicks and rumble CAN be almost non existant with a decent deck and cartridge (and a clean record of course!). Unfortunately many cheap decks emphasise the faults of vinyl. You need the most expensive deck you can possibly get to get decent sound. It needs to be setup correctly too which means decent support shelves which stop vibration getting to the sensitive needle. Cartridge aligned properly which is an artform in itself. Again this costs money. There is no cheap way around this unfortunately. People spend thousands on turntables to get decent sound.

Next you need a decent phono-stage (plugging a turntable into a normal input you'll get very faint sound. You need a special stage to correct this). Again cheap stages = cheap sound. You need to spend at least £50 as a bare minimum to get a decent sound. I use a Trichord Dino + and even this is considered by many to be a budget item...!

The last thing is the vinyl itself. You need to search for a mint pressing. And once you have one you need to get it professionally cleaned (Google is your friend here - google Keith Monks or Nitty Gritty cleaners). I was lucky to get a brand new, sealed pressing of Empire recently and I'll be using that for 7FN v.2 transfers at some point in the future. After buying 3 copies of Star Wars I have one I am happy with now and will be using that also.

There really is no substitute for a decent deck, and I hope the above has been of some help. Lastly, here's a few links of decent turntable manufacturers with decks that don't cost tooooo much:

http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

http://www.project-audio.com/

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/featureshtml/turntableroundup.html

http://www.decks.co.uk/products/technics/sl1200

Remember: Deck first, Arm/cartridge second, Phono-stage third, digital processing (if any) LAST! Not the other way around. Digital trickery cannot be a substitute for the original sound with a decent turntable...

Happy spinning!