StarThoughts said:
I just want to bring up that the original Image laserdisc had a beefed-up audio track that I don't believe has been replicated on any other release.
Too true. Too few sound remixes can match the dynamics of Laserdisc PCM. My SUSPIRIA Hybrid DVD with the old PCM LD sound still kills any of the DTS remixes. No contest.
Matt_Stevens said:
I don't want added grain. *sigh* That's just added noise because it isn't real.
We need a proper Blu-Ray. If they screw that one up, well then we have to do what we can.
bigrob, I hope that's true and that next year we will see just such a release.
Personally, I would disagree with the first statement (just my opinion). If I have a choice between two clips, one DNR'd to hell and the other with suitable grain added back in, I will always choose the later.
There was a document floating around here a while ago taking about the effects of grain on the perceived image which was really interesting.
I also totally agree that there needs to be a proper release of this movie. I'm watching the Criterion DVD right now as a matter of fact :D A nice coincidence!
Lowry do it all the time and "everyone" loves how Aliens looks
The Sony disc like Ghostbusters was sharpened and contrast boosted that amplified any grain there, not added any
There is no evidence that Lowry erased grain and put fake grain back in. That is pure conjecture. No one has ever shown proof. And not for one moment do I believe James Cameron would accept that. Come on now.
Lowry is not Blue Underground.
The contrast boosted GHOSTBUSTERS BluRay was a complete disaster and has since been shamed by the new 4k master released on Blu and it looks so so much better.
Of course, to each their own. :)
It was on their website for like 3 years actually.......
Plus Robert Harris said the Bond movies had the wrong vintage grain
Plus DNR removes noise, grain = noise to the machine, they cannot just magic it back
Plus Cameron said they removed the grain
And who said the OG ghostbusters disc was better?? you are all over the place buddy
The Criterion laserdisc audio is better representative of the theatrical soundtrack, but the Orion laserdisc audio was more aggressive. If the theatrical version is going to be preserved, it might be a worthy audio option. Unfortunately, I don't know anybody who has that disc anymore.
“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”
dvdmike said:
It was on their website for like 3 years actually.......
Plus Robert Harris said the Bond movies had the wrong vintage grain
Plus DNR removes noise, grain = noise to the machine, they cannot just magic it back
Plus Cameron said they removed the grain
And who said the OG ghostbusters disc was better?? you are all over the place buddy
Please point me to a link.
How am I all over the place? It is well known that the GHOSTBUSTERS BluRay was a disaster of contrast boosting. It's one reason why it was redone. Massive thread on this at AVS with the new BD being talked about on the last page.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1156395/ghostbusters-comparison-pix/180
DNR can reduce or remove grain. I sat in on a session as my 16mm short film was being worked on and ultimately decided not to remove any grain (because I liked it) but no doubt there were different levels of reduction. From minimal, all the way to full on grain rape.
I will say it again... Taking a currently released Blu-Ray and adding grain to it is just adding noise. To each their own by I think it's a mistake. I'll wait to next year and see what happens.
Moth3r said:
Space Kaijuu said:
I have the video done. The HDTV rip matches the Sony blu-ray, color-wise, but has the additional footage, so I used that with some minor enhancements.
As far as the HD trailers, I was considering remastering the trailers in HD myself, if I decide to go that route.
Wasn't there an earlier theatrical trailer that used the Terminator theme, as the Robocop music hadn't been written yet?
Yes. It's on YouTube.
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Matt_Stevens said:
I will say it again... Taking a currently released Blu-Ray and adding grain to it is just adding noise.
To state that adding grain is just adding noise may be technically correct but it's a gross over-simplification in terms of how added grain can create the appearance of more or enhanced detail.
A great example is this comparison shot from emanswfan's 70mm Filmized Concept project:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/39951
To simply dismiss the benefits of this kind of enhancement (carefully applied) is just foolish, particularly when trying to recreate the look of film in a source that has been DNR'd.
And yes, Cameron stated in an interview that all the grain had been completely scrubbed from the new Aliens master, so it's a reasonable assumption that the grain visible in the current BD has been added.
George creates Star Wars.
Star Wars creates fans.
George destroys Star Wars.
Fans destroy George.
Fans create Star Wars.
Both Trailers for RoboCop can be found at movie-list.com's dedicated Trailer page.
The Teaser was included on the Blu-ray in HD, but the Trailer wasn't even included. It can only be found on the DVD (Criterion & MGM).
You can download the HD Teaser here.
Again, I'd like to see an actual quote from Cameron. A link. No one has ever provided me with one when I ask. If he said it, then please, let me see it so I can put Cameron in the fruitloop category.
dvdmike said:
Plus DNR removes noise, grain = noise to the machine, they cannot just magic it back
I thought the whole point of DNR was for removing grain.
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NO NO NO!!! DNR is supposed to be used conservatively to remove spots on frames. Dirt, damage, etc. It was then found it can be used to remove grain and they went hog wild with it.
During the days of DVD it was no big deal. You couldn't really see grain all that defined. But with High Def the grain is visible. Some nimrod with a DNR dial and a crack pipe can then remove the grain, which results in wax dummies for actors.
DNR can be used properly to clean up certain shots that have more grain than the shots surrounding it. Films like CLASH OF THE TITANS can benefit from this. The British HIGHLANDER BluRay has a little too much DNR for my tastes, but it certainly wasn't a wax job and certain shots that were not exposed correctly and had huge grain are now minimized and match the shots before and after.
But then look at THE GOOD THE BAD & THE UGLY and you see DNR cranked way up, ruining the image. Meanwhile FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE looks incredible because they did not liberally apply DNR. It's night and damned day.
The Criterion IN THE MOOD FOR LOVE had some DNR properly applied. The grain structure is defined and looks exactly like film. I've had the pleasure of seeing that film privately on a large screen in 35mm (here in NYC) and the BluRay is as close as one can hope to get to the look of capturing what was on the print.
And again, I saw what DNR could do on my own Super16 short film. There is no question that DNR can help a transfer when those behind the dial know what they are doing and why.
Matt_Stevens said:
Again, I'd like to see an actual quote from Cameron. A link. No one has ever provided me with one when I ask. If he said it, then please, let me see it so I can put Cameron in the fruitloop category.
Who have you been asking? The link was posted on AVS in 2010.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1258568/alien-anthology/450#post_19056182
http://cms.springboard.gorillanation.com/embed_code_lightbox/index/71/single/184853/cs002/10/420/340/0/false/source/
"I just did a complete remaster of Aliens. Personally. With the same colorist that I worked with on Avatar. And it's spectacular. We went in and we completely denoised and degrained it, uprezzed it, color-corrected it, end-to-end, every frame... it looks amazing. It looks better than it looked in theaters... originally. 'Cause it was shot on a high-speed negative that was a new negative that didn't pan out too well and got replaced the following year, so it was pretty grainy. We got rid of all the grain. It's sharper and clearer and more beautiful than it's ever looked. And we did that to the long version, to the 'director's cut' or the 'extended play', ya know. I call it the FM mix."
Well there is no video to play. So I don't know exactly what he said.
But he could mean the grain was minimized, which it was. NO DOUBT! That film was grain to the max. And the BluRay is not. But it still has grain and it looks like it was given DNR to reduce that grain. That is what DNR can do. I have seen it with my own eyes on my own films.
There is still ZERO evidence that the grain was removed and then fake grain was added. I am waiting to see that. When I do, I'll say OK.
There is no quote from Cameron that they regrained it, so you'll never accept any deduction based on what he did say.
I edited my post with the direct link grabbed from the source. Skip to 5:43. Quite apart from "minimizing", he literally says that they fully removed the grain, twice:
"completely denoised and degrained it"... "we got rid of all the grain"
There is also his insane "uprezzed" word choice that helps nothing.
More insane is his choice of the word color-"corrected" to describe all that teal!
Cameron has been in my fruitloop category for a long while. Ever since the days when he was touting pan-and-scan over widescreen I've known he has no regard for preserving the theatrical look of his movies.
George creates Star Wars.
Star Wars creates fans.
George destroys Star Wars.
Fans destroy George.
Fans create Star Wars.
guys, you are running of course. your discussion has no longer something to do with robocop. it's always interesting how each one thinks about dnr, but this should belong in it's own thread.
Matt_Stevens said:
DNR is supposed to be used conservatively to remove spots on frames. Dirt, damage, etc.
Well, you learn something new every day =)
Or maybe I'm just confusing DNR with DVNR again =|
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I have two versions of the DC cut of ROBOCOP: one has a more bluish tint to it and the other is less saturated... or at least I think I still have them. Let me rummage through my hard drives to double check to see if I have them. If I do, I'll post some screen caps...
“You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”
– Homer Simpson
Looking through my collection on the weekend I found it interesting that like the Criterion edition, the Orion edition also has a better all-round picture than the later DVD/Blu-ray releases. The two transfers may be the oldest, but are possibly the most accurate.
Criterion:
US Orion:
THe MGM DVD looks like the Sony Blu
The Criterion DVD looks like the MGM Blu
dvdmike said:
THe MGM DVD looks like the Sony Blu
The Criterion DVD looks like the MGM Blu
Yes, I believe that is somewhat true. The Criterion has a better contrast compared to the MGM Blu-ray and shares some similarities on overall look, but is still not quite the same. There is some blue in the Criterion in parts, which are not seen in the MGM blu-ray.
I think possibly the most ideal look would be a combination of the Orion and Criterion transfers.
still prefer the 1.66:1 OAR of the criterion edition in all honesty
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bigrob said:
still prefer the 1.66:1 OAR of the criterion edition in all honesty
Same here. Yesterday I was playing my 16:9 rip I made and still looks good to me. I love the graininess.
The Criterion LD audio rip would be a nice addition though. This movie has one of my favourite movie soundtracks!