logo Sign In

Revenge of the Sith: Awful message

Author
Time

In Revenge of the Sith, Anakin goes to Yoda about his visions of Padme dying (he doesn't tell Yoda it's Padme but he does admit it's somone close to him). He's afraid of losing Padme. Yoda says that fear of loss is a path to the dark side. He says death is a natural part of life and that you should rejoice for people who die and not mourn them and not miss them. He says that attachment leads to jealousy and that's the shadow of greed.

The message of this is that being atttached to people is bad. If you're attached to people you'll be afraid of losing them and that will lead to the dark side. The film seems to agree with Yoda's viewpoint, because Anakin turns dark as a result of his fear of Padme's death. So ROTS is effectively saying he turned evil because of love, love is bad, you shouldn't love or be attached to people.

What a screwed up message. This is Star Wars?

 

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I believe it is based on Bhuddist philosophy.  Since it is based on eastern religion and not something known to those in the western canon unless you are a convert or study that it would appear weird.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Is it Bhuddist philosophy or is it George Lucas's version of Bhuddist philosophy? I strongly disagree with any viewpoint that says attachment to other human beings is bad.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

My take on it:
It's the difference between selfish and selfless 'love'.
Being IN love (desire/attraction) can lead to obsession/jealousy/controlling etc. - selfish feelings.
"I need you", "Don't leave me" - by definition also selfish sentiments.
Jedi should love, but in a selfless way. Or, "If you love someone, set them free"...

The Monkey King - Uproar In heaven (1965) Restoration/Preservation Project

Nezha Conquers the Dragon King (1979) BBC 1.66:1 & Theatrical 2.35:1 preservations

Author
Time

I think the Jedi are patterned after celibate priests more than anything in bhuddist philosophy. I think the whole thing with catholic priests and nuns being celibate was the idea that no person should be more important than God.

Author
Time

ROTS and the prequels had a lot of silly things going on with the Jedi. I think Lucas was going more for a celibate monk sort of thing. They should have no possessions beyond their lightsabers and cloaks, which is why Anakin gives Artoo to Padme, right? I think that was mentioned in the ROTS novelization. This is also an idea given by Obi-Wan in the original Star Wars novelization and in the radio plays, that Jedi don't need money or possesions, they give it all up in order not to be bound by materialism. Also you can't see your family, which is why Anakin is never allowed to go see his mother over all those years.

The PT kind of turned the Jedi into jerks in some ways, they go around, take kids from their parents and never let them see them again, indoctrinating them and training them. They are not allowed to love, not allowed to be bonded with their family. Total disconnect from everything. I really like the Jedi as dipicted in the Tales of the Jedi comics much more than the PT monastic order.

Anyway, that is what Yoda was talking about, not to be bound emotionally. Another part of their philosophy is moving onto another plain of existance, therefore death should not be mourned, because while they are lost to us, they are not gone completely, they just went into another room as it were, where we can no longer see or be with them. 

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

Author
Time

Was their any sign of the Jedi having to be celibate back before the prequels came out?

Author
Time

No, just the opposite actually. Since originally Anakin actually was murdered by Obi-Wan's pupil Darth Vader. At this point Anakin was not a Jedi turned bad who was going around breaking rules, he was a good guy who was murdered by a bad guy, there is no reason to believe he had broken any rules by having a son.

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

Author
Time
 (Edited)

But do we really know for sure that Lucas didn't originally intend Anakin to be Darth Vader? I mean, I've long theorized that he invented that bit some time after he made the first film, but I don't know.

 

And what about after Empire Strikes Back came out and from then on down to when the prequels started to come out in 99, was there any sign whatsoever of the celibacy thing, even a hint?

 

The celibacy thing does fit with the sort of person who would give up all possessions. I know the EU authors certainly didn't seem to have celibacy in mind, they got Luke married.

Author
Time

The Jedi in the prequels were jerks. That makes RotJ even better: Luke tells the stuffy old monks to cram a sock in it then goes to rescue his dad. He never says the L-word, but you can tell he has found something to love in Vader, or at least he hopes to find something to love.

Kid barely knows his dad, dad beats on the kid, but kid is still devoted enough to turn dad around and together they overthrow the Empire. If that's not love--unshakeable devotion, seeing what someone could be rather than what they are, giving undeserved forgiveness--I don't know what is.

I think the Prequel Jedi were reprehensible for a lot of reasons, but Luke is a great guy, certainly more generous and noble than I think I would be in his shoes.

"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
Author
Time

Death is a difficult issue for the world to deal with. Is it good or is it bad? Lucas has decided that it's good and natural. Love which tries to deny (and thus transcend) death is therefore an evil or "selfish" kind of love in his mind. It's pretty simple.

I wouldn't say this is an "awful" message, so far as the world's market of ideas is concerned, but it is one I disagree with in an ultimate sense. It's definitely in contrast with the traditional Jewish and Christian idea of resurrection. Under that system, we are not to value our lives more than God, but, if we value God, we will see our lives as good and desirable. ("whoever loses his life will keep it.") George wanted a more simplistic philosophy it seems.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

Author
Time
Vaderisnothayden said:

And what about after Empire Strikes Back came out and from then on down to when the prequels started to come out in 99, was there any sign whatsoever of the celibacy thing, even a hint?

 

Not really, but I did read an interview once with Mark Hamill, and he wondered aloud whether or not Jedis were supposed to be celibate. It obviously wasn't explicitly spelled out to him, either.

 

Author
Time
Vaderisnothayden said:

But do we really know for sure that Lucas didn't originally intend Anakin to be Darth Vader? I mean, I've long theorized that he invented that bit some time after he made the first film, but I don't know.

 

Yeah, because in some of the early drafts Anakin and Darth Vader are different characters. There is alot of evidence to show that Lucas did not originally intend Anakin to be Darth Vader, and certianly didn't intend for Leia to be Luke's sister. All this was made up as he went along. One of the members here has written a great book called The Secret History of Star Wars, it is a great book that does some impressively extensive research into the history of the franchise that is usually ignored or over looked by most other "Making of"s. It is definitely worth reading. He used to provide a free PDF version of the book on his website, but since he is actually getting it published now, he has taken it down. Once the hard copy is availible, it will definitely be worth dishing out the money for. It was too good of a book to spend its life as nothing more than a pdf ebook. This book would really give you a lot of this information you seem really interested in.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

Author
Time

The guys working on the Marvel comics often had to deal with a long list of no-no's from Lucasfilm, but a story involving Luke on a planet once visited by Luke's father and Darth Vader together sailed on through.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time

Zombie is actually getting Secret History published?!  Amazing!  I've read that all the way through twice now, and one of the first things he says in the book is how the nature of it would probably keep it from ever being published!  I'm glad to see he managed to work something out.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time

first of all, to refer to earlier, the jedi were jerks. i couldn't stand mace windu! worse part played by Samuel L. Jackson ever! but as for anakin and vader, i heard that it was obi-wan who killed lukes father. Irvin kershner changed that on his own. one of the best things to happen btw.

Author
Time

No, you, or who you heard this from, are getting things mixed up. It was never actually intended that Obi-Wan killed Luke's father, it was that in the original script, Darth Vader told Luke that Obi-Wan killed his father. Right before the scene was filmed, they told Mark Hamil that regardless of what the script says, or what David Prowse is saying, what you are hearing is "Luke, I am your father." Then later when James Earl Jones recorded Darth's lines, they had him say the actual words that are heard in the film.

The only reason they did this was to avoid any spoilers leaking since so many of the scripts would be floating around. That is why they didn't even tell Mark until right before he filmed it. That way if anything leak, it would be misinformation.

Also I am pretty sure Lucas was the one to come up with the "I am your father idea", not Kershner.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

Author
Time

the "you don't know the truth obi wan killed your father" dialogue was the fake dialogue everyone had except for like 5 people who knew the real lines.

Even Dave Prowse on set recorded dialogue was that obi wan killed Lukes father.  And it was Prowse who supposedly Leaked that to the British Tabloids.  Lucas was so furious that when it came to filming the prequels Prowse was not welcomed back, and the rest is history we got Hayden Vader.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

Author
Time
Mielr said:
Vaderisnothayden said:

And what about after Empire Strikes Back came out and from then on down to when the prequels started to come out in 99, was there any sign whatsoever of the celibacy thing, even a hint?

 

Not really, but I did read an interview once with Mark Hamill, and he wondered aloud whether or not Jedis were supposed to be celibate. It obviously wasn't explicitly spelled out to him, either.

 

When was this interview done?

 

Author
Time
 (Edited)
rcb said:

first of all, to refer to earlier, the jedi were jerks. i couldn't stand mace windu! worse part played by Samuel L. Jackson ever! but as for anakin and vader, i heard that it was obi-wan who killed lukes father. Irvin kershner changed that on his own. one of the best things to happen btw.

Mace Windu was a pain in the butt. The writing for the character was crap and Samuel L Jackson is such a good actor but his performance there really wasn't good. The prequels are really good at getting bad performances from good actors. Yoda in the prequels was a pain the butt too.

 

Author
Time

Actually the "leak" occured on the Jedi set. Prowse once said in a Starlog interview that it was pretty unpleasant for him working on the film after that. He also denied being the source of the leak.

There was also an interview with one of the producers around the same time, (Howard Kazanjian?) who joked about someone unnamed that leaked phony script info given to them.

Since Prowse donned the Vader costume for that VCR board game Kenner once made in the 90's, I presume Lucas gave his blessing?

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time
skyjedi2005 said:

I believe it is based on Bhuddist philosophy.

Agreed. Buddhists believe (if I'm not mistaken) that to reach Enlightenment you must set yourself free from worldly suffering and attachment.

 

Author
Time

Really? I think worldly suffering and attachment are an important part of being a human being.

Author
Time
Vaderisnothayden said:
Mielr said:
Vaderisnothayden said:

And what about after Empire Strikes Back came out and from then on down to when the prequels started to come out in 99, was there any sign whatsoever of the celibacy thing, even a hint?

 

Not really, but I did read an interview once with Mark Hamill, and he wondered aloud whether or not Jedis were supposed to be celibate. It obviously wasn't explicitly spelled out to him, either.

 

When was this interview done?

 

Around the time ROTJ was released, I believe. It might be in the ROTJ 'making of' book.