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Since there are some people on this forum who are knowledgeable about religion and the Bible I was wondering if you could help me with some questions. I don't know much about the Bible and I only read some parts recommended by C3PX.
There is this christian political group/party in the Netherlands that believe woman shouldn't vote, shouldn't be able to become a member of a political party and shouldn't be politically active. They claim to follow Gods word in this. By following God's word I assume they are talking about the Bible. I would like to know if there is anyone who can tell me how they could possibly have come to this conclusion. I guess it doesn't literally say this about women in the Bible so I would like to know if there are parts that can be interpreted this way.
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No true Christian would place such a restriction on women like that. They get an equal chance at salvation, so they should get an equal chance at making their mark on society. Whether they do that by devoting their lives to the public eye or by more "traditional" paths should be their choice, not the government's.
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Well since the Bible contains the judicial code of the primitive tribal groups that wandered the middle east 5,000 years ago, and among other laws contains codes that insist a woman must be brought to her fathers door step and stoned to death if she is not a virgin on her wedding night, it should come as absolutely no surprise that there are passages restricting voting and such. Since said ancient tribal peoples for whom the laws were written were not a democracy to begin with, the issue of voting is somewhat moot, but as it was a strict and often violent patriarchy there are indeed very many passages restricting women's participation in community and government, which by extension would include voting in modern times. Technically speaking, its not legally possible to live by the Bible in any strict sense so its all bullshit in the first place. People just pick and choose the bits they like to support whatever views they already subscribe to.

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no where in the bible does it say that women cant vote im a loyal christian im glad some people r around here
In Sadness and Despair with a Forever Frozen Heart i have been Healed I am the Angel of Despair

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I like this quote by Richard Dawkins concerning the Old Testament.
The god of the Old Testament has got to be the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it, petty, vindictive, unjust, unforgiving, racist, an ethnic-cleanser urging his people on to acts of genocide.
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u kno the bible yet u make fun of retards very christian like
In Sadness and Despair with a Forever Frozen Heart i have been Healed I am the Angel of Despair

And all Fan Editors can byte me
die evil scum

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Originally posted by: {DoS}Hellhound
u kno the bible yet u make fun of retards very christian like


So you just admitted that you yourself are a retard?
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YER just a pethetic piece of shit that made no sense watsoever yer just a fat lump of lard who eats way too much of his moms pussy who needs a life
In Sadness and Despair with a Forever Frozen Heart i have been Healed I am the Angel of Despair

And all Fan Editors can byte me
die evil scum

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Originally posted by: Arnie.d
Since there are some people on this forum who are knowledgeable about religion and the Bible I was wondering if you could help me with some questions. I don't know much about the Bible and I only read some parts recommended by C3PX.
There is this christian political group/party in the Netherlands that believe woman shouldn't vote, shouldn't be able to become a member of a political party and shouldn't be politically active. They claim to follow Gods word in this. By following God's word I assume they are talking about the Bible. I would like to know if there is anyone who can tell me how they could possibly have come to this conclusion. I guess it doesn't literally say this about women in the Bible so I would like to know if there are parts that can be interpreted this way.



That is completely unbiblical. Even Zombie's post about the possibilty of there being such a passage in the Old Testament is simply not the case (for one it was not a democracy, so the idea of voting in the way we think of it even being mentioned in the Old Testament would be absurd, for another, even one of the Jewish judges, which was a ruling position, was a woman).

Christians are under the new law, they do not follow Jewish law (which is what Zombie is refering to). Christian doctrine teaches that when Christ came he fullfilled the old law, and now the restrictions of that law do not apply. That means no circumcision for Christians, not burnt offereings, and that all things that were considered unclean are now clean. The argument often comes up around here that we Christians are hypocrytical and choosing to obey certian parts of the Bible selectively (and that may be the case, but not due to the examples of Christians not following the old law that is so often brought up here), let me put this to rest right now. Seriously, it is part of our doctrine that the Old Testament Law is not to be followed.

Paul wrote to the church in Galatia, "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:23-29

In Christ there is no "male" or "female" we are all equal. Groups like that "Christian" political group/party in the Netherlands are either very misguided, or they just want to use religion as an excuse to oppress women. Whatever their motive, they are both wrong and unbiblical.

Hellhound, good job showing them what for. Score one point for Christians whoohoo <- tounge in cheek! ("loyal Christians" that behave and act like Hellhound make me seriously want to consider converting to atheism).


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I think these idiots if they follow the "words of god" or from a bible,it must be one they made up,not many religions can be that retarded.
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Originally posted by: Montcalm
not many religions can be that retarded.


Oh, you'd be surprised.

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Originally posted by: Montcalm
I think these idiots if they follow the "words of god" or from a bible,it must be one they made up,not many religions can be that retarded.


Until the last hundred years of human history or so--pretty much all of them.

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"When George went back and put new creatures into the original Star Wars, I find that disturbing. It’s a revision of history. That bothers me."

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Religion isn't something so simplistic that we can dismiss it as an outdated form of behavior based on primitive belief systems. I'm often surprised by how ignorant otherwise intelligent people can be about Christianity and the Hebrew scriptures. This not only applies to non-Christians, but people who claim to be Christians as well. Unfortunately the world runs on misinformation and rhetoric.

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Religion isn't something so simplistic that we can dismiss it as an outdated form of behavior based on primitive belief systems. I'm often surprised by how ignorant otherwise intelligent people can be about Christianity and the Hebrew scriptures. This not only applies to non-Christians, but people who claim to be Christians as well. Unfortunately the world runs on misinformation and rhetoric.


It's full of bullshit that never happened.
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Wow, a lot of reactions since I made the thread yesterday. Thanks everyone and especially C3PX, your post was very clear.
Fortunately this political party is very small and doesn't have enough votes to be of any significance politically.

On another note, a lot of old churches in the Netherlands used to have 2 entrances. 1 in the south wall for the men and 1 in the north wall for the women (although most if not all have been replaced by 1 entrance in the west wall). As I understand it when the churches were build (in the dark/middle ages) people believed everything dark and evil came from the north and it was the fault of a woman, eve, that the Paradise was lost so the women had to enter the church on the north, dark side of the church. Could this believe also have something to do with this religious political party banning women?
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Originally posted by: sean wookie
It's full of bullshit that never happened.


Mind backing that up?
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Originally posted by: {DoS}Hellhound
YER just a pethetic piece of shit that made no sense watsoever yer just a fat lump of lard who eats way too much of his moms pussy who needs a life


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Originally posted by: Arnie.d
Wow, a lot of reactions since I made the thread yesterday. Thanks everyone and especially C3PX, your post was very clear.
Fortunately this political party is very small and doesn't have enough votes to be of any significance politically.

On another note, a lot of old churches in the Netherlands used to have 2 entrances. 1 in the south wall for the men and 1 in the north wall for the women (although most if not all have been replaced by 1 entrance in the west wall). As I understand it when the churches were build (in the dark/middle ages) people believed everything dark and evil came from the north and it was the fault of a woman, eve, that the Paradise was lost so the women had to enter the church on the north, dark side of the church. Could this believe also have something to do with this religious political party banning women?



I don't now where they got the whole evil from the North thing. Historically women have often been considered inequal to men in many cultures. I would say both the silly political party, and the old Netherland churches are both products of misogynistic backgrounds.

Reminds me of an old movie theater in this small town I lived in for a few months. The theater had a front entrance and a side entrance via an alley. The front entrance led to the concession area, then into the theater. While the alley entrance led directly to the balcony. There was no connection from through the front doors where you could get to the balcony, only through the alley entrance. And from the balcony the only way to reach the concession stand or the restrooms was by leaving and entering through the front. This struck me as extremely odd and made no logical sense to me until it was explained to me that the theater was very old, and during the time it was built it was common to make the balcony the "black" section and have it cut off from the rest. Black people bought there tickets at the box office, then were pointed to the alley entrance. They were never allowed to enter into the front, not to buy concessions or to use the restrooms, if they needed to use the restroom during the movie, they had to use the alley. Horrible. I am not that sensitive of a guy, but I was a little choked up after hearing that and having seen the layout of the theater first hand.

Both of the above cases are sickening prejudices.

In the Jewish temple that existed in Jesus' time, there were several distinct areas where only certain people could go. First there was the large open area called the court of gentiles, everybody was allowed here. All gentiles who converted to Judaism were confined to worshiping here. This is also the area that in Jesus' time was being used as a market place for selling animals and exchanging money, which Jesus gets annoyed about at one point and start knocking their tables over. At a point in the court of gentiles there was a barrier that warned gentiles not to pass. After this point there was the court of women, and women were not allowed to go beyond this point (the Netherland churches you mentioned reminded me of this, though it is not quite the same). Next is the court of Israel, where all Jewish men can go, then the court of the priests, where only priests can go, and the Holy of Holies, where only the high priest can go and only once a year. In this case men and women were completely divided for worship, rather than merely having to use two seperate entrances.

Throughout Paul's letters he continually addresses division of men & women and Jew & gentile saying that in Christ these differences no longer exist. At one point Paul even mentions the barrier wall of the temple that seperated the court of the gentiles and the rest of the temple, saying that in Christ this barrier is destroyed.

Some people maybe thinking, "But Paul is clearly a misogynist himself" well, that is not necessarily true. One major example of Paul's misogyny is in 1 Corinthians when he says women must remain silent in the assembly (Church). So women are ineqal and not allowed to speak while men can? If you look a little deeper and do a fair exegesis of the letter to the Corinthians you will find that in other verses he instructs women to take turns when they feel they have something important to say and to be careful not to interupt each other. So if Paul warns them not to interupt each other, then it wouldn't make much sense to say later in the same letter, don't speak at all. What it actually says is for women to keep silent during the assembly and to ask their husbands any questions they had once they get home. In Corinth only men would recieve any kind of formal education, so it seems more like this verse is addressing women who don't understand something turning to their husbands and asking them to explain it to them in the middle of the service, which would be distracting to those people around them, so it makes sense for Paul to say, hey please don't talk during the assembly, save your questions till after it is over. Unfortunately this verse and a few others have been used as an excuse for Christians to continue treating women as inferiors.

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Originally posted by: sean wookie
It's full of bullshit that never happened.


Perhaps.

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Originally posted by: {DoS}Hellhound
YER just a pethetic piece of shit that made no sense watsoever yer just a fat lump of lard who eats way too much of his moms pussy who needs a life


Not a very Christian attitude there....


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Bravo C3PX. It's nice to see a christian who thinks & talks like one. Hellhound i mean no offense, but if you really are a christian, then you should REALLY examine your attitude, behavior, & language.... It is NOT Christ-like at all.


People are discussing the Law (old testament vs new). I agree with everything C3PX has said, but i thought i'd add something. People who disdain christianity often point to the old testament and it's extreme nature & use it to make fun of an "evil" & mean spirited God, & "hypocritical" Christians who don't follow all the rules in the old testament. C3PX did a great job explaining why we as Christians no longer follow the law, but he didn't really touch on why it was given to us in the first place.

People often dislike christians b/c they go around calling everyone sinners which is "bad". Well, they are accurate in calling everyone (including themselves) sinners, but i think there is a stigma that people attach to that b/c they take it as an insult & don't fully understand what it means. Sin is simply anything that does not conform to God's will, character, or nature. Of course some of these are bad (murder, theft, etc.) but they don't have to be. it could be as simple as God making it clear to you His will is for you to buy an Xbox 360, & you buy a PS3 instead. (silly example, but it makes the point. it's not aligned with God's nature, & therefore sin).

So what's this got to do with the law? Well, God created us to be with him. His companions & family. He WANTS us to be with him. But he also gave us the ability to choose to follow & love him, or to reject him (to sin!!) this is b/c our love is far more worthwhile if it's voluntary. However, because we (the human race) have decided to sin (which began with Adam & Eve, but continues to this day) there's a problem. God cannot and will not allow sin in his presence. So He had to make a way to wash out our sinfulness. That's where Jesus Christ, the Saviour comes in. But why should we accept him? we seem to be ok, decent people right? wrong! Even the tiniest bit of sin will keep you from the presence of God. SOOOooooo.........

We get.... THE LAW!!! & it's a very harsh, unforgiving law. This is not b/c God is mean, or spiteful. The law is so harsh b/c it's built to show us that no matter how hard we try, we can never be sinless & worthy of God's presence under our own power. We need help. We need a Saviour! Thus leading us back to Jesus.

So, the law was in place to show us (after we chose to reject God & sin) that we can never work our way back into His good graces under our own power. Not b/c he doesn't love us, but b/c he can not allow sin in his holy presence. But he does love us!! He loves us so much that he actually died to win us back through Jesus! & when that happened, the law (which was really just a set of rules to get back in God's good graces & wash away sin) was fulfilled & therefore we no longer have to follow it.

HOWEVER, just b/c we are not bound to follow the law does not mean that we cannot learn from it. After all, it was put in place to show us our need for a saviour. Therefore we read it, learn from it, but do not have to follow it.



** Just thought i'd put a note expalining that the law i refer to is the old testament jewish law including, but not limited to, the ten commandments
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Amen, C3PX and canofhumdingers. Good to see fellow Christian Star Wars conservatives.

Yes, the Old Testament is drastically misunderstood by those unwilling to take it seriously. I encounter these same objections so much, and they influence how people view biblical Christians. We aren't, or at least shouldn't be, selective about what parts we obey. We aren't national Israel, we are in Christ in this dispensation of grace. We aren't under that law system. It's purpose was served and it is no longer in effect.

Remember, never read a Bible verse. Anything that can, will be ripped out of context and misappropriated.
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Originally posted by: {DoS}Hellhound
YER just a pathetic piece of shit that made no sense watsoever yer just a fat lump of lard who eats way too much of his moms pussy who needs a life


how very Christian believe what i say or ill make you feel unpleasant.
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Originally posted by: sean wookie
Originally posted by: Tiptup
Religion isn't something so simplistic that we can dismiss it as an outdated form of behavior based on primitive belief systems. I'm often surprised by how ignorant otherwise intelligent people can be about Christianity and the Hebrew scriptures. This not only applies to non-Christians, but people who claim to be Christians as well. Unfortunately the world runs on misinformation and rhetoric.


It's full of bullshit that never happened.


Your full of bull shit that never should have happened.

Play nice now sean now christian ever did anything to you.
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Originally posted by: C3PX<br

Some people maybe thinking, "But Paul is clearly a misogynist himself" well, that is not necessarily true. One major example of Paul's misogyny is in 1 Corinthians when he says women must remain silent in the assembly (Church). So women are ineqal and not allowed to speak while men can? ....


This is the only Biblical referrence I could think of when the OP started the thread. I've never heard an explanation for it quite like yours, C3PX, so thanks.

I think modern interpretations of the Bible that are used to support ideas like that are just as misguided as Hitler's attempt to justify his persecution of the Jews a few decades ago. As someone said earlier, religion and religious works are often used to support pre-existing ideas. It's a tale as old as time.

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