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Info: Re-mixed audio tracks on video releases — Page 3

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Coligion said:

I was just about ready to order the region A Blu-Ray when I read some posts about the 5.1 remix being subject to criticism. Can anyone that owns this release of Escape from New York confirm whether or not it has the original soundtrack used in the first edition DVD?

I have not yet been able to get an answer to this. Maybe someone who owns it will see this and confirm it for us, as there's a chance one of the releases just have a stereo fold-down of the re-mix.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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msycamore said:

 

Coligion said:

I was just about ready to order the region A Blu-Ray when I read some posts about the 5.1 remix being subject to criticism. Can anyone that owns this release of Escape from New York confirm whether or not it has the original soundtrack used in the first edition DVD?

I have not yet been able to get an answer to this. Maybe someone who owns it will see this and confirm it for us, as there's a chance one of the releases just have a stereo fold-down of the re-mix.

I tried to do some digging after reading this thread, but there is not a whole lot of reviews talking about the Dolby 2.0 mix provided in this Blu-Ray release;  not surprisingly, only the DTS HD-MA track is discussed.  A user review over at Blu-Ray.com indicates it is not a simple down-mix of the 5.1 track, though.  I was just hoping someone here might also be able to confirm.

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Sounds as though captainsolo needs a receiver which supports HDMI, Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio and LPCM.

BATMAN (1989) Blu-ray 5.1 TrueHD sounds shit because it was lowered 4Db.

 

Since the JAWS Blu-ray is only going to have 7.1 DTS-HD MA, anyone have a high bitrate PCM track from the Signature Collection Laserdisc? Similar to what dark jedi did for The Terminator. Glad I have a Blu-ray disc burner but BD50s are expensive.

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FremenDar said:

Since the JAWS Blu-ray is only going to have 7.1 DTS-HD MA, anyone have a high bitrate PCM track from the Signature Collection Laserdisc?

Have this really been confirmed? I guess a PCM rip would be nice anyway, as there's a pretty big chance the mono mix will be lossy on the Blu-ray if they include it.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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msycamore said:

FremenDar said:

Since the JAWS Blu-ray is only going to have 7.1 DTS-HD MA, anyone have a high bitrate PCM track from the Signature Collection Laserdisc?

Have this really been confirmed? I guess a PCM rip would be nice anyway, as there's a pretty big chance the mono mix will be lossy on the Blu-ray if they include it.

The mono mix is going to be lossy, unfortunately. Pity Universal UK might not do what they did for PSYCHO Blu-ray which was having the original cinematic audio be lossless. Whenever I watch the 30th Anniversary DVD I always choose the 1.0 track.

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Another example of a missing mono track: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. When MGM put together the restored extended cut, they only did a 5.1 remix, since the original mono track conformed to the shorter U.S. theatrical cut, and according to DVD Savant a restored mono track was not included in the restoration budget.

The Blu-ray includes a mono track...but it's a fold-down of the modern remix! All the other MGM Leone films include the original mono (albeit not lossless), but TGTBATU doesn't.

The original DVD contains a mono track, but naturally it's not lossless. This film deserves a lossless preservation of the mono track from laserdisc. Both of the 90s letterbox LD releases contain a digital track as well as a CX-encoded analog track.

I think it could also be possible to make an extended version of the original mono track, by taking the lossless Italian mono track on the Mondo Blu-ray for the additional scenes, and switching to a mono fold-down of the English whenever someone talks. That way, you'd have a mostly original, English mono mix that could be synched up to that superior release.

And if you want to go one further and make an English mono that includes the grotto scene, to synch up to the MGM Blu-ray, you could probably cut together the lossy Italian mono on that disc with the English dialogue from the remix.

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I watched "Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol" on BD today. And I was a little disapointed with the sound, the theatre mix seemed to be so perfect, every thing could be heard perfectly. I don't know, maybe it's  the acustics of the theatre and not the sound mix. Does the acoustics of the theater influences the sound?

"Yeah and... and... and I'm gonna be back to talk about them Rolexes."

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TServo2049 said:

Another example of a missing mono track: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. When MGM put together the restored extended cut, they only did a 5.1 remix, since the original mono track conformed to the shorter U.S. theatrical cut, and according to DVD Savant a restored mono track was not included in the restoration budget.

The Blu-ray includes a mono track...but it's a fold-down of the modern remix! All the other MGM Leone films include the original mono (albeit not lossless), but TGTBATU doesn't.

The original DVD contains a mono track, but naturally it's not lossless. This film deserves a lossless preservation of the mono track from laserdisc. Both of the 90s letterbox LD releases contain a digital track as well as a CX-encoded analog track.

I think it could also be possible to make an extended version of the original mono track, by taking the lossless Italian mono track on the Mondo Blu-ray for the additional scenes, and switching to a mono fold-down of the English whenever someone talks. That way, you'd have a mostly original, English mono mix that could be synched up to that superior release.

And if you want to go one further and make an English mono that includes the grotto scene, to synch up to the MGM Blu-ray, you could probably cut together the lossy Italian mono on that disc with the English dialogue from the remix.

All this is true.  I never picked up the Blu-Ray for this very reason and, well, the fact that it did not contain the theatrical cut.  I sought out the first domestic release to get both of these features.  The mono sound effects sound so much better compared to the 5.1 remix...Think of Terminator for a good comparison. 

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Always. Plus you have to factor in their amps, speakers, processors and if people have calibrated things properly. Ghost Protocol sounded okay to me theatrically, but I saw it in an older second run theater with standard Dolby 5.1 running off the film print.

TServo2049 said:

Another example of a missing mono track: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. When MGM put together the restored extended cut, they only did a 5.1 remix, since the original mono track conformed to the shorter U.S. theatrical cut, and according to DVD Savant a restored mono track was not included in the restoration budget.

The worst remix of any film ever. It violates the film itself and everyone's intent.

The Blu-ray includes a mono track...but it's a fold-down of the modern remix! All the other MGM Leone films include the original mono (albeit not lossless), but TGTBATU doesn't.

This is exactly what MGM did when they released a newly extended cut of Duck, You Sucker! on DVD. The "Mono" option was merely a folddown of the 5.1, and while it was nowhere near as intrusive as the bastard GBU mix, it features the wrong music in several spots!

The original DVD contains a mono track, but naturally it's not lossless. This film deserves a lossless preservation of the mono track from laserdisc. Both of the 90s letterbox LD releases contain a digital track as well as a CX-encoded analog track.

It sounds quite good for lossy DD. I need to find those LDs myself, I do know that the first letterbox issue has the Italian names for the three in their freeze frames, and that the later issue is simply the same as the original DVD, which was an early LD to DVD port.

I think it could also be possible to make an extended version of the original mono track, by taking the lossless Italian mono track on the Mondo Blu-ray for the additional scenes, and switching to a mono fold-down of the English whenever someone talks. That way, you'd have a mostly original, English mono mix that could be synched up to that superior release.

And if you want to go one further and make an English mono that includes the grotto scene, to synch up to the MGM Blu-ray, you could probably cut together the lossy Italian mono on that disc with the English dialogue from the remix.

It's better, easier and truer to simply leave the scenes in Italian and subtitled. That way you have the original effects and balancing the way it was mixed. To try and go in and replace dialogues would be nearly impossible since everything is already mixed and placed in a single channel. You'd wind up with the two dialogues fighting each other and drowning out everything else. And I hate the re-dubbed English, Clint and Eli hardly even sound like themselves and it really detracts from the experience.

 

FremenDar said:

Sounds as though captainsolo needs a receiver which supports HDMI, Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio and LPCM.

It's older but it does both DD and DTS 5.1 just fine.

BATMAN (1989) Blu-ray 5.1 TrueHD sounds shit because it was lowered 4Db.

Really? Hmm..wonder why they did that. I guess it's part of the Dolby Stereo to 5.1 conversion? All the films that have this done seem to lack the punch and rumble that I recall them having. With the move to discrete channels, there seems to be a loss of presence and a kind of analogue muddiness that I miss. (Just watched Last Crusade on DVD and thought it sounded a bit too polite.)

Since the JAWS Blu-ray is only going to have 7.1 DTS-HD MA, anyone have a high bitrate PCM track from the Signature Collection Laserdisc? Similar to what dark jedi did for The Terminator. Glad I have a Blu-ray disc burner but BD50s are expensive.

That would be the way to go, as the Blu will have a lossy mono as an afterthought. That said, with a decent receiver and speakers, lossy mono can be pretty effective. I cranked the heck out of the mono on the 30th Anniv. DVD when I screened this for people in college. No one has really understood what the Jaws experience is meant to be like unless hearing this in the dark.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
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captainsolo said:

TServo2049 said:

The Blu-ray includes a mono track...but it's a fold-down of the modern remix! All the other MGM Leone films include the original mono (albeit not lossless), but TGTBATU doesn't.

This is exactly what MGM did when they released a newly extended cut of Duck, You Sucker! on DVD. The "Mono" option was merely a folddown of the 5.1, and while it was nowhere near as intrusive as the bastard GBU mix, it features the wrong music in several spots!

Funny that, John Kirk says he changed nothing music wise, and Glenn "DVD Savant" Erickson, who worked at MGM when the uncut LD was released and knows more about the film than anyone, says the music matches both LDs.

But if the DVD indeed has "fake mono," then track down the 1998 A Fistful of Dynamite LD, which has both digital and CX mono.

Could the other two films also have fake mono?

It's better, easier and truer to simply leave the scenes in Italian and subtitled. That way you have the original effects and balancing the way it was mixed.

Agreed 100%. A hybrid Eng/Ita mono synched with the Mondo BD visual would be perfect.

BATMAN (1989) Blu-ray 5.1 TrueHD sounds shit because it was lowered 4Db.

Really? Hmm..wonder why they did that. I guess it's part of the Dolby Stereo to 5.1 conversion? All the films that have this done seem to lack the punch and rumble that I recall them having. With the move to discrete channels, there seems to be a loss of presence and a kind of analogue muddiness that I miss. (Just watched Last Crusade on DVD and thought it sounded a bit too polite.)

Who knows? Maybe it has to do with modern home surround tracks being tweaked for the smaller home setting? Mike Verta said something like that.

Since the JAWS Blu-ray is only going to have 7.1 DTS-HD MA, anyone have a high bitrate PCM track from the Signature Collection Laserdisc? Similar to what dark jedi did for The Terminator. Glad I have a Blu-ray disc burner but BD50s are expensive.

That would be the way to go, as the Blu will have a lossy mono as an afterthought. That said, with a decent receiver and speakers, lossy mono can be pretty effective.

Seconded, lossy is better than remix-only. That's why I'm still holding on to the 2001 DVD of T1.

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TServo2049 said:

captainsolo said:

TServo2049 said:

The Blu-ray includes a mono track...but it's a fold-down of the modern remix! All the other MGM Leone films include the original mono (albeit not lossless), but TGTBATU doesn't.

This is exactly what MGM did when they released a newly extended cut of Duck, You Sucker! on DVD. The "Mono" option was merely a folddown of the 5.1, and while it was nowhere near as intrusive as the bastard GBU mix, it features the wrong music in several spots!

Funny that, John Kirk says he changed nothing music wise, and Glenn "DVD Savant" Erickson, who worked at MGM when the uncut LD was released and knows more about the film than anyone, says the music matches both LDs.

But if the DVD indeed has "fake mono," then track down the 1998 A Fistful of Dynamite LD, which has both digital and CX mono.

Could the other two films also have fake mono?

The 98 LD indeed has the original mono mix with line variations that are not present in the 2007 5.1/mono mixes. The cues are different as well in several places. The only thing this LD version lacks is the full end flashback and the final "What about me?" line. The new mix is WRONG. And theatrically it didn't sound too good either.

Fistful and FAFDM do feature their original tracks, though they may have been sweetened or mussed with a bit. FAFDM fixes a sync problem that was introduced with the first DVD release.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
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Great examples with the Leone films, as I said in the beginning of this thread, MGM seems to be the great champions on bad video remixes. I never bought the extended The Good, the Bad and the Ugly DVD because of this issue, still own the first MGM DVD with the additional scenes as an extra, great release for its time.

I think I posted this in another thread: http://www.forafewdollarsmore.net/

But it's a nice breakdown of all the major issues with For a Few Dollars More on video.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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With the Mondo release as a picture source, maybe the original mono could be reconstructed to sync with the uncut version.

Did the 1991 LBX LD have the sync problems too? Also, if the old VHS tapes were uncut, does that mean the missing scenes could also be on the old CBS/Fox LD? It's non-CX analog, but it is English mono...

LDDB also claims that the Japanese LBX disc is uncut. There's a copy for sale, but like most Japanese LDs, it's pricey (about $43, plus the seller is in Japan).

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The scenes were removed by US distributors and thus never dubbed into English during the dub session in 65/66. The first release of them in nay territory besides Italy that I know of is the MGM 1998 LD and DVD. For the Rome premiere version these were all present plus the grotto scene (which I despise for some reason) and the Socorro sequence. The latter two were removed from the general Italian release, which is why the entire extended version has the full Italian mono for 180 minutes.

I don't know if any video releases would have them already in the cut. It should be pretty easy to sync the English mono PCM to the Mondo release (which BTW looks stunning to my eyes in screencaps, can't wait to get one for myself it looks much more like the film should.) Either simply add in the English and leave the other scenes in the italian PCM on the disc, or if necessary track down the 98 LD and add in that PCM from the deleted scenes.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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It's not gonna be that easy. Apparently, TGTBATU has a couple bits in the American cuts that are not in the Italian one. When Eastwood takes his share of the gold, there's a shot of his horse rearing up, and then Clint says "Sorry, Tuco."

The Italian mono on the MGM disc actually has matching audio for these parts, but these two shots have apparently always been absent from the true Italian cut. Conversely, they have always been in the American cut, since every video release going back to the old pan-and-scanned videos has had them.

There are also differences in the scene of Tuco being tortured. There are some comparison clips of both in this thread:

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?action=printpage;topic=10097.0

If there are bits missing from the Italian cut, then conforming the English mono to it might be difficult. I'm thinking of what CatBus had to do for Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Either that, or make a hybrid of the Mondo and MGM video sources to go with the hybrid English/Italian track.

Returning to an earlier topic: SilverWook, any luck on the Grease LD?

Also, I discovered that at least some foreign mixes of that film were different - Canal Hollywood in Spain shows what looks to be the restored version, but with an old, mono Castilian Spanish dub track. It matches the 1978 mix, but some sound effects and things seem to be mixed differently.

In "You're the One That I Want," the sound of Sandy grinding out her cigarette with her toe is really loud. You can also hear Danny throw away his sweater, though it's not as loud as it is in the remix, and I didn't hear the loud "thump" sounds when Danny's sweater and Sandy's jacket hit the ground, which are only in the remix.

Also, the vocals of Jan and Putzie, Sonny and Marty, and Doody singing along are mixed in a lot louder than the original English mix. They're basically at full volume. (This is also true for the modern, remix-derived German dub, but as with the previously mentioned backup vocals, they are horribly out of sync with the rest of the music...)

Some of the walla sounds kind of different in some of these dubs, for example, the wolf whistles when the made-over Sandy first walks in, but I'm wondering if some of those were actually unique to each language's dub...

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Didn't someone here created a fanedit of Duck You Sucker with the original mono? ADM?

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Wanted to mention I am getting the remastered pan and scan Grease LD. (My best offer was accepted and the seller had another disc I wanted.)

I look forward to cranking the original soundtrack mix on my HT setup. I've been on a bit of a 70's musical kick lately. Watched the infamous Sgt. Pepper's movie last week, which has a wonderful DTS track that seems faithful to the original mix, AFAIK.

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I am crossing my fingers that it's actually the remastered audio. I'm not even sure whether or not they changed the packaging for that re-release.

How apropos that you're getting this not long after another user found an early-90s Japanese LD of Star Wars with the 1977 Dolby Stereo track in digital...more proof at how invaluable LDs are for original sound mixes.

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The revenge of the Laserdisc. ;)

I suspect there's some slight difference on the back of the disc jacket that differentiates the two releases. One reason I went for a copy on the LDDB.

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Where were you in '77?

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Something that's been nagging at me for some time: on LD, which sound track is preferable, Analog or Digital? If there is a Digital track present, is the analog usually sourced from this or is it possible to make an analog transfer of a higher quality bitrate than the encoded 16/44.1 of the Digital track? I've always thought the Digital track was preferable due to being presented discretely and typically cleaner, but after dabbling in LP needledrops and higher resolution audio I wondered about the analog tracks.

I'd love to find the original Raiders LD and make a 24/96 high res track of the original Dolby Stereo.

And according to this thread on TheRaider.net, there is an alternate line when Indy is sliding under the truck to lash his whip.

http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=21633

EDIT: Here it is. Indeed, Indy says something like "Do they think I'm dumb?" Plus the grunt he makes when flung out is louder, and some of the sound effects are different sounding. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvE5fhsytS8

And these are even on the official Bonus disc of the DVD box set. On the Stunts featurette at the 4:55 mark to be exact. The footage looks like an LD master, so perhaps it's from that release. Hmm...I don't know why I always come back to the mix of Raiders for this thread.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
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I gave my old Pan and Scan Raiders LD a spin recently. The labels on both sides nearly fell off inside the player! It's little things like that driving my desire to thin out my collection as much as possible. Not to mention finding mild rot on discs I long ago presumed "safe" from it.

Have the differences in Raider's mixes been documented to the degree Star Wars has? I recall seeing an old tv spot on Youtube where some lines sounded like alternate takes.

I'll try and check my LD again soon to see if I can hear that line.

I've heard varying opinions on analog vs. digital tracks from LD fans over the years. I've captured music videos that only had a CX encoded analog stereo track and they sound great in PCM on DVD. (CX is similar to Dolby NR.)

Soundtracks without the CX noise reduction have more "hiss", and on my oldest player there is some electrical sounding background noise audible with CX turned off. This presented a problem with the Criterion Monty Python and the Holy Grail tracks I captured for Catbus' project. I ended up using my CLD-D704 for everything.

I can't recall ever seeing any LD title with a CX encoded mono track.

Some LD fans believe the analog output on more modern players are lower on purpose to make the digital sound better. My 704 seems better in this regard since it's recent repairs and tuneup, but I'm not certain.

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Vertigo has a really bad stereo remix.  They didn't even try to match the original, using completely new gun sounds and so on.

I wish that I could just wish my feelings away...but I can't.  Wishful wishing can only lead to wishes wished for in futile wishfulness, which is not what I wish to wish for. 

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Silver, I think you mentioned that before about modern players having the analog signal turned down. Puzzling as to why they would think that was a good idea. My DVL-700 seems to have no difference between volume levels, but I hardly play the analog signal.

No one's really gone into the Raiders sound mix. I don't think there are a great many differences, but for some reason ever since I bought the DVDs, I haven't been fully happy with the 5.1 track, and the 35mm restoration just cemented that in my mind. Combine that with these now documented differences and I'm thinking that there indeed is a better mix out there. Especially since it was intended for split surround Dolby Stereo, but may have not been released as such.

My thoughts on possible Raiders mixes:

35mm Dolby Stereo

70mm Dolby Stereo (Either of these may have been split surround, or they may not, if either it was probably the 70mm)

1991 WS LD mix-may have been a remix done at this point as several have stated that there were distinct new additions made. Or this may be the original track and the previous video versions were a video mix.

2003 DVD 5.1-Supposedly derived from the original 6 track master. This same audio is reused for the new 4K restoration, with digital presentations having a higher resolution audio file accompanying screenings.

 

Sorry to hear about your disc...I'll be extra careful when I get a copy! The last thing I need is another rotted LD.

For capping analog audio, should CX encoding be on or off? Off would have all the noise and hiss but with it on is anything essential lost?

1990osu said:

Vertigo has a really bad stereo remix.  They didn't even try to match the original, using completely new gun sounds and so on.

Oh, this killed me for years. It's an awful mix that sounds nothing like a 1958 movie. Then like N by NW the score is in stereo. For all the work Robert Harris and James Katz did on the restoring the film, the sound almost undoes it. But it was at Universal's instance that there be a 5.1 mix created because someone was a dingbat. The DVD from the Masterpiece Collection has a mono track from a best available source print, and it is night and day. (The later Legacy disc has a folddown of the 5.1 instead of mono.) Speaking of this film, do any of the earlier video editions have a serviceable audio track? I've thought of picking up the old LD for this reason and to see  again what the film looked like pre-restoration. (I'm still not absolutely positive on some of the color choices made.)

 

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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Way back in the 90s, Treadwell said he remembered seeing a 16mm print of Raiders where Jock's voice sounded different. Wasn't there also a clip in the "Creepy Crawlies" featurette on the most recent DVD release, where Jock's voice was different?

I believe the guy who played Jock was American, but I don't know if that's his real voice. For a long time, I assumed he was either a British guy dubbed over by an American, or it was a British actor putting on a fake Texas accent. But apparently the guy who played Jock *was* American.

Either way, the scene would have had to have been ADR'ed, and I know the script and novelization said he was British, or Scottish, or something. What did the Jock voice in "Creepy Crawlies" sound like?

I have the widescreen CAV releases of the entire trilogy, but since I don't have a player, I'm not sure what to do with them. I was hoping to give them to someone who could do preservations of them - especially Raiders minus the digital corrections.

captainsolo, do you already have all three of the movies, or would you be interested in my copies? I bought them for ridiculously cheap at an indie music store, but they have the paper envelopes and those plastic-bag sleeves intact, and I didn't see any visible surface scratches.