'Raiders of the Lost Ark' - bluray and colour timing changes (Released) — Page 13

I've aligned the ~20GiB WOWOW 1080i capture to the R1 DVD (I prefer its 5.1 AC-3 audio to what's on the BD).

This took some work because two frames were dropped which caused a cadence break and prevented "Force Film" from working in DGIndex, so I had to manually IVTC it even though the stream used soft pulldown (ugh!).

After padding the beginning and end with appropriate amounts of black frames, I used my shot-change-detection+diff method to verify that the two are synchronized. They are. I then used IsCombedTIVTC() to verify that no combed frames were leftover from my manual IVTC. None were.

So... yay!

I now face the challenge of removing the few instances of burned-in JP subtitles. Does anyone have a list of which shots have them? If not, then I'll watch it once through and take notes. Thanks!

PDB said:

AntcuFaalb, have you considered including the laserdisc track also?

Yes, but I haven't done a bit perfect rip of it yet and my audio editing skills are insufficient, so I wouldn't be able to sync it to the R1 DVD.

I've begun looking at various transfers to see what else has been done on the film...

The whole flight sequence which ends on the matte painting of The Raven in Nepal was also screwed around with for the 2003 DVD version. (restored on the Blu-ray)

Top: BD Below: DVD

Besides removal of matte lines, the shape of the miniature was tweaked when seen on the plate in front of the Golden Gate bridge. The plate (the water around the plane) was also affected in the process. (I'm not entirely sure in which way this sequence was altered, as it doesn't look like just a regular recomp, the result is ugly)   EDIT: It's just a recomp, but the element has a slightly different shape.

Removal of matte lines and digital manipulation is visible when the plane flies behind the clouds:

The animated red line was also redone in the process - in the original I think it was animated over the map and then that was blended with the plane element. In the redone sequence it appears on top of both elements without any transparency, clearly seen in this example:

There's also a smudge visible on the matte painting above the left house in the DVD version, not present on any other transfer I've seen:

What did surprise me, is that the HD-broadcast (WOWOW) contains the original flight to Nepal sequence (despite keeping the redone clipper matte painting a few scenes earlier). However, the HD-broadcast displays clear signs of noise reduction in this particular sequence compared to the BD where some reflections in the water along with optical grain and dirt is gone.

More comparisons of other changes are coming if there's interest.

msycamore said:

More comparisons of other changes are coming if there's interest.

 Very much so. Please post more if you have them. :)

Will do.

As for the clipper taking off, it was just the different timings of the elements that confused me on what was going on. While the other comparison I posted was in sync frame-wise, this is how it appears when the actual plate and model is in sync with the original (BD):

msycamore: Thanks for this! Please keep it coming!

Do you think it would be possible for us to come up with a comprehensive list of changes?

I can pull the unaltered shots from the BD, do a match grade and a match grain, and then plug them right into my WOWOW Avisynth script.

AntcuFaalb said:

msycamore: Thanks for this! Please keep it coming!

Do you think it would be possible for us to come up with a comprehensive list of changes?

I can pull the unaltered shots from the BD, do a match grade and a match grain, and then plug them right into my WOWOW Avisynth script.

To make a hybrid of various sources sounds like a great idea. It's something I have wanted to do for some time now. A comprehensive list would not be that difficult to come up with as the changes aren't that comprehensive to begin with if color grading and audio is avoided. The way I understand it, the altered shots of the boulder and the removal of the glass reflections in the Well of Souls are present in the DVD and all HD versions. Which means these alterations so far...

* Pan American Clipper Matte Painting: DVD / BBC HD / WOWOW / Canal + HD

* Flight to Nepal: DVD (??? BBC HD / Canal + HD ???)

* Cliff Matte: BBC HD

* Lamppost Matte: BD

A couple of reframed shots in the submarine base...

Top: BD Middle: WOWOW Below: DVD

Reframed shot #1

first frame:

last frame:

Reframed shot #2

first frame:

last frame:

The DVD and HD-broadcast (WOWOW) have more or less identical framing, (the DVD is a little bit more open) it's hard to know for sure if the BD did get a tighter framing in these particular scenes or if the other transfers were opened up without having access to film prints. But if I would make a guess the framing of the BD is an alteration due to the big discrepancy, but it's of course possible it's the other way around.

msycamore said:

Which means these alterations so far...

* Pan American Clipper Matte Painting: DVD / BBC HD / WOWOW / Canal + HD

* Flight to Nepal: DVD (??? BBC HD / Canal + HD ???)

* Cliff Matte: BBC HD

* Lamppost Matte: BD

(For now) assuming color, reframing, burned-in subtitles, and audio changes are not important, then does that mean that the only altered shot in the WOWOW is the clipper one?

AntcuFaalb said:

msycamore said:

Which means these alterations so far...

* Pan American Clipper Matte Painting: DVD / BBC HD / WOWOW / Canal + HD

* Flight to Nepal: DVD (??? BBC HD / Canal + HD ???)

* Cliff Matte: BBC HD

* Lamppost Matte: BD

(For now) assuming color, reframing, burned-in subtitles, and audio changes are not important, then does that mean that the only altered shot in the WOWOW is the clipper one?

 I think the WOWOW also has the digitally painted-out pole in the bolder scene, right? And the snake glass touch-up (which they all do).

Does anyone have a comparison of the BD Lamppost Matte with the Laserdisc or something? That change seems particularly bizarre, as they rolled back most the digital tweaking from earlier releases and then introduced a new one.

ElectricTriangle said:

AntcuFaalb said:

msycamore said:

Which means these alterations so far...

* Pan American Clipper Matte Painting: DVD / BBC HD / WOWOW / Canal + HD

* Flight to Nepal: DVD (??? BBC HD / Canal + HD ???)

* Cliff Matte: BBC HD

* Lamppost Matte: BD

(For now) assuming color, reframing, burned-in subtitles, and audio changes are not important, then does that mean that the only altered shot in the WOWOW is the clipper one?

 I think the WOWOW also has the digitally painted-out pole in the bolder scene, right? And the snake glass touch-up (which they all do).

Yes, all post 2003 transfers contains boulder and snake glass touch-ups. There was apparently a HD-master without these alterations shown at one point in the form of the TV-broadcast version, see these old discussions: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Raiders-Of-The-Lost-Ark-HDTV/topic/5591/

A subtle reframing of the shot containing the South America, 1936 title have been done on the Blu-ray, which made me think the title had been redone but that doesn't seem to be the case. Looking at other transfers, the shot have some minor optical garbage present at the top and bottom of the frame so that may be the reason for the cropping in the blu-ray as it's cropped just where the built-in dirt begins. Here the Canal+ HD version might be a good substitute for de-jap.

Does anyone know where I can find these other HDTV rips? I'm desperately searching for the sans alterations 1080i ABC TV broadcast version released by the Absinth release group back in 2005.

Late to the game, I know, but I'm amazed at how many changes were done for the releases. I really enjoyed seeing the "new" HD version in IMAX a few years back and thought the gold tone was beautiful. But upon seeing the other masters, it feels "too gold". I've read that the Blu-ray is closer than the DVD in terms of colors? 

I would love to see someone do a "despecialized" for Raiders one day.

I was recently thinking about passing on my DVDs and picking up the BD set...but why is it that we come up with even more things that are different?

It now seems that a hybrid cross-format version is called for, one that would primarily use the BD and WOWOW as the basis. The snake reflection can be had from the snippet on the documentary disc (LD master, 4:3 interlaced letterbox).

The LD audio is a must. I still only watch the trilogy this way because the picture is good to outstanding, and the sound has yet to be beaten.

Are there also major differences in the sequels across DVD-WOWOW-BD?

captainsolo said:

The snake reflection can be had from the snippet on the documentary disc (LD master, 4:3 interlaced letterbox).

I'm not sure if it's present in its complete form on that featurette, I know the boulder sequence is. It was the source for the comparisons I made here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Raiders-of-the-lost-ark-bluray-and-colour-timing-changes/post/633298/#TopicPost633298

I don't think the huge drop in resolution would be a price anyone is willing to pay. I don't know, perhaps the sequences are available unaltered in much better quality in the Blu-ray set extras?

Also, in the Blu-ray, the three shots of the boulder they altered are a bit different in the way they digitally painted out the pole compared to the DVD and WOWOW. Different job with different results.

captainsolo said:

The LD audio is a must. I still only watch the trilogy this way because the picture is good to outstanding, and the sound has yet to be beaten.

Has anyone captured the original 35mm Dolby mix? Would love to see that done.

captainsolo said:

Are there also major differences in the sequels across DVD-WOWOW-BD?

I don't own the sequels in any form so someone else will need to anwer that but it wouldn't surprise me if subtle tweaks have been made on those too.

I noticed the color in TOD comes across differently, especially the deep reds inside the temple itself. Think I'll find a used BD set eventually.

It has been said the WS LD was remixed, but nothing I have found points to this. Some claimed a few sound effects were different, but I haven't found any. This track has music panning not in the DVD 5.1 which was created from the 70mm mix. Perhaps it could be either the Dolby original or abandoned VistaSonic original mix which was supposed to have mixed in stereo surrounds. Either way it would be helpful to compare against the old pan n' scan disc for differences.

I'm pretty sure the reflection is fully there. There might be a way of incorporating that single element with upscaling along with the rods but I agree the resolution loss would be very great. Of course we nitpick here, as it is part of the OT membership card. ;)