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Pro/Anti Sports Discussion

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In an attempt to no longer hijack Warbler's thread about college bowl playoffs (was that right?), I've noticed in my time here that we have members who are sports fanatics and members who... really just don't get all the hype.  Rather than turn every new sports-based topic into that, I thought it would be better for us all to just dive into a new thread and discuss the matter here.  Maybe it'll be fun.  So with that said, I'll start with Warbler's last post on the subject, as I think he said some pretty interesting things I would like to address.

I don't what to say.   To me,  watching sports is fun.  When you are talking about a team sport, the team represents some entity,  be it a city, a highschool, a college, or even a nation(the Olympics).  Its really not about pride in the 18-22 year olds, its about pride in what they represent.   When they win,  your city/school/country wins, you win.  When they lose, you lose.  When you cheer on a team for your whole life, after your father and grandfather did as well, you tend to get attached to the team.  You tend to live and die by them(not literally, but figuratively).   When the Phillies won the World Series in 2008, my family opened champagne to celebrate.   When they lost in 1993 via Mitch William's  pitch to Joe bleeping Carter,  believe it or not, I cried.  It can get to you.  Can it go too far?  you bet.  A example of this would be the people in Texas who treat highschool football like its the NFL, and put way too much pressure on the kids.    It sounds like your problems aren't will football per say, but with all sports.

First of all, it's interesting to get this insight.  I'd like to go on record as a general nonsporter that I didn't create this thread to go, "Oh, wow, look at those stupid sports fans.  Why do they take such stupid things so seriously?"  I'm genuinely interested in the perspective and analysis of the culture, even if I'm not interested in the culture itself.

So from there, it's pretty cool to hear families passing down traditions and having fun and being emotionally invested in something.

At the same time, I'd hate to pick apart the wording (for fear of getting into semantics), but Warb described things so interestingly, I have to ask about them.  "When they win... you win.  When they lose... you lose."  Why?  Okay, I kinda get this.  Like if we were to get an awesome OT release, we'd feel like we won.  When Lucasfilm pisses on our side of the fandom, it feels like we lose.  I do kinda get that.  But how do sports teams represent me like a government entity represents me?  Where exactly does that come from?  If I lived in Marin County, could I say that George Lucas represents me without getting laughed at?  Probably not.  So why am I being told that, if I live in this town, this sports team represents me?  What do I win when they win?  What do I lose when they lose?  Unlike an awesome release of the OT, if City Name Animal team wins or loses a game, what does it matter?  They'll just play another one in a week.  When you say it's pride in what they represent, what exactly do you mean?  Again, are you saying they represent me/my town/my family?  Again, how?  By that logic, couldn't a really popular anime club do the same thing?  I mean, it is all the same thing, so I suppose my big question is... out of all hobbies, interests, games... why are sports treated as something so important?

Oh, and just so you know, I don't have a "problem" with sports.  I've never been a huge follower of them, but I don't dislike them.  I never played an official team growing up, but I would play football, baseball, basketball with friends growing up.  It was a game, just like any other game.  I even have a couple of sports-induced scars on my body (one from football, one from basketball), so I'm not unfamiliar with the games or the enjoyment one can receive from partaking in them.  But I can just take it or leave it.  It's never had a big impact on me.  Like I said in the other thread, I didn't start to get annoyed with it until I got into college, and the obsession with it just became impossible to ignore/tolerate.  And it was at that point, even though I had only been marginally interested before, that I began to try to assess what the big deal was and found myself stymied.

In general, that's all I have to say right now.  I hope this can actually yield some discussion and not, "Well, if you don't get it, you don't get it."  I'd like to hear people's stories, their perspectives, from both sides.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Great post Gaff.

Gaffer Tape said:

So from there, it's pretty cool to hear families passing down traditions and having fun and being emotionally invested in something.

At the same time, I'd hate to pick apart the wording (for fear of getting into semantics), but Warb described things so interestingly, I have to ask about them.  "When they win... you win.  When they lose... you lose."  Why?  Okay, I kinda get this.  Like if we were to get an awesome OT release, we'd feel like we won.  When Lucasfilm pisses on our side of the fandom, it feels like we lose.  I do kinda get that.  But how do sports teams represent me like a government entity represents me?  Where exactly does that come from?

I blame my father.  He passed his love of Chicago sports on to me because that's where we were from.  I think some of it stems from accessibility, at least it used to.  I'm old enough that when I was growing up we had no internet or satellite TV, so most of the games that we watched, most of what I read in the paper, and most of what I listened to on radio was local team based.  Now, you don't have to be so focused on where you live.

The great thing about the changes in accessibility is I can now easily follow my teams even though I moved away.

As far as college goes, I had season tickets to basketball and by going to all the games you start to feel even more connected to the team.  When I talk with my old college buddies the conversation is usually dominiated by how the team is doing these days.

Having said all that, I understand that sports are just a diversion and not ultimately important in the grand scheme of things.  I don't get too depressed when my teams lose.  Although I might cry tears of joy if the Cubs ever win a world series again...

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I hate sports, I played some when I was a kid, but never ever understood the hype. Being a Texan, I've been told that my hatred of sports is blasphemy, perhaps. But I just don't get it and I quite honestly don't understand these guys who could tell you every name of every player in any league. They can tell you who won what last weel, last year, last decade. They can get all drove up about a some game on tv, but they can't name their US Rep or Senatore, don't know the difference between a Conservative and Liberal, don't know anything about how laws are made. Just kind of makes me wonder where their priorities are.

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Wow, I don't know why, but for some reason I could have sworn you were a prosporter, ferris.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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So, did you guys check the game out last night? It was freakin' awesome!!! Man, I love sports!

HAHA! See what I did Gaff? I just hijacked your anti-sports thread to talk about loving sports, just like I hijack every sports thread to talk about hating them. Whoooohooo!!! Screw the world! Screw everyone! Yaaaaaaaahaaahaaaahaaa!!!

Just because Ferris is a Texan, you automatically assume he is a brainless sports fantatic? I though you more open minded and tollerant than that Gaff. Guess you are just another close minded, prejudiced (statist?) bigot! ;)

I'm with you Ferris, those are my feelings exactly. I just don't get it. I just don't get it. And the world is SICK and TIRED of crackers who JUST DON'T get IT... which has always made me feel like a bit of an outsider. It often feels like people get offended, or outright disgusted when they hear I don't like sports.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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It doesn't bother me if you guys don't like sports.  But did you see the game last night?  Especially that Tiger Woods?  He's grrrrrreat!

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It may take me a post or two to get my thoughts to where they make as much sense as possible.

Unfortunately, as is usually the case, I don't have an answer that helps one side or the other, or that casts a light on one side or the other.

Where sports are concerned, I'm a baseball fanatic.  It's as big a part of my world as motorcycles are, and it has been for just about as long (I started riding when I was ten years old).  That said;  I don't follow any other sports.  I know nothing of football, basketball, hockey, or soccer. I don't follow the seasons, I don't know players, I don't know the rules. I just have no interest.

Now, with that in mind, I'll try to quantify what moves me about baseball. Since I was a kid, I've found it fascinating.  It's a chess game on a field.  It has strategy, it involves several types of skills, by different types of players, each with different strengths and weaknesses.

It's slow and methodical, there are moments where the tension builds, where the entire game - sometimes an entire season of 162 games - can hang on a single pitch, hit, runner, fielder, etc.  You have time - or is it forced to take the time? - to feel the tension.

I wish I could explain the tension when our guys are up by only a run, bottom of the eighth, two men out & a runner at second, with Pettitte staring down the number four hitter, with a full count on him. It can be gut-wrenching. Fast ball, breaking ball, cutter? - what's he going to challenge the hitter with to try to get him to make a mistake? And if he does manage to get wood on it, will Jeter be able to get to it in time?

As far as the representation of city is concerned, I don't feel that as strongly as some fans.  The game and it's history are much bigger than any one place. That said, when there are guys who become obnoxious about the contest, I tend to hope their team loses, just so they'll feel the let down.  By trying to make it a them against me contest, they bring an ugly side out of me.  I want them to be forced to be humble. Baseball isn't him against me - it's a team of professionals against another team of professionals. We're just watching it on TV. I never use the phrase I\we won - because it wasn't me.  I don't manage the team, I don't suit-up, nor do I make player personnel decisions. I'm not the Yankees - I'm a fan of the Yankees.

Along those lines, I often times root against a fan base as much as I do against a team itself. The more obnoxious or arrogant the fans, the more I want their team to lose. I used to work with a guy that was a huge Steelers fan, a borderline disturbed fan, with an unhealthy attachment to the team.  On Mondays after the Steelers won, he would come to work in a replica jersey shirt and spend all day lording the win over other sports fans - whether they were football fans or not. On Mondays after the Steelers lost, he'd call in sick.  On Tuesday when he came in, as soon as people would try to give him a taste of his own medicine, he'd claim he didn't watch the game - had to mow the yard, fix his wife's car, etc, etc.  It was a disturbing denial of reality. He completely took the fun out of sports.

After the World Series this year, I posted that I felt a loss over the season ending (I always do).  Warbler told me to suck it up - my team won the World Series. I had to clarfity two points for him - I don't own the Yankees, and baseball is bigger than any one team. I feel the loss when the season is gone.  Baseball's off-season is also my off-season. It's when I watch movies and read books.

I'm rambling, so I'll try to sew this up.  The solitude that is a pitcher on the mound, a hitter in the box, or a center fielder out there alone - there is a connection to that, which I can't explain.  It's been that way since I was a little kid. I'm a fairly solitary figure, so that solitude has always spoken to me. In a way that other sports don't. I feel a connection to it that is perfectly summed up in Field Of Dreams;

The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time.

And Warbler - yes, I've been following the Winter Meetings very closely. How could the Yankees let Matsui go!?  He was a one-man wrecking crew.  By the way - nice move getting Halladay. Man, you gotta dig a team that's so solid they can afford to let Lee go for an upgrade - as if there was one.


 

*edit*

One of my favorite baseball quotes of all time, from Emmylou Harris , in an issue of Esquire, years ago. One of the few I saved.

"I love the game. I love the history of the game. I love the fact that anything can happen but probably won't. But sometimes does."

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We are Marshall?

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Anchorhead is just a different kind of fan than I am.    But that's ok.   When the Phillies won the World Series,  I celebrated for a month until I was fired(for reasons unrelated to baseball or any other sport).    For people that live in the Philly area, winning a title is a big deal.  We don't have 27 of them,  and the Phillies winning one ended a 25 year drought of no Philly teams winning a title.  Maybe I'm not as big a fan of the baseball itself as I am the Phillies.   I don't know.   I care about the game, but no so much that I get depressed the day after my team wins The World Series.  As for not feeling the representation of the city,  I totally disagree.   I cheer for the hometown teams and no others.  To me not cheering for the Philly teams would be like not cheering for the Americans in the Olympics.   I truly can't stand the sports fans that live all their lives in the Philadelphia area and cheer for teams outside the area,  I especially hate those that cheer for the cowboys.   I call those people traitors.   But of course,  its all just in a jesting manner.    I'd never call out of work just because my team lost .  I might lord a win over someone, a little bit, but again its only in fun.    Most of the time,  I felt that fans of other teams were lording their wins over me more than me over them.   

As for Ferris' concern over the fact that people think sports are more important that who our elected officials are and how laws are passed:

I agree I agree politics is more important.  But sports is more fun.  People need a diversion from the terrible things going on around us.    Btw, I guarantee you that the there are people who can name ever alien race in the Star Trek and/or Star Wars universe but don't  know how laws are passed either.    Please also remember that there are those sports fans like to talk about politics and know how laws are passed.  btw, I can't name every single player on the Phillies or the Eagles.  

I'm not offended that you guys don't like sports, as long you don't interfere with my liking of sports or my talking about them in the forum.  If you like sports and don't want to talk about them, just  don't post in threads about sports.  As for the hijacking of my thread, its no big deal.  I just thought this subject was worthy of  thread of its own.  

As for the whole "when the team wins, we win" thing.  I just don't how or why to describe it to you why it is that way, but it is.   The team represents your city/school/country and if you have pride in your city/school/country, you want the team to win.   Yeah I know its a bunch of professionals playing another bunch of professionals, but that doesn't matter to me.  The team plays in my area, they called themselves PHILADELPHIA Phillies/Eagles.  Those are the things that matter to me.   Yes, I do use terms like we win.    Figuratively speaking, the team belongs to fans.  Yeah, Steinbrenner owns the Yankees and Lurie owns the Phillies.  But the teams belong to the fans.   When I an owner moves a team away a city, I call it theft.   That is why they cheer on the teams, because it's their team playing out there.   Without that believe, teams sports don't work. 

Btw Anchorhead, I hate the Halladay deal.    I was hoping they'd get Halladay and still keep Lee.  Giving up a whole bunch of prospects and Lee for Halladay, I just don't get it.

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In regards to the whole 'they win, we win' idea, I myself am a huge sports enthusist, but only when it's live.

With a roaring crowd, I really buy into the idea that the Dodgers somehow represent me, and every year I attend the main football game between the high school I work at and our main rivals and I feel the bloodlust and thrill of victory as strong as any facepainted maniac at a Packers game.

But for me, on television, that just doesn't work. TV sports are about the most boring thing I can think to watch, and consequently I don't 'follow' teams, becasue I can only manage a couple trips to Dodger stadium a year. I need the roar of 50,000 people (or 2,000 high school students) to make it matter. Otherwise I feel like i'm watching someone else play Nintendo.

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C3PX said:

 

It often feels like people get offended, or outright disgusted when they hear I don't like sports.

Try living in Texas, some people seriously look at me like I'm a martian when I say I hate sports, including football.

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TheBoost said:

I need the roar of 50,000 people (or 2,000 high school students) to make it matter.

Not that it's the same thing, but have you tried watching on TV with friends, especially with friends who have a rooting interest?  Or in a crowded sports bar during the playoffs where everyone is pulling for the same team?

You could also try surround sound ;-)

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*looks at Ferris as though he were a martian*

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I don't get watching sports. I have an interest in certain sports for their self-defense uses (boxing comes to mind), but watching sports is not my thing. I don't get the interest in watching people kick a ball around a field. Maybe if the object of the game was to kick each other in the balls rather than kick a ball, it might be more interesting, but as it is it's just, like who cares.

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the millions of people who watch the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL and make the players and owners rich.   they care.

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And the millions of people who watch care.  As Warb said, sports are a diversion.  A way to enjoy life.  Just like music, books, movies.  Just like Star Wars.  I don't have any problem with people not liking sports, just like I don't have any problem with people not liking Star Wars, Douglas Adams, or John Tesh (well, maybe John Tesh).  But there's nothing wrong with liking sports either.

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you have a problem with people NOT liking John Tesh?

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TV's Frink said:

And the millions of people who watch care.  As Warb said, sports are a diversion.  A way to enjoy life.  Just like music, books, movies.  Just like Star Wars.  I don't have any problem with people not liking sports, just like I don't have any problem with people not liking Star Wars, Douglas Adams, or John Tesh (well, maybe John Tesh).  But there's nothing wrong with liking sports either.

Jeez, it seems you can't dislike something on these boards without getting lectured at. Why do people keep thinking that just because you dislike something they like it means they have to defensively defend their liking it?

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A diversion... as in a way to put your brain on park and fill it with things that don't matter so you don't have much room left to worry about the things that really do matter. I used to consider that a very harmful excercise. But I guess presently I can sympathize. In this day and age, drifting through life doped up on fluff while feeling sucessful at your career and life in general is probably the ideal life for most people.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Vaderisnothayden said:

Jeez, it seems you can't dislike something on these boards without getting lectured at. Why do people keep thinking that just because you dislike something they like it means they have to defensively defend their liking it?

Lecture? Defensively defend? What the hell are you talking about?

TV's Frink said:

And the millions of people who watch care.  As Warb said, sports are a diversion.  A way to enjoy life.  Just like music, books, movies.  Just like Star Wars.  I don't have any problem with people not liking sports, just like I don't have any problem with people not liking Star Wars, Douglas Adams, or John Tesh (well, maybe John Tesh).  But there's nothing wrong with liking sports either.

Where's the lecture?  How am I being defensive?  I said there's no problem with people not liking sports, and there's no problem liking sports. Does it bother you that I like sports?  Why would you care?

C3PX said:

A diversion... as in a way to put your brain on park and fill it with things that don't matter so you don't have much room left to worry about the things that really do matter. I used to consider that a very harmful excercise. But I guess presently I can sympathize. In this day and age, drifting through life doped up on fluff while feeling sucessful at your career and life in general is probably the ideal life for most people.

C3PX, usually I enjoy your posts but you've confused me with this one.  Are you not a Star Wars fan?  Is there any difference between siting on the couch and watching Star Wars or watching sports, as far as filling your brain with things that don't matter?  Do you spend your whole life doing things that "matter?"

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Sure, I'll go ahead and condemn myself on this point too. I play video games, which serve very much the same purpose, I suppose. Though, if you add up all the hours I play per week on average, and compare it to the time it takes to ONE sports game on TV, I still have less hours of my week tied up on my mindless hobby. I can't say I spend my whole life doing things that "matter", though I wish I did far more than I do.

I think this is why people in America are typically so depressed, we put far too much stock in absolutely nothing, and not enough stock in things that should matter to us. Everyone seems perfectly happy with sports stars and celebrities making their millions and wasting it, while you have people starving to death in the world, or dying from curable illnesses.

We look at some celebrity do humanitarian work and then we cream all over them for it. "So-and-so is TRULY a wonderful person! They gave 100 thousand dollars out of all their millions to help starving children!" Things like this excite us, while it ought to make us vomit.

In an ideal world, none of us would feel the need to "escape" in some artificial way. We would find much more productive things to do with out time. Everyone would be a lot less concerned about what hot celeb is dating what other hot celeb, or who won what trophy and more concerned with their own lives and the people in them.

However, I don't feel Star Wars really fits with the same thing. Star Wars is a movie I watched a lot when I was a kid, but at this point (other than Trooperman's edit) I can't remember the last time I watched a Star Wars film. It was actually probably when Adywan released Star Wars Revisited. Even if I were to watch the entire original trilogy once a month, the number of hours I'd waste on the things would probably still be a lot less than your typical sports fan wastes watching grown men toss inflated balls around.

I am not trying to attack anyone, or make them feel bad. It is wonderful if you like sports. I just feel it is a major offender in a world obsessed with things that don't matter. Perhaps it is an easier target for me, because I have never had any interest it in.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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C3PX said:

Sure, I'll go ahead and condemn myself on this point too. I play video games, which serve very much the same purpose, I suppose. Though, if you add up all the hours I play per week on average, and compare it to the time it takes to ONE sports game on TV, I still have less hours of my week tied up on my mindless hobby.

A college basketball game takes two hours.  A pro football game takes three hours.  I'm guessing that for nearly all who play video games (I'm not one of them, though I used to be), they spend much more time per week than that on video games.  Not saying you don't, just saying you're probably in the extreme minority.

Incidentally, sports on tv usually serve as background music for me (or visual background music, if that makes sense).  I rarely sit on the couch for a three hour stretch and watch every play.  I'm usually doing other things at the same time, more important things such as paying bills, and just checking in on the game from time to time.  It's something you can do with sports that you can't do with a movie or a tv show that you haven't seen before.

C3PX said:

However, I don't feel Star Wars really fits with the same thing. Star Wars is a movie I watched a lot when I was a kid, but at this point (other than Trooperman's edit) I can't remember the last time I watched a Star Wars film. It was actually probably when Adywan released Star Wars Revisited. Even if I were to watch the entire original trilogy once a month, the number of hours I'd waste on the things would probably still be a lot less than your typical sports fan wastes watching grown men toss inflated balls around.

You can substitute any movie or tv show for Star Wars, and it doesn't have to be a movie that you watch a lot - what about movies that you watch once?  I assume you watch other movies?  The length of a college basketball game and a typical movie are pretty close (and about equal if you DVR the game).  I agree with your assesment of a typical sports fan, but I'd argue they aren't typical, they're just louder with their opinions.  Personally, I only talk about sports with people I know are interested (this thread excepted), and I certainly don't try to convert anyone.

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C3PX said:

In an ideal world, none of us would feel the need to "escape" in some artificial way.

 

For me, baseball is much more than an artificial escape. It's an appreciation for, a sort of connection to, a skill I don't have. As well as a deep interest in a contest of differing strategies. It's also a connection to the history of the game. It's hard to explain to people who don't feel it.

Interesting that video games have come into the conversation because I feel about them the same way several people here feel about sports. I don't get the devotion or interest. Sitting in front of a computer monitor for hours seems as uninteresting to me as going to a baseball game would seem to some people.

Not to mention, sitting in front of your monitor playing a video game - you have to cook your own hot dogs. ;-)

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