Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 366

CatBus said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

For those that don’t like the term colorblind:

If I were the boss of a company looking to hire an accountant, what would be wrong in being colorblind in my choice?

Nothing, it would be great. But how exactly are you going to achieve that?

By not being racist? Deciding to analyze them based upon their merit?

And this is verified how?

what do you mean?

I said I’d bail out of this discussion, but I’ll reiterate my point just this one time…

The whole “I’m color-blind” thing is supposedly an answer to charges of racism. But it’s circular logic. Being “not racist” and being “color-blind” is the same thing. I can say that I’m not racist, or I can say that I’m color-blind, but why should someone who has been oppressed believe me – just because I say so? I might not even know, because a lot of such things are subconscious. Do you think the Google guy who wrote the manifesto is color-blind? I bet he thinks he is.

Also, if I’m the CEO of some giant company, I may have to delegate the hiring process to senior employees below me. Even if I honestly want the hiring process to be “color-blind”, how am I going to guarantee that happens? How can I verify that my employees acted in a color-blind way? By accepting that it’s true if they say so? There generally need to be processes in place to ensure it is systemic and verifiable. Otherwise nobody would have any reason to believe it - it’s just words. It also wouldn’t hold up in court.

Being color-blind is an awesome goal, but again, just claiming that it’s so, isn’t compelling at all.

The claim of being color-blind is nearly always paired with the reality of being bias-blind.

you mean being blind to your own bias? Well, again I ask what the heck should you do? The best I can do is try to ignore skin color as much as possible and hire based on merit, and skills and qualifications. The best accountant gets the job.

Jeebus said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

For those that don’t like the term colorblind:

If I were the boss of a company looking to hire an accountant, what would be wrong in being colorblind in my choice?

Nothing, it would be great. But how exactly are you going to achieve that?

By not being racist? Deciding to analyze them based upon their merit?

And this is verified how?

what do you mean?

Also, if I’m the CEO of some giant company, I may have to delegate the hiring process to senior employees below me. Even if I honestly want the hiring process to be “color-blind”, how am I going to guarantee that happens? How can I verify that my employees acted in a color-blind way? By accepting that it’s true if they say so? There generally need to be processes in place to ensure it is systemic and verifiable. Otherwise nobody would have any reason to believe it - it’s just words. It also wouldn’t hold up in court.

Maybe everyone could wear masks 😛

You’re making a joke, but it might not be a bad idea. One could have the applicants in another room and answer questions view a computer. Someone would know the race of the applicants, but not the person or people deciding who is hired. Their names would also have to be concealed as some names are more likely to belong to a certain race than others.

yhwx said:

yhwx said:

File under “Links that Frink already posted but are relevant to the conversation:”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-owens/4-problematic-statements-white-people-make-about-race_b_9212864.html

The part pertaining to “I don’t see color”/“color blind:”

1. “I Don’t See Color.”

On the surface, this might seem like a harmless statement affirming that race doesn’t matter to you one way or another. But what it’s really doing is claiming that all of us are the same - which isn’t true. Because even though we are all human and are all made of the same stuff, it is our responsibility to acknowledge that, since we do exist within a societal system of racism, the color of our skin can and does dictate the way each of us experiences life.

To state that there is no difference between a white person and a black person is to completely erase the black person’s experience of oppression in today’s society - and that’s not helpful.

What to say instead: “Though I believe every human deserves equal rights, I recognize that people of color have had very different experiences of life than I have, due to the struggles they have endured based on the color of their skin.”

This is doesn’t really answer the question as to how to put that idea into practical use, like when a small company is hiring an accountant.

yhwx said:

This is insanity.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/gallery/graphic-pedestrians-struck-by-car-after-unite-the-right-rally/collection_9ad95178-7f81-11e7-ba2b-5f75148f6c79.html

yes it is *sigh*

double post.

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

SilverWook said:

yhwx said:

In other news:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/world/asia/trump-guam-governor-phone-call.html

HAGÅTÑA, Guam — If there’s one thing that Guam does not have to worry about while the tiny island is in the nuclear cross hairs of North Korea, it’s tourism, President Trump told the island’s governor in a phone call made public on Saturday.

The threat by North Korea’s leader, Kim Jong-un, to create “an enveloping fire” around the tiny United States territory in the Western Pacific will boost Guam tourism “tenfold,” Mr. Trump said in the recorded conversation with Gov. Eddie Calvo.

The recording was put on the Republican governor’s Facebook page and other social media accounts.

Mr. Trump said: “I have to tell you, you have become extremely famous all over the world. They are talking about Guam; and they’re talking about you.” And when it comes to tourism, he added, “I can say this: You’re going to go up, like, tenfold with the expenditure of no money.”

In other other news:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/12/542982015/home-to-university-of-virginia-prepares-for-violence-at-white-nationalist-rally

Virginia’s governor has declared a state of emergency amid violent clashes between hundreds of protestors in Charlottesville, Va.

The move comes ahead of a white nationalist rally planned in the small town to protest plans to remove a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from a city park. Saturday morning, protesters and counter-protesters faced off and kicked and punched, hurled water bottles and deployed chemical sprays against each other.

The declaration by Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe was made in order to “aid state response to violence” at the rally in the city about 120 miles southwest of Washington, D.C. The city’s manager also declared a local emergency and police ordered people to disperse from the area around the statue, according to The Associated Press.

The “Unite the Right” rally is expected to draw a lot of people from out of town. It follows last month’s Ku Klux Klan rally that drew about 50 Klan members and about 1,000 counter-protesters.

After the violent outbursts, politicians tweeted their disdain at the events in Charlottesville. House Speaker Paul Ryan called the views of the white nationalists “repugnant,” and called for Americans to unite against “this kind of vile bigotry.”

Guam, come for the beautiful beaches and clear blue waters.

Stay for the impending nuclear strikes.

I hate to say, I am sure I am going to get called crazy, but I think if that nut fires a nuke anywere near Guam, I think it is time to nuke N. Korea, especially wherever the nut is located.

Great way to totally annihilate hundreds of thousands to millions of people, North Korean and otherwise.

Would you rather them get annihilated or part of America? I’d like to get this nut stopped before he can nuke Los Angles or San Francisco.

Maybe just use enough nukes to get the leader and knock out N. Korea’s nuclear capabilities.

We shouldn’t pre-emptively nuke North Korea for a few reasons;

1. The nuclear fallout would devastate the area, meaning China and South Korea.

2. We don’t know where all of their missile sites are, and at least some are underground. If we don’t get all of their missile sites, which we won’t, they will respond with their nuclear arsenal.

3. China would likely take the side of North Korea, and may even respond with their own nuclear arsenal.

4. The second we attack North Korea, they’re going to attack Seoul. We’re talking a massive artillery strike.

For further reading:

https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-USA-drop-nuclear-bombs-on-North-Korea-2016–17

SilverWook said:

Warbler said:

SilverWook said:

yhwx said:

In other news:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/world/asia/trump-guam-governor-phone-call.html

HAGÅTÑA, Guam — If there’s one thing that Guam does not have to worry about while the tiny island is in the nuclear cross hairs of North Korea, it’s tourism, President Trump told the island’s governor in a phone call made public on Saturday.

The threat by North Korea’s leader, Kim Jong-un, to create “an enveloping fire” around the tiny United States territory in the Western Pacific will boost Guam tourism “tenfold,” Mr. Trump said in the recorded conversation with Gov. Eddie Calvo.

The recording was put on the Republican governor’s Facebook page and other social media accounts.

Mr. Trump said: “I have to tell you, you have become extremely famous all over the world. They are talking about Guam; and they’re talking about you.” And when it comes to tourism, he added, “I can say this: You’re going to go up, like, tenfold with the expenditure of no money.”

In other other news:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/12/542982015/home-to-university-of-virginia-prepares-for-violence-at-white-nationalist-rally

Virginia’s governor has declared a state of emergency amid violent clashes between hundreds of protestors in Charlottesville, Va.

The move comes ahead of a white nationalist rally planned in the small town to protest plans to remove a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from a city park. Saturday morning, protesters and counter-protesters faced off and kicked and punched, hurled water bottles and deployed chemical sprays against each other.

The declaration by Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe was made in order to “aid state response to violence” at the rally in the city about 120 miles southwest of Washington, D.C. The city’s manager also declared a local emergency and police ordered people to disperse from the area around the statue, according to The Associated Press.

The “Unite the Right” rally is expected to draw a lot of people from out of town. It follows last month’s Ku Klux Klan rally that drew about 50 Klan members and about 1,000 counter-protesters.

After the violent outbursts, politicians tweeted their disdain at the events in Charlottesville. House Speaker Paul Ryan called the views of the white nationalists “repugnant,” and called for Americans to unite against “this kind of vile bigotry.”

Guam, come for the beautiful beaches and clear blue waters.

Stay for the impending nuclear strikes.

I hate to say, I am sure I am going to get called crazy, but I think if that nut fires a nuke anywere near Guam, I think it is time to nuke N. Korea, especially wherever the nut is located.

The problem is South Korea is right next door, along with our military. Nuclear fallout doesn’t respect borders.

true.

Warbler said:

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

SilverWook said:

yhwx said:

In other news:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/world/asia/trump-guam-governor-phone-call.html

HAGÅTÑA, Guam — If there’s one thing that Guam does not have to worry about while the tiny island is in the nuclear cross hairs of North Korea, it’s tourism, President Trump told the island’s governor in a phone call made public on Saturday.

The threat by North Korea’s leader, Kim Jong-un, to create “an enveloping fire” around the tiny United States territory in the Western Pacific will boost Guam tourism “tenfold,” Mr. Trump said in the recorded conversation with Gov. Eddie Calvo.

The recording was put on the Republican governor’s Facebook page and other social media accounts.

Mr. Trump said: “I have to tell you, you have become extremely famous all over the world. They are talking about Guam; and they’re talking about you.” And when it comes to tourism, he added, “I can say this: You’re going to go up, like, tenfold with the expenditure of no money.”

In other other news:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/12/542982015/home-to-university-of-virginia-prepares-for-violence-at-white-nationalist-rally

Virginia’s governor has declared a state of emergency amid violent clashes between hundreds of protestors in Charlottesville, Va.

The move comes ahead of a white nationalist rally planned in the small town to protest plans to remove a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from a city park. Saturday morning, protesters and counter-protesters faced off and kicked and punched, hurled water bottles and deployed chemical sprays against each other.

The declaration by Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe was made in order to “aid state response to violence” at the rally in the city about 120 miles southwest of Washington, D.C. The city’s manager also declared a local emergency and police ordered people to disperse from the area around the statue, according to The Associated Press.

The “Unite the Right” rally is expected to draw a lot of people from out of town. It follows last month’s Ku Klux Klan rally that drew about 50 Klan members and about 1,000 counter-protesters.

After the violent outbursts, politicians tweeted their disdain at the events in Charlottesville. House Speaker Paul Ryan called the views of the white nationalists “repugnant,” and called for Americans to unite against “this kind of vile bigotry.”

Guam, come for the beautiful beaches and clear blue waters.

Stay for the impending nuclear strikes.

I hate to say, I am sure I am going to get called crazy, but I think if that nut fires a nuke anywere near Guam, I think it is time to nuke N. Korea, especially wherever the nut is located.

Great way to totally annihilate hundreds of thousands to millions of people, North Korean and otherwise.

Would you rather them get annihilated or part of America? I’d like to get this nut stopped before he can nuke Los Angles or San Francisco.

I’d prefer we deescalate immediately. What incentive would they have to preemptively strike us? Even if Kim is insane, he must know that striking us would end in the utter annihilation of his country.

Maybe just use enough nukes to get the leader and knock out N. Korea’s nuclear capabilities.

I wish, but it’s just not possible to knock out all of their nuclear capabilities before they’re able to fire back.

moviefreakedmind said:

You have to see someone face to face to hire them. It’s a way to make sure they aren’t socially inept if the job requires good social skills.

would being an accountant require good social skills?

moviefreakedmind said:

The United States is capable of annihilating an entire country without using nuclear weapons.

that might require sending in the troops, in other words a full scale war, I don’t know if we are ready for that.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

For those that don’t like the term colorblind:

If I were the boss of a company looking to hire an accountant, what would be wrong in being colorblind in my choice?

Nothing, it would be great. But how exactly are you going to achieve that?

By not being racist? Deciding to analyze them based upon their merit?

And this is verified how?

what do you mean?

I said I’d bail out of this discussion, but I’ll reiterate my point just this one time…

The whole “I’m color-blind” thing is supposedly an answer to charges of racism. But it’s circular logic. Being “not racist” and being “color-blind” is the same thing. I can say that I’m not racist, or I can say that I’m color-blind, but why should someone who has been oppressed believe me – just because I say so? I might not even know, because a lot of such things are subconscious. Do you think the Google guy who wrote the manifesto is color-blind? I bet he thinks he is.

Also, if I’m the CEO of some giant company, I may have to delegate the hiring process to senior employees below me. Even if I honestly want the hiring process to be “color-blind”, how am I going to guarantee that happens? How can I verify that my employees acted in a color-blind way? By accepting that it’s true if they say so? There generally need to be processes in place to ensure it is systemic and verifiable. Otherwise nobody would have any reason to believe it - it’s just words. It also wouldn’t hold up in court.

Being color-blind is an awesome goal, but again, just claiming that it’s so, isn’t compelling at all.

The claim of being color-blind is nearly always paired with the reality of being bias-blind.

you mean being blind to your own bias?

More blind to all biases in general.

please explain.

Well, again I ask what the heck should you do? The best I can do is try to ignore skin color as much as possible and hire based on merit, and skills and qualifications. The best accountant gets the job.

On another but still related note: Studies have shown that when resumes were submitted to employers with the exact same qualifications and contents but the male name being swapped for a feminine one, the one with the feminine name didn’t get the same job opportunities.

clearly wherever these resumes were submitted to, they were not being gender-blind.

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

SilverWook said:

yhwx said:

In other news:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/world/asia/trump-guam-governor-phone-call.html

HAGÅTÑA, Guam — If there’s one thing that Guam does not have to worry about while the tiny island is in the nuclear cross hairs of North Korea, it’s tourism, President Trump told the island’s governor in a phone call made public on Saturday.

The threat by North Korea’s leader, Kim Jong-un, to create “an enveloping fire” around the tiny United States territory in the Western Pacific will boost Guam tourism “tenfold,” Mr. Trump said in the recorded conversation with Gov. Eddie Calvo.

The recording was put on the Republican governor’s Facebook page and other social media accounts.

Mr. Trump said: “I have to tell you, you have become extremely famous all over the world. They are talking about Guam; and they’re talking about you.” And when it comes to tourism, he added, “I can say this: You’re going to go up, like, tenfold with the expenditure of no money.”

In other other news:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/12/542982015/home-to-university-of-virginia-prepares-for-violence-at-white-nationalist-rally

Virginia’s governor has declared a state of emergency amid violent clashes between hundreds of protestors in Charlottesville, Va.

The move comes ahead of a white nationalist rally planned in the small town to protest plans to remove a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from a city park. Saturday morning, protesters and counter-protesters faced off and kicked and punched, hurled water bottles and deployed chemical sprays against each other.

The declaration by Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe was made in order to “aid state response to violence” at the rally in the city about 120 miles southwest of Washington, D.C. The city’s manager also declared a local emergency and police ordered people to disperse from the area around the statue, according to The Associated Press.

The “Unite the Right” rally is expected to draw a lot of people from out of town. It follows last month’s Ku Klux Klan rally that drew about 50 Klan members and about 1,000 counter-protesters.

After the violent outbursts, politicians tweeted their disdain at the events in Charlottesville. House Speaker Paul Ryan called the views of the white nationalists “repugnant,” and called for Americans to unite against “this kind of vile bigotry.”

Guam, come for the beautiful beaches and clear blue waters.

Stay for the impending nuclear strikes.

I hate to say, I am sure I am going to get called crazy, but I think if that nut fires a nuke anywere near Guam, I think it is time to nuke N. Korea, especially wherever the nut is located.

Great way to totally annihilate hundreds of thousands to millions of people, North Korean and otherwise.

Would you rather them get annihilated or part of America? I’d like to get this nut stopped before he can nuke Los Angles or San Francisco.

I’d prefer we deescalate immediately. What incentive would they have to preemptively strike us? Even if Kim is insane, he must know that striking us would end in the utter annihilation of his country.

Does he care?

Maybe just use enough nukes to get the leader and knock out N. Korea’s nuclear capabilities.

I wish, but it’s just not possible to knock out all of their nuclear capabilities before they’re able to fire back.

All I know is, we can’t let him touch Guam and get away with it.

I think Trump should pelt North Korea with Golf Courses.
It’s the only way to be sure.

Do you think it would work?

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

For those that don’t like the term colorblind:

If I were the boss of a company looking to hire an accountant, what would be wrong in being colorblind in my choice?

Nothing, it would be great. But how exactly are you going to achieve that?

By not being racist? Deciding to analyze them based upon their merit?

And this is verified how?

what do you mean?

I said I’d bail out of this discussion, but I’ll reiterate my point just this one time…

The whole “I’m color-blind” thing is supposedly an answer to charges of racism. But it’s circular logic. Being “not racist” and being “color-blind” is the same thing. I can say that I’m not racist, or I can say that I’m color-blind, but why should someone who has been oppressed believe me – just because I say so? I might not even know, because a lot of such things are subconscious. Do you think the Google guy who wrote the manifesto is color-blind? I bet he thinks he is.

Also, if I’m the CEO of some giant company, I may have to delegate the hiring process to senior employees below me. Even if I honestly want the hiring process to be “color-blind”, how am I going to guarantee that happens? How can I verify that my employees acted in a color-blind way? By accepting that it’s true if they say so? There generally need to be processes in place to ensure it is systemic and verifiable. Otherwise nobody would have any reason to believe it - it’s just words. It also wouldn’t hold up in court.

Being color-blind is an awesome goal, but again, just claiming that it’s so, isn’t compelling at all.

So just what the heck would you suggest then?

That was my question to you! I didn’t claim to be the expert.

Well below you claim to be a more of an expert than I am.

That said, I have served over the past year as my department’s equal opportunity representative in hiring of faculty. For this, I had to go through a lot of training. So I know SOME things about the subject - and, like most things, the more you know, the more you realize you don’t know.

You say there’s not much we can do except try the best we can – well that’s NOT TRUE at all. There is a LOT that can and is being done. And it starts by educating oneself on potential sources of hidden bias, and trying to avoid them. One simple example of something to be wary of, is trying to decide how well a candidate will “fit in”. That is pervasive in many hiring situations, and often leads to racial and gender bias, without the interviewers even realizing it.

So I shouldn’t worry about how well the applicant would fit in with the others?

Another is to replace the mindset of trying to ignore race/gender, with instead educating oneself about issues and situations that could arise in an interview.

other than the pregnant woman, what situations do you men?

That is, actively trying to identify patterns ahead of time that can lead to bias, rather than trying to avoid the issue and assume that by being “blind”, it won’t happen. That leads to “winging it”… it’s better to be prepared. For a simple example, suppose a candidate shows up and she’s obviously eight months pregnant? What are you going to do? You should be prepared for that possibility, and many others.

So I shouldn’t be concerned at all that if I hire this person, she is going to need a leave of absence soon?

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

darthrush said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Warbler said:

For those that don’t like the term colorblind:

If I were the boss of a company looking to hire an accountant, what would be wrong in being colorblind in my choice?

Nothing, it would be great. But how exactly are you going to achieve that?

By not being racist? Deciding to analyze them based upon their merit?

And this is verified how?

what do you mean?

I said I’d bail out of this discussion, but I’ll reiterate my point just this one time…

The whole “I’m color-blind” thing is supposedly an answer to charges of racism. But it’s circular logic. Being “not racist” and being “color-blind” is the same thing. I can say that I’m not racist, or I can say that I’m color-blind, but why should someone who has been oppressed believe me – just because I say so? I might not even know, because a lot of such things are subconscious. Do you think the Google guy who wrote the manifesto is color-blind? I bet he thinks he is.

Also, if I’m the CEO of some giant company, I may have to delegate the hiring process to senior employees below me. Even if I honestly want the hiring process to be “color-blind”, how am I going to guarantee that happens? How can I verify that my employees acted in a color-blind way? By accepting that it’s true if they say so? There generally need to be processes in place to ensure it is systemic and verifiable. Otherwise nobody would have any reason to believe it - it’s just words. It also wouldn’t hold up in court.

Being color-blind is an awesome goal, but again, just claiming that it’s so, isn’t compelling at all.

The claim of being color-blind is nearly always paired with the reality of being bias-blind.

you mean being blind to your own bias? Well, again I ask what the heck should you do? The best I can do is try to ignore skin color as much as possible and hire based on merit, and skills and qualifications. The best accountant gets the job.

Well, the first step is to be as aware as possible of all of your biases. Including the ones you didn’t think you had at first. The very first baby-step is to stop pretending you’re color-blind.

What makes you think I am pretending. Maybe I truly don’t care if the person I hire is black or white or whatever. Maybe I only care about how good an accountant the person is.

Then there’s a matter of engaging with people who specialize in this sort of thing, attend training seminars, talk to people, listen to people, and so on. Yes, sensitivity training may often be an overscripted feel-good exercise even most of the time, but there’s often some nuggets of useful information if you pay attention. Such is any corporate seminar.

I suppose it is possible something could be learned from these things.

The next thing is to do what you can to counteract your biases. Have your hiring decisions done by a team that might be able to balance out each others’ biases, use tiebreakers that counterbalance your acknowledged biases, that sort of thing.

You mean put together a team that is half black, half white, half male, half female?

Admitting you’ve been touched by racism is basically admitting you’re an American. People have survived worse.

What do you mean by touched by racism?