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Info: New Spartacus restoration. Interesting info...

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Robert Harris started a thread on the home theater forum talking about his involvement in the latest restoration of Spartacus.

They went back to the original (but faded) 8-perf 35mm elements and the techniques used to get the color back were interesting. According to him:

The original negatives are scanned, and the yellow dye layer is dropped, leaving the magenta and cyan, which are also both faded to varying degrees, but can be massaged into place.

To be a bit simplistic, the Y master record, which has different gamma and sizing than the Oneg is then scanned, maneuvered into position, and mated with the two extant dye layers.

There are different means of registering, but it must be… Perfect.


One further piece of information that I can offer.  Spartacus is an extremely complex restoration, for which Universal pulled out all the stops.

Different shots / sequences in the film are derived from a mix of:

A.  OCN + Y

B.  Y + C + M

C.  C + M + M (at a different gamma) to substitute for a missing Y

All of this must then be conformed to work together very seamlessly."

All of the information is really interesting, you should take a look and get ready to pick your jaws up off the floor when you see the comparaison with the older bluray:

http://screenshotcom…mparison/138930
http://screenshotcom…mparison/138929
http://screenshotcom…mparison/138932
http://screenshotcom…mparison/138933
http://screenshotcom…mparison/138934

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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So pleased to see Universal finally giving this film the treatment it deserves. This restoration is my most anticipated along with "My Fair Lady" without question.

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Grain. Beautiful, beautiful grain. How I've missed you so.

It looks more and more like 4K is driving a stake into the heart of the waxy DNR trend. This is as revelatory as Lawrence of Arabia. (Off-topic, I still don't understand why the HD master of the original Harris restoration of LoA, the one that was used for every DVD release and HDTV broadcast, looked so cloudy and diffused. I swear I heard that the theatrical re-release prints were sharper.)

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TServo2049 said:

Grain. Beautiful, beautiful grain. How I've missed you so.

It looks more and more like 4K is driving a stake into the heart of the waxy DNR trend. This is as revelatory as Lawrence of Arabia. (Off-topic, I still don't understand why the HD master of the original Harris restoration of LoA, the one that was used for every DVD release and HDTV broadcast, looked so cloudy and diffused. I swear I heard that the theatrical re-release prints were sharper.)

 I think for LoA and Spartacus, the original restorations were photochemical in nature and faded elements are impossible to recover through those means. They had to go up the ladder and use elements that were further away from the negative. 

With digital restorations, you have much more power and so they were able to use the original negatives for a much sharper picture. 

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Wow, loving all that grain and extra detail in the new restoration, with more image in the frame and much improved colour seperation!

The only issue I can see in those screencaps are the overall colours and fleshtones that lean too much towards blue, removing the blue tint would definately make this look better colourwise IMHO.

The improvement in detail really is amazing, I just hope the leon 4k remaster coming out gets treated as well as this has, that really would make my year!

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IMO, an improperly colored 4K version with grain is better than a more correctly-colored 2K version with DNR. We can change the color if we want. We can't reverse DNR.

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TServo2049 said:

I swear I heard that the theatrical re-release prints were sharper.

The theatrical restoration prints of Lawrence of Arabia had almost none of the issues that the all video transfers have had until the 4K. I've seen it in 70 millimeter many times.

“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”

“You don't do ‘Star Wars’ in Dobly.”

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TServo2049 said:

IMO, an improperly colored 4K version with grain is better than a more correctly-colored 2K version with DNR. We can change the color if we want. We can't reverse DNR.

Can't agree more!

I'd love the upcoming Leon: The Professional 4k release to have both great colours and lovely natural fine grain with lots of detail but if push comes to shove whats most important to me is the latter, I just hope that they give as much attention to Leon in terms of maintaining fine grain, overall detail and fixing the boosted contrast of the previous Leon release. I can only hope.

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I wonder, will Rec.2020 allow for higher contrast without crushing out detail? I like the contrast of 35mm prints, and I know 35mm prints also lose detail from contrast increase (and don't usually have "true" black levels), but we all know how awful increased contrast looks in 8-bit, Rec.709 HD.

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TServo2049 said:

IMO, an improperly colored 4K version with grain is better than a more correctly-colored 2K version with DNR.

Would be nice if they could just "get it right", though =) Do the studios think that blue/teal push somehow widens their target audience?

Not to say that I agree that these Spartacus shots look too blue, they just look like they're timed to what's on the film, and not to what would have been on the actual screen. Setting the TV to "warm" would give it a good boost.

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In the thread I linked to Robert Harris said that they timed the restoration to an original IB film print. 

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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I've always felt that the colours of the US DVD release shown on caps-a-holic looked the most 'right' to me:

Blanket blue tints seem more like a modern digital grading phenomenon. Is there any evidence or images out there on the internet, apart from the Robert Harris thread, that supports that Sparticus on the original IB film print looked as blue as those remastered screencaps suggest?

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THe Criterion was also timed to match dye transfer prints so the new restored version should resemble it. The amount of work and effort being put in is still staggering to me since for so long Universal has not cared about it whatsoever. If they can continue this trend maybe they can ally reverse their awful standing. And of course redo their Hitchcock catalog.

The only thing I've worried about is the sound. The restoration was done and completed in Dolby surround which was the format of 1991. The DVD upped this to a discrete 5.1 but was the same otherwise. I don't know if this faithfully reproduced what the large format presentation would have so I assume they will redo it.

hopefully they stick with the gorgeous Saul Bass artwork Criterion utilized.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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captainsolo said:

The only thing I've worried about is the sound. The restoration was done and completed in Dolby surround which was the format of 1991. The DVD upped this to a discrete 5.1 but was the same otherwise. I don't know if this faithfully reproduced what the large format presentation would have so I assume they will redo it.

hopefully they stick with the gorgeous Saul Bass artwork Criterion utilized.

 Well from the HTF thread it sounds like they remixed the sound from 5 front, 1 surround to 3 front 4 surround and LFE (aka 7.1). So there is a change but I think Harris I think has learned from Vertigo and tries to be a faithful to the original as possible. The man is a saint to film fans.

Even if the original had DS it would of been mixed discretely first before running through a DS encoder.

3.  What about the sound?  Do we have 5.1 or something else?

 

7.1

So what does that mean?  The original surround was mono.   It's now 7.1.   So are they sending the mono to all four surrounds or has it been remixed?
 
And what did they do with LC and RC?
 
Thanks.


LC and RC are now phantom channels. They would be totally unnecessary in a home theater environment. 

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Why is there a need to mix stuff in 7.1 when it was never intended for it? I'm still not really a fan because I've always felt there should be a rear center plus on old roadshow epics like Spartacus the surround was mono only and at the time would have been largely limited at best. I can understand losing the two front channels because there's no modern equivalent way to play them back. what always gets lost though is all the directional dialogue effects and panning which is ridiculous. And of course nutty me would wish they'd include the mono mix just for comparisons sake.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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captainsolo said:

Why is there a need to mix stuff in 7.1 when it was never intended for it? I'm still not really a fan because I've always felt there should be a rear center plus on old roadshow epics like Spartacus the surround was mono only and at the time would have been largely limited at best. I can understand losing the two front channels because there's no modern equivalent way to play them back. what always gets lost though is all the directional dialogue effects and panning which is ridiculous. And of course nutty me would wish they'd include the mono mix just for comparisons sake.

 I get what you're saying, but I'm sure there are people who have speakers attached to their walls and they can't move them to the center for a few feature films. 

The best way (compromise) is to emulate it the best they can to the modern speaker setup, much like Hairy-Hen's 5.1 mix of Star Wars. Obviously we can't have two discrete bass channels, but his is the best we're going to get for a while...

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Wow, those new captures are incredible. I am really looking forward to seeing what comes from this restoration. I have always loved the film, and while Criterion’s project was a huge leap forward for its time and a valiant effort in film restoration, it is fantastic to see how the opening up of the 4k field is really going to offer yet another improved way to enjoy all these classic films. The Criterion version was the first Criterion I ever shelled out for back in the day (and it was crazy big bucks at the time too), and one of the first DVDs I ever owned. Seeing the amount of detail though with this improvement, especially in the background like in the last shot comparison, I am thrilled for the possibilities. Of course, a properly colour-timed version would be ideal - I have no idea what judgements they are choosing for these samples - but that might still come. I wonder how/if Universal is working this, if there is any collaboration on the title with Criterion and their restoration work/team. Thanks for sharing this, really great to see.

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Just wanted to say after spinning this again: The new disc is perfection aside from not having all the Criterion features. The 7.1 is the best sounding version ever completed as it perfectly recreates the original panning sound design of the six track release-and far better so than any previous mix including, LD, matrixed versions and the discrete 5.1.

If you don’t have this already what are you waiting for?

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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captainsolo said:

Just wanted to say after spinning this again: The new disc is perfection aside from not having all the Criterion features. The 7.1 is the best sounding version ever completed as it perfectly recreates the original panning sound design of the six track release-and far better so than any previous mix including, LD, matrixed versions and the discrete 5.1.

If you don’t have this already what are you waiting for?

Because I do already own this superb remastered Blu-ray and have the Criterion DVDs as Discs 2 & 3. Disc 4 is the OST CD, not the multi-disc one though but the single.