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Man beheaded by al-qaeda and video published on internet — Page 3
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
Darth Chaltab, one of the few conservatives it's worth talking to.
First, it's stupid because it's a childish definition. There is no evil, not even in SW, there's always a motivation, a reason.
Second, I'll never EVER stop believing in peace. I mean, what is your definition of an ideal world? A non-ending war? I'm fighting for the ideal world, the world I want our children to be raised in.
No it is not stupid or childish! What planet--what version of Earth do you live on man?
Evil is very real. It is freakin' obvious to anyone with half a brain.
I'm sorry if I sound rude, but what you are saying is pure lunacy. Is Osama bin-Laden not evil? Was Hitler not evil? Denying the existence of evil is denying the very nature of the universe. The problem with your utopian idealism is that you are being a relativist. If there is no real evil then there is never a good reason to go to war. All wars of the past then have been selfish and pointless.
It is obvious to me that you will never understand my position--at least until you understand the nature of evil. Yes, often people have motivations for doing evil things, but often they do not.
Obviously, a never ending war isn't any decent person's ideal world. In a world ideal as it will ever get this side of eternity evil will always be confronted and dealt with where-ever it is. Whether it be the perversions of perverts like Marolyn Manson or certain Catholic priests, or the unbridled sadism of Saddaam Hussein, evil wouldn't be ignored.
Of course, in the truly ideal world there would be no evil.
(And no, I am not saying we need to kill Marolyn Mansion, just using "him" as an example. That guy needs some serious help.)
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I hate Marlyn Manson and his "music", but he's not "evil" nor a pervert, he only poses that way so he can sell albums, it's all publicity. The only truly fucked up artist I've seen that sold albums and made some money from his "music" (and I use the word music with extreme care here) is G.G. Allin.
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Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.
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And although there is certainly usually circumstances causing people to do evil things, that doesn't remove personal responsiblity. I mean, does Saddam Hussein have any valid reason for murdering his own people? If you say he does then you must be insane.
Did Hitler have a valid reason to murder millions of Jews in sadistic ways? Of course not. I know that these examples are extreme but there are people out there who just enjoy killing. It's really scary.
I once read that there was a disturbed woman somewhere here in America that was on top of a building and wanting to kill herself by jumping off. The cops/rescue people blocked the road and backed up trafic. Unbelievablely there were people in their vehicles who actually started screaming to her "JUMP B**CH!" She jumped. Thankfully she wasn't killed but..
The only motivation here was pure selfishness. Because of there own inconvenience, these sick people started this and she could have killed herself. If that isn't evil, then please tell me what is.
I'm done for now.
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Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
Ultimately that is our choice, but we may feel so strongly that what we are doing is the right thing that we are blinded to the consequences of our actions; also, the pressure on us to go in a certain direction may be so strong that we never consider making any other possible decision.
People tend to forget that after the 911 bombings, bush could have gone on a massive manhunt, bombed iraq, bomed wherever, and the american people would have been right behind him. The country was screaming bloody murder, perffectly understandably. But Bush acted with remarkable foresight. I remember how impressed people were with him at the time that he didn't go off in "a certain direction". He measured the options and picked the best one. The whole point of democracy is that the people are represented. If Bush had just laid down and let it lie, it would have been political suicide! Bush had to do something, but he waited until things calmed down. If he had wanted to go into Iraq immediatly after the bombing, for whatever reason, real or pretense people would have been behind him 100%. (on a note, I agree totally with Chaltab here, I doubt he was lying and really thought there were bombs. Nobody gets to be president of the US as a total and complete moron, which is what it would take to go to war over a false pretense) However, that would have pissed off the world, AMerica would have looked like one of those revenge charavcters from old dramas.
Was he justified to go into Iraq? Personally, for the reasons he gave I don't think so. There was not enough evidence, yada, yada, yada, you've heard it all, so no. Was he right to kick Saddam out? Yes, definetly, that is the only thing that could possibly redeem the invasion. If that was one of the reasons for going in though, they could have put more thought into what would happen afterwards.
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Originally posted by: Ricarleite
Second, I'll never EVER stop believing in peace. I mean, what is your definition of an ideal world? A non-ending war? I'm fighting for the ideal world, the world I want our children to be raised in.
Ricarleite, world peace is easy to talk about, but impossible to attain. First of all, in an ideal world, we would all be communist. The failure of communism in the USSR is proof that pure communism is a dream. People aren't perfect. There will always be evil people regardless of whether or not people believe in evil. People who don't believe in the concept of good and evil have never been on the recieving end of true horror. Do you think the iraqies would deny the existance of evil? The dipute on evil is the handiwork of stuffed up philosiphers who have no true concept of the horrors of the world.
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Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
There are certain pressures within culture and society that work on us, leading us to either do good or evil
GundarkHunter, every action people make is a concious desicion to perform that action. Society may put pressures on us, but the action that we finally choose is in the end, our desicion.
edit: no names in quotes
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Originally posted by: Skipper
Ricarleite, world peace is easy to talk about, but impossible to attain. First of all, in an ideal world, we would all be communist. The failure of communism in the USSR is proof that pure communism is a dream. People aren't perfect. There will always be evil people regardless of whether or not people believe in evil. People who don't believe in the concept of good and evil have never been on the recieving end of true horror. Do you think the iraqies would deny the existance of evil? The dipute on evil is the handiwork of stuffed up philosiphers who have no true concept of the horrors of the world.
So what's the point, if we'll never live in a world that is worth living in? What's the point, if we'll forever live in a world filled with war and "evil"? Let's all kill ourselves right now, there's no point in continuing this madness called the human race...
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QuoteThat's a rather negative way of looking at it.
Originally posted by: ricarleite
So what's the point, if we'll never live in a world that is worth living in? What's the point, if we'll forever live in a world filled with war and "evil"? Let's all kill ourselves right now, there's no point in continuing this madness called the human race...
I think a better way to put it would be to say that humans are not perfect, and never will be. We must survive because we strive to better ourselves.
Earlier in the thread, you asked what the extremists motivation was for wanting us all dead. I skimmed over a lot of the thread, so if someone already answered, take this reenforcement to what they wrote.
The hate us, they want us dead, they want our families dead, they want our houses burned to the ground (thanks Mr. DeNiro) simply because of who and what we are. Their extreme view of Islam says to them that our ways are not right, and that if they do not destroy us, that our ways will corrupt them.
Example: Do you recall how things were in Taliban controlled Afghanistan?? The women were covered head-to-toe, were not allowed to be educated, had no power, etc.
What do we do in the west (US, Europe, etc.)?
A woman is the National Security Advisor, one of the most important positions in the US government, and she is an extremely educated person.
And what about how our women are clothed?? It would be an extremist's nightmare to visit a California beach.
The Islam extremists are similar to the "bible-thumpers" of the United States, except to my knowledge, the bible-thumpers don't carry out terrorist acts (I could be wrong). They both have extreme views on how society must be run.
One other quick thing: Warbler, you stated that "he lied about the WMDs and the connection with terrorists".
1a. If everyone through your life told you that grass was purple, not green, would you be lying?
1b. if you remember at the beginning of the war, there was talk that many weapons were sent to and hidden in Syria. Well, within the last 2 weeks, terrorists were caught trying to enter Jordan with a bomb and plans to launch a biological strike that would have killed as many as 80,000 people (the target was the capital of Jordan, Amman, I think).
Where do you suppose they got that bomb and the materials for it?
2a. Proof appears almost daily that Iraq DID have connections to terrorists. There were camps in Iraq, and whats-his-face spent time in Baghdad recuperating after an injury (lost his leg??). Those are 2 we knew about even before the war.
Did Bush exaggerate the threat potential? That I will give you.
But , as you said, that does not mean that removing Saddam was not a good thing.
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Originally posted by: Skipper
Nobody gets to be president of the US as a total and complete moron, which is what it would take to go to war over a false pretense.Quote
Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
There are certain pressures within culture and society that work on us, leading us to either do good or evil
GundarkHunter, every action people make is a concious desicion to perform that action. Society may put pressures on us, but the action that we finally choose is in the end, our desicion.
edit: no names in quotes
The first comment was too good to resist responding to. Such a position presumes that intelligence, not popular opinion, rules the ballot box. The fact of the matter is that becoming President of the USA has much more to do with public perception (manufactured or otherwise) and one's connections within the political machine (not what you know but who you know). There are those who argue that you could have nominated a trained monkey as GOP and the race would have turned out the same.
On the second comment, you took me out of context, Go back and read it again. I would never assume that people make decisions based solely on political pressures; in fact, one of society's major ills is that people refuse to take responsibility for their actions, preferring to sue the pants off their preceived injurers. While social pressures may be strong, they are never so strong that we become slaves to societal pressure. If we do, it's our own fault.
Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.
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Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
While social pressures may be strong, they are never so strong that we become slaves to societal pressure. If we do, it's our own fault.
Good, then we agree.
. Sorry about the out of context thing. Quote
Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
The fact of the matter is that becoming President of the USA has much more to do with public perception (manufactured or otherwise) and one's connections within the political machine (not what you know but who you know). There are those who argue that you could have nominated a trained monkey as GOP and the race would have turned out the same.
You're assuming that the majority of americans are complete idiots who are totally swayed by the media. Even if something tlike that happened it means that the people backing the president are complete political geniuses to pull it off. So if a stupid president was elected, he would have good advisors to back him up.
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Originally posted by: Skipper
Even if something tlike that happened it means that the people backing the president are complete political geniuses to pull it off. So if a stupid president was elected, he would have good advisors to back him up.
I think smart people working for him is about the only thing Bushie's got going for him. Now if only he could get them to deliver the speeches that they write for him. They'd probably come across as 200% more intelligent (not to mention intelligible).
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
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And can you really say we would be in a better position with Al "Cars will destroy the World" Gore as president?
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Do you honestly think John 'Appeasement' Kerry would do ANY better?!
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
And can you really say we would be in a better position with Al "Cars will destroy the World" Gore as president?
Why not? Because he's a democrat? I'm assuming you're a voter, Chaltab, am I correct?
BTW voting should be obligatory in the USA. And the majority of the votes should decide who gets the job. And people should learn that there are more than 2 political parties, more than 2 ideas to vote for.
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He's a drip of a person. There is no enthusiam in the guy (believe it or not, Lieberman was the exciting member of his team. That says a lot).
He out-and-out lied and/or flip-flopped about a number of things before and during his own campaign (remember...he invented the Internet)
He was not the brightest bulb in the package, as heard in this this audio clip.
Plenty of people understand that there are more than 2 parties. If there weren't people that understood that, Bush 41 would have won a second term. Enough voters were taken from Bush by Perot and his Reform party that Clinton won.
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Originally posted by: Warbler
First thing, I am not a conservative nor liberal. I consider myself neither Democrat nor Republican. I consider myself independent. Second I too hate Bush. I think he lied to us and I think he is a bad president I never voted for him nor do I intend to. Has America made mistakes? Of course it has. I'm not saying that we are angels, all I'm trying to say is that there is no justication for murder. And I know I'm going to get you all ranting and raving at me, but murder is not the same as making war. Vietnam,Korea, and Iraq are wars(maybe not justified wars but wars none the less),The first attack on the twin towers was not war, 911 was not a war, the beheading of an innocent civilian is not war they were murder. I don't want to kill innocent people. I just want these murderers brought to justice. If these people had legitimate gripes they should have stated them. One of the great things about America is that we have the freedom of speech. They could have come here and made there gripes known. I at least would have listened but instead they choose to attack us. That is not the way to solve your problems volence is the last resort, not the first. That goes for the USA as well.
As for Iraq. Were Bushes reasons for going to war correct? no, he lied about the WMDs and the connection with terrorists. However, is Iraq better off without Saddam? I would have to beleive that the people of Iraq would have to say yes. I'm not saying that they are better off with the USA controlling their Country, But I just can't believe that they would actually want to live under Saddam's murderous cruel dictatorship. Does that justify our war to remove him? I don't know. But I think right now whether or not we were right in our invasion, we just can't eave Iraq untill it has a stable government otherwise we risk another Saddam or worst another Hitler.
As for why people hate the USA. That is a difficult question. I think its for different reasons. I think some think we are evil. Others just hate Capitalism and/or democracy. Others hate us because they think we hate them. Some of it has also has to do with religion. But I think one reason that is not often talked about is I think people hate us because its cool to hate us. They think by opposing the most powerful nation on the earth that , that somehow makes them brave and noble I believe alot of you fall into the last category. Its easy to think that such a powerful country is evil but that doesn't make it so. I'm sorry for being such an evil arrogant American but thats the way I am.
There is so much wrong with what you just said I don't even know where to begin. First of all Iraq did have connection with terrorists. Why do you think there are so many there. He was harboring terrorists who were ploting attacks on America. He was also evil and genosidal. They found death camps where he commited thousands of innocent people to death. You want to talk about murder thats just pure murder. He has that Hitlar montality though he never had the power to become anything like Hitler. Most of the Iraqi people are happy Saddam is gone. He never lied about the weapons. The United Nations had accurate intellegence that he had all these weapons. Nobody not even France disputed these intellegence. He offered no evidence he ever destroyed them. Just because we haven't found them doesn't mean they didn't excist. He could have shiped them out of the country, a bomb could have destroyed them there are a number of posibilitys but George Bush did not lie. You want to talk about lying politicians how about "I took the inicitive into inventing the internet" or even better "I did not have sexual relations with that women"
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I guess without moral absoutes--the conviction that some things are allways right and somethings are allways wrong, no matter what culture you live in--then there truly is no justification for the war in Iraq. Think about it. Just because our culture has come to accept sleeping around with as many people as possible and never getting married doesn't make it right.
I find it disturbing that some of you continue to insist that America was/is to blame for the Radical Muslims hating us... as if were doing something wrong. No, the US isn't perfect. No nation is, but it would seem to me that it is the greatest nation currently on the planet.
Uhhg. I'm bored.. I'm outta here for now.
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Originally posted by: ricarleiteQuote
Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
And can you really say we would be in a better position with Al "Cars will destroy the World" Gore as president?
Why not? Because he's a democrat? I'm assuming you're a voter, Chaltab, am I correct?
BTW voting should be obligatory in the USA. And the majority of the votes should decide who gets the job. And people should learn that there are more than 2 political parties, more than 2 ideas to vote for.
No. I simply disagree with Al Gore's politics. And no, I am not a voter. I am 16, and unfortunately won't beable to help decide who gets to be president until the 2008 elections. And forcing people to vote is a stupid idea. There are some Republican so disgusted with Bush not standing up against gay marriage and abbortion and other domestic issues that they say they won't vote period.
And there are democrats who think John F Kerry is too liberal but won't vote for Bush either.
(And for the record, I think voting for an independent cantidate is really pointless, so don't even go there.)
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I'm not touching this.
I will however agree on the forcing people to vote thing.
Failing to vote is essentialy admitance to the failure of democracy. As soon as people have no confidence in any presidential canadite or party platform, and decide to vote for no-one, that spells anarchy to me.
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Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.
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Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)