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HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray — Page 3

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I usually do not agree with Jimbo when it comes to Star Wars. However, when it comes to HD-DVD verses Blu-Ray, I do. He really knows his stuff. Up until now, I was a hoping Blu-Ray would come out on top because of the higher capacity. Jimbo has shown that higher capacity doesn't necessarily mean higher quality.

The Digital Bits just posted an interesting link to an article here. It appears that Blu-Ray is considering copying HD-DVD by acquiring the same VC9 and MPEG-4 codecs that it uses.

I think it is foolish to push either of these formats next year if the studios are not on board. Columbia is owned by Sony, so they are comitting to Blu-Ray. Warner is said to be in support of HD-DVD, but that is only rumored so far. However, Warner, Buena Vista, and Fox were said to all be "impressed" by the HD-DVD manufacturing process in the above article.

There is another huge factor to consider. Whoever buys MGM is going to be a major player in the format war because they have the largest library of films. Currently, Warner and Sony have bid on MGM. I kind of hope Warner wins because that will free up all rights for New Line to do The Hobbit since MGM has distribution rights to that.

It really comes down to politics and greed. Sony and the other Blu-Ray backers either didn't want to pay royalties or wanted to come out with their own thing and collect their own royalties. What I mean is that a manufacturer who makes a DVD Player has to pay royalties to the DVD Forum if they want to be approved and have that DVD logo on the player. That logo is supposed to signify that this player meets DVD specifications in so many words. Consumers probably do not look at that, but it would be strange to see a DVD Player without that logo on it.

This is the same reason we have DVD+R/+RW. I'm not going to bash that format, but it is not part of the official DVD standard. That is why you will see a different logo on the packaging of DVD+R. DVD-R/-RW's have the same logo as DVD because they are part of the standard. I really couldn't tell you which is better. I use -R because my I bought my writer early and that's all it does. My player will play both, so I will probably buy a dual layer burner that does both + and - dual layer whenever they come out.

This is definitely going to be a very ugly format war. The ultimate victor will be the one who gets the most studio support. Based on the article I posted a link to, it looks so far that HD-DVD is probably the best way to go even if it doesn't hold as much data. It is much cheaper to manufacture and that is one thing the studios are going to be very happy about. The other factor will be encryption. Only time will tell.

Thanks Jimbo for the information on the compression codecs.

Patrick
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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HD-DVD has the advantage now because of its better codecs. Blu-Ray at MPEG-2 versus HD-DVD at MPEG-4 and VC-9 is no contest. HD-DVD is better in every way. In terms of prerecorded media Blu-Ray has no advantage of any kind. It would hold 30% more information and be 20% cheaper. If Blu-Ray adopts VC-9 and MPEG-4 then it will have my support. HD-DVD would loose both advantages. Since though Blu-Ray is more expensive per disc to make then HD-DVD the cost of making two HD-DVD would be quite a bit more then one Blu-Ray. With Blu-Rays higher storage it would make needing more then one disc unnessessary. Because of this most studios might change there minds. HD-DVD name would be its only advantage. But as of now HD-DVD has officially supported the better codecs well Blu-Ray has not. As a result I am now all on the HD-DVD camp.
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Interesting. I just hope it doesn't wind up suffering the same fate as Holotape when it comes to mass production.

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Big news

Apparently microsofts VC-9 codec will be availble for Blu-Ray. This is good news. It both gives Blu-Ray Microsofts support (though they are not taking sides) and gives its format the advantage. With VC-9 compression Blu-Ray can be truely the master format. While Blu-Ray will still be signifigantly more expensive to make per disc it can actually be cheaper in the end. With 50 gigabits instead of 30 you could fit much more playtime eliminating the need for two discs. This could actually make Blu-Ray cheaper. Still no support for MPEG-4. HD-DVD still might win because of its year head start but my moneys with Blu-Ray at this point.
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The decision by the Blu-ray group means that makers of Blu-ray disc players will have to incorporate VC-1, as well as another advanced codec known as MPEG-4 AVC High Profile and the older codec MPEG-2,

According to that, it does support mpg-4. VC-9 is still a rotton codec.


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Looks like Sony won the bidding war for MGM. Check it out here.
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Originally posted by: Bossk
Looks like Sony won the bidding war for MGM. Check it out here.


Yep. My moneys on Blu-Ray at this point. With the news of Blu-Ray adopting better codecs will the other studios change there minds. Most have been with HD-DVD before.
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So depressing from a movie lover's perspective that Sony won the bidding war for MGM. HD can go to hell now for all I care.

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Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
So depressing from a movie lover's perspective that Sony won the bidding war for MGM. HD can go to hell now for all I care.


Another American company eaten up by the Japanese. Not to mention Sony are the kings of double dipping DVDs. I hope they don't bring this trend to Blu-Ray.
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They will, jimbo; they will. Kerkorian is an idiot for not taking Warner's offer; the library would've been treated so much better.

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Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
They will, jimbo; they will. Kerkorian is an idiot for not taking Warner's offer; the library would've been treated so much better.


MGM did accept Warners offer before Sony uped it and Warner did not want to up it more. Warner haven't been the best with DVD (remember those God damn snapper cases) but I do believe Warner rarely double dips while Sony does constantly.
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Warner has finally come around in many ways. Next year marks the end of the Snapper Case. They do cause you to double dip a little, but it is usually worth it as the rereleases fix something that was previously wrong like making a film Anamorphic that wasn't before. Also, most of their DVD rereleases are of movies that came out on DVD in the early days, so they are usually much better. I'm very pleased with the new Goodfellas DVD since it is no longer a flipper. It was a flipper before because it was one of the first DVD's ever released and there wasn't any dual layered DVD's at that time.

The only things I don't like about Warner are. There are still some movies need to be released in their original aspect ratio. Also, they do not do DTS or Seamless Branching. Other than that, I can't complain. Thank God the Snappers will be history. I just wish I could get replacement Keep Cases and artwork for the movies I have that are in Snappers. It sucks to have two Austin Powers films in Snappers and one in a Keep Case. The Matrix is the opposite. I like consistency.

Patrick
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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I still don't know why they won't release The Sting in it's OAR!

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Originally posted by: Patrick R.
Warner has finally come around in many ways. Next year marks the end of the Snapper Case. They do cause you to double dip a little, but it is usually worth it as the rereleases fix something that was previously wrong like making a film Anamorphic that wasn't before. Also, most of their DVD rereleases are of movies that came out on DVD in the early days, so they are usually much better. I'm very pleased with the new Goodfellas DVD since it is no longer a flipper. It was a flipper before because it was one of the first DVD's ever released and there wasn't any dual layered DVD's at that time.

The only things I don't like about Warner are. There are still some movies need to be released in their original aspect ratio. Also, they do not do DTS or Seamless Branching. Other than that, I can't complain. Thank God the Snappers will be history. I just wish I could get replacement Keep Cases and artwork for the movies I have that are in Snappers. It sucks to have two Austin Powers films in Snappers and one in a Keep Case. The Matrix is the opposite. I like consistency.

Patrick


I can't believe it took them 7 fucking years to figure out that those snappers such ass. I am very glad there gone. I never could stand them. There easily damaged service, flimsy manufactoring just makes them a total pain in the ass.
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Not to mention that it is hard to get replacement cases since they don't sell Snappers anywhere.

Patrick
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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Warner had some level of ownership in the company that manufactured the snapper cases. That's why they've used them for so long. I believe that relationship is over now, which is why you're seeing new releases in keepcases.

Warner is probably my favorite studio when it comes to DVDs. Their releases are consistently reference-quality, and as Patrick says, their re-releases offer genuine improvements over the original disc. The Good Fellas remaster is gorgeous. One of those DVDs that makes my DLP projector look like it's projecting film.
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Originally posted by: Jay
Warner had some level of ownership in the company that manufactured the snapper cases. That's why they've used them for so long. I believe that relationship is over now, which is why you're seeing new releases in keepcases.

Warner is probably my favorite studio when it comes to DVDs. Their releases are consistently reference-quality, and as Patrick says, their re-releases offer genuine improvements over the original disc. The Good Fellas remaster is gorgeous. One of those DVDs that makes my DLP projector look like it's projecting film.


Personally my favorite studio in terms of DVD is Fox. There releases almost always seem reference quality too but they appear to have better extras then Warner usually gives. Though in the early days of DVD Warner was best since they support anamorphic transfers from the beginning while some backwards studios went without anamorphic encoding.
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Criterion would have my vote for best DVD studio. All of their stuff thus far has been reference quality (except for some of their early stuff, which they realize and are in the process of remastering), their level of extras are amazing and the quality of the films themselves they put out are unmatched.

I've been very disappointed with Miramax lately. Kill Bill, Gangs of New York, English Patient, etc all have terrible transfers.

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One of my only complaints with Fox is how the leave out the "Previously on..." on their releases of Angel, Buffy, and The X-Files. I believe the other Regions include those moments. They may seem minor, but the commentaries actually start during some of those moments, so the commentaries are not as complete as they are in Region 2 for instance. I don't care that Buffy is in Full Screen since that is the way Josh wants it. Other than that, Fox is one of my favorite studios as well.

Patrick
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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dont forget that there was HD-LD too for awhile.
needless to say it was WAY ahead of its time, considering most people now dont have HD compatible tvs even 10 years later...

laserdisc failed for two reasons: the size of the disks were unacceptable, digital compression took over like a wildfire...

besides laserdisc is a 1979 technology anyway, its amazing that people watched LDs through the 1990s.

As someone who OWNS two HD-DVDs and watches HDTV (DTV) everyday... I can say bring it on. What many ppls dont realize is that WMV-HD is already here, and they play in PC DVD drives. go to www.wmvhd.com to learn more. Unfortunately these is no way for the consumer to ENCODE into wmvhd format at this time, b/c that would be the way to transfer the OT!
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Some news. Apparently Fox has joined the Blu-Ray association. This doesn't mean Fox has made a commitment to release titles on the format just that they are taking intrest in its devolopment. It marks the first time any non-Sony studio has shown any intrest in Blu-Ray.
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I really havent been following the whole Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD thing, I have read a few things and my impression was Blu-Ray is ahead of HD-DVD as far as being released, but while I understand that this forum is mainly focused on how the technology relates to movies and their releases you have to realize that with technology like this its ability to take hold of the market is going to be based on more than just its video quality.

For instance, Jimbo keeps repeating that even though HD-DVD can store less data (roughly 30 gigs vs 50) that due to its encoding it can hold more/better quality video. While this may be true I have to ask/offer, doesnt the encoding in and of its self hurt the quality...Im honestly not as up on the video codecs (or even audio ones for that matter) as id like to be, so i dont know, is MPEG4 a lossless compression?

But even still, this technology spans more than just movies. People who are more in touch with the pure computer side of this technology as I am will much prefer a 50 gig disc compared to a 30 gig disc. Albeit the price point has to be comparable. Im sure most of this information is known already, but the point im trying to make is that i think blu-ray is a more versitile format.

Im not backing or making a claim that Blu-Ray will win over HD-DVD just that in my opinion its more versitile.

Darth Simon

ps..mainly to jimbo, but also cause i didnt see it in this thread, Blu-Ray will be supporting MPEG4 according to their site http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#1.8 sure its their PR guys saying it, but its kinda hard to lie about that kind of stuff without it biting you in the arse
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Originally posted by: Darth Simon
I really havent been following the whole Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD thing, I have read a few things and my impression was Blu-Ray is ahead of HD-DVD as far as being released, but while I understand that this forum is mainly focused on how the technology relates to movies and their releases you have to realize that with technology like this its ability to take hold of the market is going to be based on more than just its video quality.

For instance, Jimbo keeps repeating that even though HD-DVD can store less data (roughly 30 gigs vs 50) that due to its encoding it can hold more/better quality video. While this may be true I have to ask/offer, doesnt the encoding in and of its self hurt the quality...Im honestly not as up on the video codecs (or even audio ones for that matter) as id like to be, so i dont know, is MPEG4 a lossless compression?

But even still, this technology spans more than just movies. People who are more in touch with the pure computer side of this technology as I am will much prefer a 50 gig disc compared to a 30 gig disc. Albeit the price point has to be comparable. Im sure most of this information is known already, but the point im trying to make is that i think blu-ray is a more versitile format.

Im not backing or making a claim that Blu-Ray will win over HD-DVD just that in my opinion its more versitile.

Darth Simon

ps..mainly to jimbo, but also cause i didnt see it in this thread, Blu-Ray will be supporting MPEG4 according to their site http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#1.8 sure its their PR guys saying it, but its kinda hard to lie about that kind of stuff without it biting you in the arse


The arguement that a better codec would decrease resolution is total bunk. In my opinion Blu-Ray is the winner. Before I have always supported HD-DVD because of the advanced codecs. Now that Blu-Ray has adopted those codecs Blu-Ray is the winner. With both VC-1, MPEG-4 and 54 gigabits of capacity a Blu-Ray should hold as much as 20 SD-DVDs while an HD-DVD holds as much as 12. Both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have the same improvement in picture and sound and its a dramatic one. A total of six times as many onscreen pixels. Not only better then DVDs but also multiple improvment over HDTV. Thats greater then the difference between DVD and VHS which has amazed the populous into phasing out VHS. Both formats support lossless codecs with litterally 20x the sound of convensional doby digital. However HD-DVD supports such amazing picture and sound with the same playback times as SD-DVDs do. With its higher storage Blu-Ray could have that great difference in picture and sound but with almost twice as much playtime as current DVDs. With that we can fit entire high definition movies on a single layer with all the extras you need on the other layer. Expect in 2007 for a 6 disc Blu-Ray set of the Star Wars saga with all the extras you need and picture quality that will blow you away. Not to mention more changes but thats another discussion.
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How many discs it will be is debatable; Sony has just announced a prototype of an 8-layer Blu-Ray disc, and believes that 4-layer ones will be commmercially viable. The mind reels....

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.