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Forbidden Planet 16mm Scope print for sale on eBay

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To me, the BD looks fantastic although there’s bound to be someone who disagrees. 😃

Ghost Logos

http://www.ebay.com/itm/16mm-Film-Feature-FORBIDDEN-PLANET-1956-Uncut-Sci-Fi-NEAR-MINT-Scope-/231941726345?hash=item3600cde089:g:ivkAAOSwInxXM9M5

I was curious as to the “uncut” status and found an explanation here:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049223/alternateversions?ref_=tt_ql_trv_5

Apparently MGM censored some of the later prints to remove the kissing scenes with Anne Francis.

“anamorphic print, not letterboxed”, can someone elaborate for film print novice on what they mean by this?

Recent captures…

*The Hunger Games HDTV 1080p (UK theatrical alternate version: not on Blu-ray)

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Thanks, S.W. Once again you lot have the answers. 😃

Recent captures…

*The Hunger Games HDTV 1080p (UK theatrical alternate version: not on Blu-ray)

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JayArgonaut said:
Apparently MGM censored some of the later prints to remove the kissing scenes with Anne Francis.

According to IMDb, this was only of a national (“local”) showing. I would guess MGM would not make up special prints in such censorship/ratings situations. At most, they’d just “OK” the locals making cuts for the local rating. But I’d suspect that letting internationals do cuts for local sensibilities is a contract norm.

To me, the BD looks fantastic although there’s bound to be someone who disagrees. 😃

Ah, that would be me! 😃 But first …

SilverWook said:
The Blu Ray version looks pretty good to me as well.

I once made a proof-of-concept color adjustment of this particular shot just to see what might result from stronger contrast & saturation & reduction of the blue tint (Blu-ray on LEFT, BR “adjusted” on RIGHT) . .

Too much of the movie is not well graded, as opined in this DVDBeaver review:

DVDBeaver ReviewForbidden Planet wrote:
“I don’t mean to ‘rain on the parade’ but I think I may have had higher expectations for the image quality of the new release than it is representing. … but I am ambivalent to make any bold statements on the colors. It could be the lighting but the uniforms of Commander Adams crew shift from blue to silver and even brown in some scenes.”

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“Your love of the halflings’ leaf has clearly slowed your mind”

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I haven’t gotten the BD yet but he slightly bolder look is what I remember from the old DVD and LD issues and how I first saw it. Currently I only have he MGM CLV LD and it looks that way for he most part.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.

"George didn't think there was any future in dead Han toys."-Harrison Ford

My review blog: thehificelluloidmonster.wordpress.com

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That’s probably the best reason for picking up something like this very cool scope. I knew I should’ve been born rich!

Was there ever a comparison among the laserdiscs, or a general consensus of the best (or equal betters)? And, for that matter, how good (or how poor) were the DVDs compared to the laserdiscs? (I was sure there was a review where a laserdisc screenshot was compared to the DVDs and/or hi-defs, but can’t find it at this moment.)


“Your love of the halflings’ leaf has clearly slowed your mind”

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I believe it’s how it usually happened: Criterion uses show print or studio print as-is then later MGM would either reissue that or scan it on their better equipment for a better presentation or go back and use a higher generation source eventually.
From what I’ve heard on FP, Criterion uses a print and is contrasty whereas MGM used a IP and later reissued in full CAV and ported to DVD.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.

"George didn't think there was any future in dead Han toys."-Harrison Ford

My review blog: thehificelluloidmonster.wordpress.com

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And that’s not all of it. Forbidden Planet needs fix-ups (apart from the-usual-suspects releases).

Like 2001: A Space Odyssey, Forbidden Planet special effects also shows it’s “frayed edges”. For example, in this shot (Blu-ray), it is clear that the actors are walking outdoors on an overcast day (also see reflections from the rain puddles?) with a matte painting all around them [TOP picture]. Why does it look phony? First, the walk-way colors don’t match. Even when that is corrected (the matte painting matched to the live action) [MIDDLE picture], still visible are street/parking-lot construction joins (or whatever) going off in wrong directions. Erasing those biggest eye-distractions allows the shot to look more natural [BOTTOM picture].

No global color correction was considered in the above (which it needs anyway). Without any on-the-set or behind-the-scenes sources, here’s a suggested color correction . .

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“Your love of the halflings’ leaf has clearly slowed your mind”

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Looking forward to seeing your comparison.

Recent captures…

*The Hunger Games HDTV 1080p (UK theatrical alternate version: not on Blu-ray)

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Here goes:

Firstly the 2006 DVD/HDDVD/BD is a WB restoration that tried to bring color back to the faded negative which I didn’t realize had gone. It’s early Eastmancolor.
Second the 5.1 remix reportedly centers the dialog. BOO! According to a HTF post only the LCR masters survive and the surround channel had deteriorated and was thus unuseable. Originall the film was to have premiered in full 4 track Cinemascope mag (LCRS) and Perspecta directed mono.

Now: The LDs use the same source. The Criterion is more stable and has less noise due to being CAV. The MGM CLV is noisier but has better framing. The Criterion is cropped a bit on top, and the MGM restores this while maybe giving a slight bit back on the sides as well. It also has some color fluctuation between reels where the Criterion does not despite them using the same source. Audiowise the mix is the same, but the Criterion is clearly mono-ed in feeling where the MGM is stereo despite feeling very boxed in. You can hear the directional dialogue panning in both tracks despite the Criterion being mono. The opening title score is far more effective on the MGM. (It may be one of their cut and paste the soundtrack CD master in the transfer jobs.)
The CAV MGM was reputed to have a better transfer and be even better on the framing. This was ported to DVD as shown in the DVdbeaver caps. Those look pretty much like the CLV image albeit with some differences probably like how MGM redid 2001 for the CAV box after the first CLV issue.
The BD restoration has better framing again but there’s just something about the color and contrast that seems off to me. It may be all that they could do with the negative but there are others online who have felt the same.

So now I need the CAV and the BD. Hmm…the collecting for research never stops does it? 😉

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.

"George didn't think there was any future in dead Han toys."-Harrison Ford

My review blog: thehificelluloidmonster.wordpress.com

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captainsolo said:
Firstly the 2006 DVD/HDDVD/BD … the faded negative … early Eastmancolor.

Whoa! That explains much about the weak restoration.

According to a HTF post …

Link please (if you have it handy)?

… the 5.1 remix … only the LCR masters survive … the surround channel had deteriorated and was thus unuseable. … was to have premiered in full 4 track Cinemascope mag (LCRS) and Perspecta directed mono.

I guess that $1,000+ 16mm eBay wouldn’t have helped for a preservation project, unless it’s (stereo?) optical soundtrack is a LCRS mix-down.

LDs use the same source. The Criterion … The MGM CLV
… the Criterion is clearly mono-ed … the MGM is stereo despite feeling very boxed in. … directional dialogue panning in both …

Would it mean that any stereo is L+C+S and R+C+S?

The CAV MGM … was ported to DVD as shown in the DVdbeaver caps. Those look pretty much like the CLV image …

The Laser Disc Database lists Forbidden Planet laserdisc (US) releases from 1983 to 1994:

1983 Forbidden Planet (1956) ML100041 P&S CLV 2-channel
.
1989 Forbidden Planet (1956) Sp.Ed. #53 CC1153L LB CAV 2-channel
.
1991 Forbidden Planet (1956) ML102321 LB CLV 2-channel
.
1994 Forbidden Planet (1956) ML104683 LB CAV 2-channel

Therefore, would the earliest, pan & scan laserdisc (same pedigree as the earliest Betamax, VHS, VHD, CED?) have the most color, as a guide for any letterbox (even BR) restoration?


“Your love of the halflings’ leaf has clearly slowed your mind”

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Found this one:

The mag prints were used for the DVD audio.
Oh crap! …Did I write that? [​IMG] After reading a few
posts afterwards, I decided to revisit the various video
versions of Forbidden Planet.
At one time or another I’ve either owned or have been able
to borrow from friends almost every LD/DVD version of
Forbidden Planet available in the US. I’ve watched the
first pan-n-scan laserdisc, which Doug Pratt claimed was
missing the surround tracks. Was Doug Pratt right? I don’t
know, but it wouldn’t surprise me, with the attention
stereo soundtracks received from the studios at that time
period. That disc went by “bye bye” when a friend acquired
the Criterion CAV letterboxed edition. (One of the FIRST
letterboxed LDs) Later there came the cheaper MGM CLV
version, (didn’t get to see the MGM CAV version) then
the MGM DVD, folled by the Warner Brothers DVD. My friend
no longer has the Criterion version nor do I own the CLV
MGM LD, but I did make VHS hi-fi copies of both way back
when, which allowed me to make a recent comparison of the
stereo mixes of the three video versions. …Now before
someone balks at VHS hi-fi, allow me to point out that VHS
hi-fi has phase error and channel separation specs equal to
most consumer digital formats. Yes, VHS hi-fi does suffer
in other areas, but these two specs ensure stereo and
matrix surround audio are played back properly. Those two
specs are the one’s important for these reviews, but if
someone wants to do a follow-up with the original LDs,
I’m all for it!
I tested three segments of the film in an A/B/C review fashion:

  1. Opening narration with music right after opening credits.
  2. Roughly 17 minutes into the film, Dr. Morbius has Robby
    show off the household disinegrator beam.
  3. Roughly 20 minutes into the film, a protective shell
    consisting of panels is put up around the house.
    The opening narration highlights the differences in the
    audio transfers quite nicely. On the Criterion version,
    the announcer remains anchored in the center channel,
    while stereo synth music gently spreads to the left and
    right speakers. But the MGM version has the announcer in
    all three front speakers, along with the stereo music.
    The WB DVD keeps most of the dialog centered but with
    no perceptible stereo music.
    This makes me wonder if the MGM LD had slight phase errors
    during the mag audio transfer, which would effect the
    perceived stereo spread. The MGM LD’s audio is clean, and
    the stereo is intact… but it lacks the center channel lock
    that the Criterion version offers. This difference is
    later heard during the various slight directional dialog
    pans throughout the film. The Criterion transfer tracks
    these pans slightly better, while the MGM LD pans seem to
    “pop around” a smidgen more when Pro-Logic decoded, which
    again could be due to a slight phase shift. …The WB DVD
    simply has NO directional dialog.
    The Desinigrator Beam sequence has Morbius activating the
    beam briefly (leaning towards the right channel.) …Then
    there’s the securing the house sequence a few minutes
    later. This “closing panel” pan starts at the right and
    ends close to the center channel. Both the MGM and
    Criterion LD both have the same effect. The WB DVD version
    is flat mono.
    So is the WB DVD completely mono? During music passages the
    audio seems to spread out over the three channels some, but
    nothing that screams out true stereophonic sound. I was
    able to check out the WB DVD from my local library, and
    this disc was slightly remade by WB after they acquired the
    rights from MGM. (The disc opens with the WB logo.) …But
    does the first MGM DVD have the original stereo sound? I
    don’t know. In either case, I would have to give a NOT
    recommended review of the WB DVD version, due to the
    missing original stereo mix.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/forbidden-planet-se.41960/page-2

Digging around the HTF reveals manyhreads with complaints about the old DVD and how it pales in both color and sound to its LD source.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.

"George didn't think there was any future in dead Han toys."-Harrison Ford

My review blog: thehificelluloidmonster.wordpress.com

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I did direct comparisons with the opening, Robby’s first appearance and introduction, and the first arrival at the house (reel change point).

The mix seems the same. Both the Criterion and MGM have the sound panning. But the Criterion is limited in dynamic range and centered practically around the center channel only. This is with and without ProLogic engaged. The MGM is fuller and has more depth and is firmly stereo with the same slight panning.
Overall it sounds like a mono and stereo of the same source. The weird thing is they’re both technically stereo and both decode properly in PL. I can only describe the sound structure though and what actually is coming through my system.

Not to mention they both look closer to the 16mm caps above.

This review indicates the old pan and scan disc has the best color:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~robinson/Reviews/Forbidden-Planet-Review.htm

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VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.

"George didn't think there was any future in dead Han toys."-Harrison Ford

My review blog: thehificelluloidmonster.wordpress.com

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Thanks for those links! Yes, it seems we must buy all releases of any particular film just to get to the bottom of things. (Q: Does Hollywood even know what they’re doing? A: Yes, they’re selling soap.)


“Your love of the halflings’ leaf has clearly slowed your mind”

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So, depending on when that 16mm was printed (I expect predating even 1981 home video releases) and on what stock, it should’ve had the fullest color.

I came across an assortment of original 1956 Fobbiden Planet “cards” (different from the colorized-B&W “lobby cards” – why would they do colorization when they already have them … in color!?) at the Four Color Comics website (with a search).

To compensate for the printing, I reduced the brightness (gamma) and increased the color (technicolor-simulation) as a one-shot-applied-to-all. Of course, one cannot expect printed media to be a proper color guide, but I think the overall look is better than the later, commercial releases of weak colors with tints all over the map:

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“Your love of the halflings’ leaf has clearly slowed your mind”

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Just for the record (pun intended), here’s an extra, in case a project of this ever get off the ground … a recording of the David Rose & His Orchestra-commissioned Forbidden Planet theme song, pre- Louis & Bebe Barron’s “electronic tonalities” soundtrack (hint: it’s not the music of the FP trailer)! Click the picture for the YouTube:

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“Your love of the halflings’ leaf has clearly slowed your mind”

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Doesn’t the Criterion have the original 2.55:1 ratio? I’d love to see that restored.

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LDDb lists the Criterion LD release as 2.45:1 (the later MGM releases list as 2.35:1).
Blu-ray.com lists the Blu-ray as 2.41:1 and the original AR as 2.55:1.


“Your love of the halflings’ leaf has clearly slowed your mind”

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Spaced Ranger said:

LDDb lists the Criterion LD release as 2.45:1 (the later MGM releases list as 2.35:1).
Blu-ray.com lists the Blu-ray as 2.41:1 and the original AR as 2.55:1.

Bit confusing. Since I already own the Blu-ray, the Criterion LD would be perfect for a LD-to-DVD conversion. Hopefully DVD9, for quality, and I’d put it with the Blu-ray. If anyone already has though.

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captainsolo said:

I did direct comparisons with the opening, Robby’s first appearance and introduction, and the first arrival at the house (reel change point). The mix seems the same. Both the Criterion and MGM have the sound panning.

To maybe answer RayRogers’ inquiry, I made a search “forbidden planet” site:originaltrilogy.com (happen to use Google) to see if anyone had worked up a Forbidden Planet project. Didn’t find one, but did find this from October 2013 about it’s Blu-ray:

GregK said:

Chewtobacca said:

Does anyone have any comments on the DTS-HD MA 5.1 on the BD of Forbidden Planet (1956)?

As most know, FORBIDDEN PLANET originally had a wide release with a Perspecta Sound encoded track, along with a few limited engagements in (true) 4-track mag sound.

The three front channels are original for sure. They match the very old Criterion laserdisc version as far as front channel image placement goes. The bluray’s DTS-MA audio has the advantage of being discrete, vs being matrix encoded like the previous home video versions. The MGM DVD and first WB DVD (same version of the MGM DVD pressing) had screwed up audio with no real directionality in dialog or effects. The Bluray corrects this, and as noted above, also offers the audio for the first time since the 1950’s in discrete multi-channel. Can’t say for sure about the effect/surround track, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it is the original.


“Your love of the halflings’ leaf has clearly slowed your mind”

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BTW, did anyone here (or anyone else we know) win this auction? I’d love to see how it might work out as a preservation. Especially since the seller described it as “Near mint condition reduction with no splices. Scope (anamorphic print, not letterboxed). … Loud and clear optical sound. Uncut version. Best looking print around! No vinegar smell”. It better be at $1009.99!


“Your love of the halflings’ leaf has clearly slowed your mind”

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Of course, the snapshot could have been better (too bright a background light caused blow-out in the picture), but a quick color-correction (2nd frame) moved everything closer to normal:

But with 6 days to go, why is there a bidding duel? No one can win an auction at day 6 ! Don’t they know they’re only driving up the price? Snipe, people! At the last 10 seconds, take your best shot!

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“Your love of the halflings’ leaf has clearly slowed your mind”

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