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Fahrenheit 9/11

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anybody expecting to see this movie if it opens up in any theaters near you
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I sure am!

BTW, to all the brazillians out there: "Farenheit 11 de Setembro" (Fahrenheit 9/11) opens here on july 9th, on selected theaters.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Oh, and, by the way, just for the fun of it, this is Bill "Shut up cut off his mic" O'Reilly's review of the movie:

It started 40 minutes late so I had to leave after an hour, I didn't see the whole thing, but I saw most of. The film is pretty much what you would expect, President Bush and his administration are a satanic cult and we live in a police state. The movie was a little slow for me, fairly predictable.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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You damn right I will. I've seen and been impressed by all of his work thus far. Of course I do take it with a grain of salt. Having the first-hand knowledge of documentary filmmaking that I have, I know how subjective and open to interpretation the whole process is. If it's something I am interested in learning more about, I will do so via other media resources so my perspective becomes a bit more balanced. And, Lord knows, Michael Moore is quite capable of making you want to know more about what he's dishing out, wouldn't you all say?
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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I belive Michael Moore is one of the most politically active people out there, and he's doing his best to expose the whole truth to all of us, even if some people dosen't want to hear the truth. I've first heard of him when he released "Downsize This" and his documentary "The Big One", which I thought was truly brilliant. However I belive his last film, "Bowling for Columbine", would be better in a book form. I'm all in favor for gun control, damn I belive the factories that produces guns should be exterminated, and I belive Mr. Moore was right in every aspect of his film, but as a film itself, I belive it was not that great. It was slow at some parts, the editing was sort of confusing (check out the first scene in k-mart, they begin it on the car, what was that all about?), and he didn't make his point so clear as he would make in a book. But I'm pretty sure Fahrenheit 9/11 will be great - even if it's slow and bad edited. As Radiohead said: "All hail to the thief, all hail to the thief, but I'm not, but I'm not."
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Even if he is "close to the truth", I still take all doc makers with a grain of salt. They all have a personal agenda and I refuse to let other people decide what I think. I like to make my own decisions using as much information as possible. Just how I operate.

I actually was in the audience for the taping of two episodes of Moore's The Awful Truth several years back. He invited my documentary filmmaking class to attend when he taped at the Illinois Institute of Technology. He had seen our documentary and extended the invitation. Damn right we took him up on it. Got to meet him afterwards and I've got an autographed The Awful Truth hat as well. Still have it.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
I belive Michael Moore is one of the most politically active people out there, and he's doing his best to expose the whole truth to all of us, even if some people dosen't want to hear the truth.
If he was "doing his best to expose the truth", why'd he wait on all the Iraq footage he got?
He could have broken the story, back in December, of the military abuses, but he didn't.
If he wanted to expose the truth, why not release the 20 minute interview he had with Nicholas Berg?

He also supposedly tricked the military into getting his film crew embedded. They didn't say who they was working with.
He also, supposedly again, instructed his film crew to get shots of military personnel as they "f---ed up".
Assuming this is true, I all I see is a fat man with, as Bossk put it, a personal agenda.

BTW: Hezbollah terror network gives the movie a Thumbs Up
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I didn't see it yet, so only based on what I know:

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Originally posted by: starkiller
If he was "doing his best to expose the truth", why'd he wait on all the Iraq footage he got? He could have broken the story, back in December, of the military abuses, but he didn't.



Actually, it was a last minute adition to the film. I remember reading about it on his website back then.


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Originally posted by: starkiller

If he wanted to expose the truth, why not release the 20 minute interview he had with Nicholas Berg?



Out of "respect" to the "deceased" Nick Berg. Altough I belive it would be great to include all those fishy circunstances envolving Berg and his beheading video.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
I didn't see it yet, so only based on what I know:
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Originally posted by: starkiller
If he was "doing his best to expose the truth", why'd he wait on all the Iraq footage he got? He could have broken the story, back in December, of the military abuses, but he didn't.


Actually, it was a last minute adition to the film. I remember reading about it on his website back then.
That doesn't exactly explain why he didn't release the footage to the media and blow the lid off the atrocities. If Moore hates this war so much, why wouldn't he reveal this info as soon as he got it??

Respect?? I don't believe Moore respects anything.
The situation with Nick Berg is, indeed, very suspicious (although I sense that your thoughts concerning it are different from mine). I think that anything that anyone can do to shed light on it is a good thing, and would help to honor his memory and let the US get the story straight.
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Originally posted by: starkiller
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
I didn't see it yet, so only based on what I know:
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Originally posted by: starkiller
If he was "doing his best to expose the truth", why'd he wait on all the Iraq footage he got? He could have broken the story, back in December, of the military abuses, but he didn't.


Actually, it was a last minute adition to the film. I remember reading about it on his website back then.
That doesn't exactly explain why he didn't release the footage to the media and blow the lid off the atrocities. If Moore hates this war so much, why wouldn't he reveal this info as soon as he got it??


The information about the tortures were already available for the public when he dicded to mention on the film - the final editing was almost done by them. I havent seen it, but its aparently pretty updated for a documentary, which usually has few months of gap.

And Donald Runsfeld KNEW about it months before. Why didn't HE talk about it to the public?
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
The information about the tortures were already available for the public when he dicded to mention on the film - the final editing was almost done by them. I havent seen it, but its aparently pretty updated for a documentary, which usually has few months of gap.

And Donald Runsfeld KNEW about it months before. Why didn't HE talk about it to the public?
I don't believe you are getting the point I'm trying to put across.

He, Michael Moore, reportedly knew about atrocities (not the Aub Grab tortures) in Iraq in December. Why did he not speak up then.
I don't care about when he "decided to mention" them. He knew, and he did not step forward with the information. In my eyes, that makes him as guilty as the military higher-ups that allowed it to happen.

As for Donald Rumsfeld...it was not months, it was 2 weeks. From what I remember, the Defense Dept. approached CBS and 60 Minutes and asked them to hold off on the story for 2 weeks, so the incidents could be investigated.
To me, that says, "We don't know, but we want to get to the bottom of it so we can make accurate statements about the situation."

Imagine that.

Someone that wants to to check the facts so that they can accurately provide information to the public.

If only the network media and New York Times was more diligent in their reporting...
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i'm definatly going to see it...
Moore always makes you think... even if his observations may be false, he always gives people a good debate after his movies...
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Well, starkiller, so perhaps I was wrong, but I belived Moore only knew about it when it was shown by the media. I thought Runsfeld knew about it for a long time, but if you say so... But the truth is, a lot of people inside the coalition forces knew about it since the begining, and it was their jobs to make it stop and to tell the people, not Moore's. Even better: there should be no tortures in first place.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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I saw Bowling for Columbin. It is really a joke. It fails to make a point. Its misleading as hell. For example the guns at the bank. Moore did have to wait two weeks for those guns and go through background checks. The documentary makes it appear he just walked out with them. I also hate it trying to blame the NRA for violent crimes. Its human nature to murder each other. If there were no guns then we would just sab, strangle, and bite each other to death. Its how we are. Also the idea that the news media is in some kind of consperacy against black people is ridiculous. The reason why most crimes are reportedly done by black people is that THEY ARE. I am not trying to be racist but it is true. I am sick of them trying to demonize white people and make us responsible for the fact that there life is tough. People with problems always scramble to blame people with better lives. Or worse try to blame us for slavery. Sure that was definutly sick and wrong but I didn't do it. I wasn't there. My grandparents weren't there. I am not responsible for the actions of some ancester of mine I never even heard of. Its a joke. Bowling for Columbin also shows a bunch of trigger happy red necks as an excuse for more gun control. Dumb. I have no desire to see another one of Moores propaganda gargage. You can bet this will be filled with more stupid lies about Bush.
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i agree with the whole gun at the bank thing... that kinda went too far with misleading the audience...
but that wasnt the point of his movie...
it still brings up the great question as to why the USA is or has a more violent nature..

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Its human nature to murder each other

ya for survival maybe in the ice age... but i think everyone can live without killing...
don't you?

bottom line is you should really re-watch the movie... im not trying to make fun of you but i think you missed the whole point of it...

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idea that the news media is in some kind of consperacy against black people is ridiculous

when was this in the movie?? i dont remember Moore saying that the media is in some kind of conspiracy...
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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While he didn't use the word conspiracy he very much suggested this.
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arG!
he didnt suggest that the tv company's are conspiring against african american's at all!!!!

he's saying that because they are a minority in society they are always easily targeted...
just like when that women drowned both her young children in the car ON PUPOSE!!! and then said a black man stole her car and drove it into the river...
that is absolutly disgusting... and they actually believed that lie until they found out the truth...

get my point?
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
arG!
he didnt suggest that the tv company's are conspiring against african american's at all!!!!

he's saying that because they are a minority in society they are always easily targeted...
just like when that women drowned both her young children in the car ON PUPOSE!!! and then said a black man stole her car and drove it into the river...
that is absolutly disgusting... and they actually believed that lie until they found out the truth...

get my point?


Some murderous crook lied. Its not the first time that happened. True that kind of thing is discusting but its not uncommen. Like I said its in our nature to murder each other. Society around us surpresses are dark feelings but instinctivly all human beings are naturely evil. Read Lord of the Flies. I don't believe society targets minoritys. I believe its the other way around. I believe minorities are constantly trying to demonize white people. Movies like Bowling for Columbin just aid that. Proff of this is affermative action. One of our countries most sick and discrasful acts. This is such an ovious attack on race its ridiculous. Other examples black history month, African American muesums, black Stars channel. Id really like to see them try that for white people. My opinion you can't have a black history month without a white history month. If someone tryed to open March as white history month some black asshole would call discrimination. Its absolutly discrassful.
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I'm actually looking forward to seeing this movie, at least just to see how much Moore lies and twists the facts...same with that Clinton book.

As for PRESIDENT Bush (c'mon media, he's not Mr. Bush...and it's FORMER President Clinton), while he is not in any means perfect, and should probably not have a second term, he's the best guy running this year.
Which is the more foolish, the fool (the OT) or the fool who follows (the PT)?

"Stay back, or Mr...Fett gets it!"
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By reading these posts, I STRONGLY belive the election system in america needs to change as soon as possible, and that other parties besides the republican and democrat should get more attention and support. The situation in america is leading to fascism and to civil war.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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jimbo ive read Lord of the Flies...
but we're talking about how you think the media is conspiring against african americans...
bit different dont you think?

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I believe minorities are constantly trying to demonize white people.


are you on crack??
i cant argue with this guy anymore...
someone take over..
lol
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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What's kind of funny is that even Bill Cosby agrees with that. Recently, he gave a commencement speech in which he said that the only ones that black people can blame for their status in life is themselves. I'm sure it went off like a lead balloon, but he believes it and I know others do, too. Not that black people are constantly demonizing just white people and not that black people are the only ones who demonize others period. The point is that you can't blame others for who you are. You've got to constantly struggle against yourself to be a better person. Hell, I could just as easily blame Affirmative Action for me not getting a particular job because some company had to meet a race composition quota. But I'm not gonna. I'm going to use rejection to make me work harder. I still keep a book with all my job rejection letters taped inside (dozens of them) to motivate me when I was looking for my first job out of college and my second job once I quit (was let go; but given the option to call it "quitting") from my first job. It did the trick.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
By reading these posts, I STRONGLY belive the election system in america needs to change as soon as possible, and that other parties besides the republican and democrat should get more attention and support. The situation in america is leading to fascism and to civil war.
The problem with other parties, is that they are too far from the mainstream to appeal to enough people to make a difference.
Example: Ralph Nader is running, again, under the Green Party flag. The Green Party?? I care about the environment, but the Green Party is insane.

As for the voting system...I recall reading what you said about how it works in Brazil. How its mandatory, and if you don't vote you need some kind of special permission or you lose the right to vote for X years in the future.
The problem with that is its not freedom. In US, people have the freedom to not vote if they wish.
(And if you're a Democrat, you usually get the right to vote a couple times, even after you're dead)

Edit: The real problem is that too many people choose not to vote. I remember, it was probably 2 years ago, they did some checking into Hollywood big-wigs that had been speaking out against the government. What was found was that most of them hadn't even voted in the 2000 election.
(They really don't have any reason to gripe...they didn't take advantage of their chance to speak with their vote.)

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Originally posted by: Bossk
What's kind of funny is that even Bill Cosby agrees with that. Recently, he gave a commencement speech in which he said that the only ones that black people can blame for their status in life is themselves. I'm sure it went off like a lead balloon, but he believes it and I know others do, too. Not that black people are constantly demonizing just white people and not that black people are the only ones who demonize others period. The point is that you can't blame others for who you are. You've got to constantly struggle against yourself to be a better person. Hell, I could just as easily blame Affirmative Action for me not getting a particular job because some company had to meet a race composition quota. But I'm not gonna. I'm going to use rejection to make me work harder. I still keep a book with all my job rejection letters taped inside (dozens of them) to motivate me when I was looking for my first job out of college and my second job once I quit (was let go; but given the option to call it "quitting") from my first job. It did the trick.


Bill Cosby is oviously a smart black guy then. Comment on black history month. Why is there no white history month? Thats just one of many examples of black people now having more rights in this country. And yes they try to demonize white people as an excuse to give them more rights and money. My opinion I don't feel sorry for them and when they want to take rights from I say fuck them.
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Many would say we have white history the rest of the 11 months...

There is an old saying about how history is written by the victorous. White man "conquered" the natives Indians of the western hemisphere, and one could say that, through slavery, blacks were "conquered as well.
White's wrote the history, so it takes a particular slant, and its been that way long after all the conquering is done.
(How often did you talk about George Washington Carver is school, whether it was February or not?)

As for all the "demonizing" talk...well, I'm not sure how to put how I feel into writing.
One thing, for sure, is that demonizing is far too strong a word for it.