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Idea & Info Wanted: Dreaming of the ultimate LD transfer

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 (Edited)

Just fantasizing about how the ultimate LD transfer could be produced. Come on experts, what do you think?
 

Discs
LD enthusiasts reckon that discs pressed at Pioneer Japan are generally better quality than those from Pioneer USA, so would the best discs be the Japanese “faces” set?
 

Player
You want the one that has the highest quality disc transport, laser and pickup. Processing electronics unimportant as we want the untouched composite video output. Pioneer HLD-X0 anyone?
 

Time Base Corrector
Composite video fed into a standalone professional TBC unit to strip and rebuild the signal with perfect video timing. Who makes TBCs for the pro video market?
 

Comb Filter
The TB corrected signal is fed into a professional comb filter, which will split the signal into component video outputs. I assume that the 3D motion-adaptive type of comb filter is the best?
 

Capture Hardware
What kind of professional capture board has a component video input?
 

Post-processing
I’ll assume that you’ll want something better than avisynth and pixiedust?
 

Encoder
If you spend $-000s to buy CCE-Pro, I think it comes with a Pentium workstation and proprietary capture board included. Is CCE pro the best encoder, or are there better packages used by the studios for DVD production?

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Originally posted by: Moth3r
Just fantasising about how the ultimate LD transfer could be produced. Come on experts, what do you think?

Discs
LD enthusiasts reckon that discs pressed at Pioneer Japan are generally better quality than those from Pioneer USA, so would the best discs be the Japanese "faces" set?

I'd give "Discs" an importance weighting of 50%. If the Japanese 'Faces' are the ones to have, I have them. Yay, me! If not, then presumably it's PAL that's better. Which I also have. Yay, me!

Player
You want the one that has the highest quality disc transport, laser and pickup. Processing electronics unimportant as we want the untouched composite video output. Pioneer HLD-X0 anyone?

Or -X9. I'd give "Player" a 25% importance weighting. NTSC, definitely the X0 or X9. Or maybe a Runco THX reference machine? PAL, pretty obviously the 925 or 2950. I've got a 925. Yay, me!

Time Base Corrector
Composite video fed into a standalone professional TBC unit to strip and rebuild the signal with perfect video timing. Who makes TBCs for the pro video market?

I have no real idea, but I'd estimate this is worth 3%. Presumably, a decent player would do a good job with video timing, and a good cap card would do a good job with poor timing.

Comb Filter
The TB corrected signal is fed into a professional comb filter, which will split the signal into component video outputs. I assume that the 3D motion-adaptive type of comb filter is the best?

Again, no real idea, but I'd guess this is maybe 5%? Even the lowly Philips 713x or Conexant 2388x cards do a better job than some of the best LD players, so I'm not sure the 'professional' filters can be all that much better. If you do the math right, it doesn't much matter what it costs. Does it?

Capture Hardware
What kind of professional capture board has a component video input?


Because you could fairly easily cap each of R, G, and B separately (i.e. one at a time with a standard cap card) once they've been split into component outputs, and then re-assemble, this only reduces hassle and isn't really a show-stopper. I say 1% different from a professional card with component in. Overall, I give Cap Hardware a 5% importance. Hey, this is my weighting!

Post-processing
I'll assume that you'll want something better than avisynth and pixiedust?


What's better? Something that costs money? I'm not sure that's a good way of thinking about it. Lowry Digital had the best money can buy, after all, and look what they came up with. I'd say PP is worth 5%, but AviSynth can probably account for 4.5% of the best available technology for any money. It's not fast, but we've all been waiting 25 years already, so what's a few days of processing time at this point?

OK, OK, there are some pretty nice digital grading packages that aren't free, and aren't likely to be duplicated as long as AviSynth is GUI-less. But that's now getting really, really, picky. Like 0.25% importance of the overall 5% I've assigned.

Encoder
If you spend $-000s to buy CCE-Pro, I think it comes with a Pentium workstation and proprietary capture board included. Is CCE pro the best encoder, or are there better packages used by the studios for DVD production?


I can't answer what's best, but I'd guesstimate that the best is better than what's easily available to the persistent amateur by no more than 15%. I think professional stuff doesn't necessarily do a better job, it just does it faster and with less complication. [As an aside, I had a pro sound card once, and it was very nice, but its main feature seemed to be the fact that you could plug in XLR mics, etc., directly. Other than that, the chipset was available elsewhere for less money.] Overall, the encoder is worth maybe 5%.

Finally, I'd give the person doing it an importance factor of maybe 12%, just so this all adds up to 110% (like it should, if you believe 'athaleets' -- I think athletes know better). Even given all the best equipment, some people would find a way to mess it up, but if you were even halfway competent, it would be possible to have something pretty stunning.

Of course, to even reply to this post, I've had to take liberty in assuming I qualify as an 'expert', which I may not. But it's a fun topic, nonetheless!
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Just found this little snippet while putzing around google:
my reference player is a runco ljrII, and i have been considering changing
over to an hld-x9. the ljrII is superb. i hear the hld-x9 has an edge up on
it, but have yet to audition one to form and express an educated opinion. i
would be interested in buying a used x9 and giving it an a/b comparison with
the runco, sending the loser to ebay as i did with my cld-99; the runco blew
it to hell and back--.

http://www.allvideotalk.com/requesting_info_about_HLD-X9-5801568-1251-a.html

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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We are currently compiling a set of masters transferred form a pioneer X0 player, via a professional broadcast capture system - so it will probably be the best you will get from the NTSC laserdiscs. With any luck it will look better than what most of you see from 'consumer' laserdisc players, so chances are the DVD we make will look better than the LD for 99% of you. The X0 basically has no issues with laser rot or introduced artifacts, so it is probably going to be as good as it gets. Then doing a full colour grade will be the next step, and then putting it down to DVD9 as a final step. The problem is that the faces and definitve laserdiscs are not great masters in the first place - there was dust on the lens elemens during the telecine process, and they have poor colour as well. Some of this can be corrected, but you just can't get something that isn't there to begin with.

I am still holding out hope that the PAL discs will give us something even better, there is definately more detail, better colour and no 3:2 pulldown issues to deal with. Getting it back to 24fps is absolutely no problem. The real task is finding a working PAL laserdisc player of the X0 calibre....
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Well, it would appear that we can now speak of the X0 project.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Now that I have the raw files on my HD... yes.

mebe, try downloading the swfixed from my ftp.
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Well, it would appear that we can now speak of the X0 project.


The X0 project, thats hot, just has a cool sound to it. I feel like ive just been let in on a government secret awsome, its like learning the truth about roswell

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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^ lol

NOTHING TO SEE HERE

MOVE ALONG - MOVE ALONG





A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

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… and take your time to look around this site before posting - to get a feel for this place. Don’t just lazily make yet another thread asking for projects.

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OK, its officially named the X0 project then
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I'm not familiar with the X0. Do you refer to the Pioneer HLD-X9 or one of the other MUSE Ld players from Japan?
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Where were you in '77?

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Originally posted by: SilverWook
I'm not familiar with the X0. Do you refer to the Pioneer HLD-X9 or one of the other MUSE Ld players from Japan?


Almost. Try Pioneer HLD-X0. Also an NTSC-only, Japan-only player.
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Thanks for clarifying that. I used to dream of owning an X9, with it's seemingly magical ability to read rotted discs. But I must admit, the X0 is also a beautiful machine!
http://www.laserdiscarchive.co.uk/laserdisc_archive/pioneer/pioneer_hld-xo/pioneer_hld-xo.htm
I only wish Star Wars had been among the MUSE titles released.
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Where were you in '77?

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Originally posted by: Laserman
I am still holding out hope that the PAL discs will give us something even better, there is definately more detail, better colour and no 3:2 pulldown issues to deal with. Getting it back to 24fps is absolutely no problem. The real task is finding a working PAL laserdisc player of the X0 calibre....

AFAIK there was never a PAL player of that calibre. The top 2 PAL machines are the 2950 and the D925. Not much to choose between them, but I have heard the 2950 has a less noisy picture.

There are issues I've found with my 1995 French PAL discs - the image is cropped more than the NTSC versions, and there are small portions missing at the end of some sides. I don't know if the German or Spanish sets have the same problems.

The 1989 French releases were apparently poor quality pressings.

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The French and German (and presumably Spanish -- those discs were made in France) versions all come from the same transfer. However, the side breaks between the French and German transfers are different, so all the frames are present between the two versions. Except (maybe) for any frames "missing" between film reels, since this is a different telecine transfer from the NTSC version.
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Would it be possible to get anything useful out of the mid 80's Japanese CAV widescreen versions? Whatever elements CBS/FOX used were barely ten years old at the time. The only hitch being the letterbox is higher on the screen than later U.S. versions, (On Star Wars anyway) to make more room for the subtitles in the lower black bar.
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Where were you in '77?

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Originally posted by: Moth3r
Originally posted by: Laserman
I am still holding out hope that the PAL discs will give us something even better, there is definately more detail, better colour and no 3:2 pulldown issues to deal with. Getting it back to 24fps is absolutely no problem. The real task is finding a working PAL laserdisc player of the X0 calibre....

AFAIK there was never a PAL player of that calibre. The top 2 PAL machines are the 2950 and the D925. Not much to choose between them, but I have heard the 2950 has a less noisy picture.

There are issues I've found with my 1995 French PAL discs - the image is cropped more than the NTSC versions, and there are small portions missing at the end of some sides. I don't know if the German or Spanish sets have the same problems.

The 1989 French releases were apparently poor quality pressings.


I think the nearest us PAL people got to a higher spec LD player was maybe a custom jobbie from The Theta corp either a data 3 or voyager which used the OEM internals from the pioneer players but then added custom vid processing stuff this made them have a supposedly better output then the standard pioneers AFAIK but they also cost a bomb £5,000 - 6,000 pic here

Voyager info here I haven't seen a PAL 2nd hand one for sale yet
Egon "Don't Cross the streams it would be very bad"

Peter "i'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing"

Egon "lmagine the 97 Star Wars Special Editions"
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The X0 is the step up from the X9 Silverwook. Better noise shielding in the electronics and a bunch of other enhancements, but single sided only. Gives a noticably better picture, but the X9 is still a dream machine!
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Many old school LD owners believe a single sided machine without CD playback has an edge over the combi players that eventually dominated Pioneer's line. If only my oldest player had digital sound and VNR!
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Where were you in '77?

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What player do you have - it should be a snap to mod it for digital out.
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It's a 1984 vintage Pioneer PR-8210. The old gas tube lasers are kind to discs with light rot/speckling, and the only Discovision title I have is actually watchable with it. (But a total mess on a modern machine.) It's also the luckiest player around, having survived the Northridge quake in '94 that trashed my 701. (Pays to be heavy and have big rubber feet!) It's worth it's weight in gold to me, so I'm not going to tempt fate by modding it!
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Where were you in '77?

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Wow, an 8210 - havent seen those since I used to service arcade games!
Is it the 8210 or the 8210A?
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According to http://www.laserdiscarchive.co.uk/laserdisc_archive/pioneer/pioneer_pr-8210/pioneer_pr-8210.htm
I have the PR-8210. I didn't even know until the late 90's it was industrial grade on the inside, or it's use in many an arcade game. Isn't the internet wonderful?
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Where were you in '77?

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Originally posted by: Laserman
The X0 is the step up from the X9 Silverwook. Better noise shielding in the electronics and a bunch of other enhancements, but single sided only. Gives a noticably better picture, but the X9 is still a dream machine!
Actually, the X9 was a step up from the X0 - the X9 had a more advanced comb filter built-in. But from what you say this may have been implemented at the expense of noise shielding or build quality (much the same as the PAL 925 has more features than the 2950, but some say the 2950 is still better for pic quality).

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Well, it was a step up in features, not in quality - the SVideo out had a better comb filter, the main upgrade was double sided playback, but the build quality (and price now) were considerably lower. When you crack them open and take a look at the design, the X0 is miles ahead, and you can see it in the noise levels in the picture between the two. The X0 went to insane levels to insure noise free playback, and it weighs about as much as my first car