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Collaborative Fanediting: An ROTJ Proposition (BACK ON TRACK WITH EMANSWFAN AT THE HELM--SEE POST 1488 OR OP FOR A LINK!)

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*FUNCT?* ;)

Yes, this thread is no longer defunct.  Emanswfan has stated that he would like to take over.  This is wonderful, since he's actually got some editing experience to his credit.  I feel I've offered what little I really had to offer.  Now Disney, I mean emanswfan will be taking over the Collaborative ROTJ project.  See his post announcing his willingness :)  I do hope that one day this becomes an amazing reality.  We just need able and willing people.  I'm sure it can be done.

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*DEFUNCT*

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(taken from post 1470)

I loved this thread.  I loved this idea.  In a sense, I've given up on it.  In another sense, I hope to see it come to pass.  In any case, I feel it wasn't a waste.  Let me tell you why:

I think there are two primary successes to be had from this thread:

1) There is great interest in a collaborative project.  Many people working together could surely get a great deal done.  It could get done faster, and it could be more thorough and radical.  I know that Adywan and others have some collaboration in their work, but I think this could be taken even further with marvelous potential.

2) Return of the Jedi is a good film (IMO) regardless of whatever silliness doesn't appeal to others.  but together, through discussion and debate, we've created an interesting potential edit, with many other ideas floating around that could be utilized, even if they're not in the script drafts I put out.  Many fascinating thoughts were stated.  The people here are brilliant at coming up with ideas.

I appreciate all the work others put into it.  I really did enjoy watching videos like Johannus's trailer and Ronster's concept film.  I like the mockup pictures and aalenfae's Anakin force ghost ending.  There is so much to love about this project, as much of a failure as it may seem in the end.  I never wanted to lead this project anyway.  I merely wanted to inspire others to do it.  I have a few more thoughts regarding its future:

1) I am finishing the script, somewhat based on the last vote, but admittedly taking a few liberties and changes.  Some things just don't work for me.  All the details you guys needed has been included, including the last vote.  I will upload my final script very soon, because I really am working on it, and not merely saying that I'll get around to it.

2) I will post that and several links into my signature.  My signature will be around even after I've lost interest in this site.  Hopefully some future editor will find my script, your videos and mockups, this thread full of so many ideas.  Hopefully that editor will be inspired but what he sees, and will make many of our ideas come to life.  I have my doubts that Adywan is interested in the direction we took with many of these ideas, but perhaps even he might get some inspiration out of it.

3) There are two fan films out there that have a lot of potential for us: SW:THX and Tydirium (too lazy to find trailers right now).  THX appears to still be at least semi-active, and Tydirium's site indicated perhaps it is restarting work.  If either of these is ever completed, they offer great footage that could be wonderful for our edit.  I'm watching Daneditor's work on his unreleased ROTJ edit (he made an edit that he released on FE.org, but this one is more experimental).  He uses various lower-quality clips from numerous sources, and to surprising effect.  Just imagining how it could look with a better source from a completed fan film makes me excited.  Hopefully these see the light of day, and then editors will have much more to work with.

At the end of the day, I still love this film, and hope to see a completed, wonderful edit.  Who knows when that will be, but I believe something great can come of it.  Thanks to everyone who worked on it with me.  You were a good bunch.

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(I am keeping the remainder of this first post as it was when I last edited it, just to give an idea of how the project went forward)

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I wish I were talented.  I really love what I've seen done by the gifted fan editors on this site.  That still hasn't stopped me of dreaming what I would do were I to create my own fanedit, but even if I had the software and hardware, I certainly don't have the time, patience, or natural gift.  I preface my proposition with this because I understand that what I am suggesting is rather bold, considering my involvement would be limited to suggestions and ideas.

With the immensely enjoyable ANH:R and the upcoming ESB:R, I've been looking forward to a complete trilogy.  I truly look forward to Adywan's finished masterpiece.  But at the same time, I'd love to see an ambitious edit of ROTJ sooner.  Unlike most on this site, I truly love ROTJ.  But since I started visiting and reading here, I have learned that there are problems to the story that never really bothered me before.  What I would love to see is an edit that would correct many of these issues and make this movie closer to the epic conclusion it once was.

The unfortunate thing about fan editing is that it is time consuming and difficult for the editor, not to mention the wait of the excited fans.  Some editors are more skilled at one aspect or another.  Many great edits burn out and the ideas with the edit may be permanently lost.

What I am proposing is an ambitious edit of ROTJ.  It would require the collaboration of several editors who could focus on their specialties.  It could be completed in a relatively short amount of time and could truly make a great edit.  This is already getting long, so let me make a summary.

A collaborative ROTJ edit would need the following (in order of when they must be completed):

-Story direction (a collaborative process, but with someone acting somewhat as a director to keep things uniform).  This includes ideas of how the story should be altered (i.e. tougher Ewoks), and how to implement these ideas
-CGI and/or model building, as such an ambitious edit would likely have additional ships taking part in the Battle of Endor.  CGI would likely be needed at other points as well, such as if a line is altered and the editors wish to alter mouth movement to match.
-Additional actor footage, as it seems likely that such an edit would want more Endor commando action and more pilot cockpit action.
-Voice impersonation and dubbing, if new lines are added.
-Music composition, if changes were to be made, along the lines of TheCutter's ROTS edit.  This could help with lengthened scenes or to better catch a mood.  Could especially be useful for Max Lame-os' Band.
-Sound editing and splicing.  If Darth Stewie or TheCutter have shown me one thing, it was how effectively lines could be spliced to change dialogue.  Furthermore, other sound editing would be needed, obvoiusly.
-Mattes could be useful, and Angel has demonstrated how to create beautiful backgrounds that could beautify the movie without making it overly PT-like.
-Deleted scene restoration.  This would be valuable for all editors, even those not taking part in such a project.  Several of the ROTJ deleted scenes could drastically improve the story if incorporated, in my opinion.  Some here have shown how to effectively fix up the low quality scenes, and perhaps someone could even upscale them from there.
-Color correction, to make it all match of course.
-Final editing.  Rough edits would likely come out, at various points, including a storyboard-type edit early on.  But when all the effects were completed, someone would have to ensure it all fits together smoothly.

Some might see this as a turn off because they do not wish to make a movie that would not meet their vision exactly.  Well, that's part of the beauty of this idea.  When your part of the movie is done, you can make your own edit using the same work.  GL owns the rights to this anyway, so what is to stop you from using your work on the edit to fulfill your own vision?  And the final product might save you several steps in making your own edit, as you could use it as a starting point.

One important thing to remember: all editors should share their work regularly.  If someone feels like dropping out, their work should not disappear with them, and someone else could take up where the previous editor left off.  This edit would allow the work to always move forward as long as someone still has the ambition to get it done.

The whole OT.com community could take some part in this, as many have brilliant ideas (such as my own :) and could offer voice impersonation and other skills.

First a team of at least two or three should begin formulating a plan.  And taking part in only an aspect of the edit leaves more time to work on any previous edits you may have undertaken.  Any takers?  Any thoughts?

 

Project updates:

Confirmed participants:

CGI modeling/animation and other special effects:
aalenfae
Angel
Jaitea 

Physical models:
Johannus

Background/mattes:
aalenfae
Angel

Lighting/Compositing:
Angel

Voices:
aalenfae
darth_ender 

Sound/music editing:
timdiggerm

Music composition:
GoodMusician

Scriptwriting/editing:
darth_ender 

Film editing:
MrInsaneA
Angel

Deleted scene restoration:
emanswfan

Deleted scene colorization:
TMBTM 

Story ideas/storyboarding/streamlining:
Anybody who wants to help out!

 

Handy links:

ROTJ ideal ending post (a rough idea of how I picture ROTJ ending)

Most recently updated script/editing guide

The ESB and ROTJ wishlist thread (intended for Adywan's forthcoming edit, but ideas available to all, I imagine)

The Return of the Jedi Wishlist (intended for Adywan's forthcoming edit, but ideas available to all, I imagine)

How would you have done ROTJ? thread (discussion on alternate ROTJ plot lines)

Pilot cockpit discussion thread, (to help coordinate space and cockpit shots)

MovieMistakes.com ROTJ list (listing all the noted errors in the film for the perfectionists)

Star Wars Technical Commentaries (detailed analysis of ship sizes in order to accurately scale vessels for the final battle)

Movie Mistakes' errors made into a doc (I simplified the pain-in-the-butt movie mistakes into a doc, which means no ads and visually easier to read.

 

Potential Sources of Footage and lines (the preview shows a great deal of compression; actually downloading will reveal their true quality):

Star Tours clip from advertisement (possibly best quality, 4:3, interlaced, needs some color correction)

More complete Star Tours video (also decent quality but not as good, interlaced, seriously needs color correction)

Star Wars Interactive Video Board Game audio, part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, part 5, part 6 (had a hard time extracting the audio, and a couple of these ultimately came out very short)

Star Wars Interactive Video Board Game post (actual game video in 19 rar files)

 

Implementing our ideas:

First set of assignments

 

Sharpening the story:

First round of voting: who voted how; tally; winners/losers

Second round of voting: all results

 

Collecting the contributions:

darth_ender's stuff (updated on 2/13/12)

Ronster's ideas

fishmanlee's alternate John Williams cues

ben_danger's collection of SSWR's suggestions

 

List of potentially useful footage (links forthcoming):

Star Tours (original) - over the surface of the Death Star

Star Tours: The Adventure Continues - approaching the Death Star

Star Wars: The Interactive Video Board Game - Vader walking down a Death Star corridor (needs expansion to improve resolution)

Ewoks: The Battle for Endor - Ewoks engaging in battle

Rebel Assault II - fighter cockpits (low resolution, only only acceptable as transmissions)

Fan Films: (list with descriptions forthcoming)

This post has been edited.

The ROTJ collaborative thread is a wealth of ideas, both on how to edit Return of the Jedi, as well as how to collaborate in an edit.

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Right, this seems like a good way to build up a pile of resources for ROTJ edits. There might be a final cut resulting, but that almost seems secondary to providing editors with new footage to use.

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Count me in! 

I'm not exactly sure where I'd best be of service, but I'd be really excited to get this off the ground.  

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I think this proposition is incredible.

There's not much that I think I can do to physically help, but, either way, I would love to help by inputing thoughts/ideas throughout.

One idea I would like to push forward right away is that I think there should be a goal to keep this edit 120+min. Many, many, ROTJ edits are under the 120 mark, and it really hurts. This is the epic conclusion. It needs to have a runtime suitable for a Star Wars film.

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Aalenfae,  I think you'd have several great areas of expertise, such as matted backgrounds, CGI, color correction, and editing.  You of course don't have to take them all on, but you clearly have the skills.  If I were to select my dream team, I'd probably pick you for CGI work, particularly working on my imagined expanded space battle.

I might not have much to offer, but I do some voice impersonations respectably, and I obviously like my own story suggestions, so hopefully I can do more than simply be a talent scout.

 

I think it would be beneficial to include the ROTJ Wishlist for Adywan as a starting point for considerations in this edit.

http://doubleofive.wordpress.com/rotj-fanedit-wishlist/

I also would respectfully submit my Battle of Endor ideas:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ESB-and-ROTJ-Wishlist/post/554304/#TopicPost554304

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ESB-and-ROTJ-Wishlist/post/554768/#TopicPost554768

And my rough crappy cut putting some of these ideas in place, slightly changed from initial description:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ESB-and-ROTJ-Wishlist/post/554719/#TopicPost554719

That whole thread, has great ideas, though, and should be skimmed for ideas.

Finally, I also suggest that we check out the Spence edit of ROTJ, as I especially like the ideas for introducing Luke on Dagobah and ending the movie with the funeral pyre.

EDIT: @Cobb, I agree, it should be kept at a good length.  That is why my ideas have often involved adding deleted, additional, or newly filmed footage, especially in the Battle of Endor.  That needs to be a grand conclusion, not simply an "excise the Ewoks" exercise.

This post has been edited.

The ROTJ collaborative thread is a wealth of ideas, both on how to edit Return of the Jedi, as well as how to collaborate in an edit.

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darth_ender said:

I think it would be beneficial to include the ROTJ Wishlist for Adywan as a starting point for considerations in this edit.

http://doubleofive.wordpress.com/rotj-fanedit-wishlist/

My mockups/ideas/mattes are open to all, not stricted to any project.

Unless they are exlusive for specific projects after with coordination with the editor.


-Angel

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This is a great idea and could work out really well!

darth_ender said:

with someone acting somewhat as a director to keep things uniform

If by "Director" you mean the guy who sits back and tells all the talented people what to do, count me in.

 

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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how about a sort of "multiple choice" approach? keep a list in the 1st post of all the contributed clips, and an idea of the film could be watched clip by clip.

brilliant idea though, if anything we need to keep the energy going.

the best way i have thought to keep up the time in the film would be an additional seperate subplot. this could be some extra pilots or troopers who have parallel experiences. perhaps at this point it could just be storyboarded or scripted, but available as a resource for the future.

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Neglify, I'm already the brilliant lazy director :)  Actually I'm just kidding.  I want to start this idea, but I doubt I'd be reliable as the guy who could forever keep the energy and vision in this project, as I will be even busier next semester according to my instructors.  I feel like I have good ideas to contribute though and could help steer the direction somewhat, but I really intend no false humility when I say I am not talented enough to fill most if any of these roles.  If/when this idea gets fleshed out, I think a new thread should be started by someone who could remain really devoted to this and keep the first post updated regularly.  This person would have to be the most consistent and devoted member to prevent loss of the project.

I'm thinking of a potential rough storyboard for the whole movie, and I will probably post some ideas tonight.  I agree with the thoughts of so many that Boba Fett deserved a greater demise, but I don't know how to truly pull that off.  It seems that if he had escaped Jabba's Palace and later faced Han in a showdown on Endor, that would have served your subplot very nicely.  I simply don't see it happening.  I don't know what other options there'd be for a subplot.

@timdiggerm, I forgot to mention that I see your point, though I hope both purposes would be served equally well.  That coincides with what you said, ben_danger about a multiple choice approach.  I hope a focused plot would emerge with clips available for others to use, but I agree that these things should be available for all.

This post has been edited.

The ROTJ collaborative thread is a wealth of ideas, both on how to edit Return of the Jedi, as well as how to collaborate in an edit.

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Simple, rough storyboard for first half:

Opening crawl is more dramatic.  It sets up that Luke is on Dagobah finishing his training.  Show Luke with Yoda dying and subsequent discussion.  Show conversation with Ben afterwards.  Show X-wing leaving Dagobah (flipped and slightly altered shot from ESB  could work).  Show Vader arrive at DSII, talk with Jerjerrod, etc.  I'd love to include deleted scene with Luke's construction of lightsaber, but continuity would need to be fixed with Luke on Dagobah, and it's not really necessary.  Show 3PO and R2 approaching Jabba's Palace and go from there.  After defeating Jabba, use restored deleted scene of sandstorm (would require dubbing, but with the noise of the storm it might be easier to get away with this).  Remove "promise to keep" line and Luke messing with hand.  Show X-wing and Falcon leaving Tatooine and include a couple lines about "meet you back at the fleet" but remove now redundant lines.  R2 beeps, Luke looks at hand and puts on glove, dark music, possibly slow, soft Imperial March, Luke says, "I just need to do some...thinking."  Cut to Emperor arriving at DSII.  More to come later.

The reason I don't think the saber construction would work in this plan is because Vader communicates with Luke after he's already talked with Obi-Wan and should already have had time "to do some...thinking."  I really like this line because it would explain Luke's late arrival to the attack planning meeting and show that in spite of his successful defeat of Jabba and Co., he still feels torn up about his approaching destiny with his old man.  He's also shown contemplating already about their similarities, and it would serve to mirror his severing his father's hand and looking at his own glove again later.  He's already pondering how easily he could become just like his father.  On top of that, his lightsaber is already on his belt on Dagobah and therefore would have to be digitally removed.

This post has been edited.

The ROTJ collaborative thread is a wealth of ideas, both on how to edit Return of the Jedi, as well as how to collaborate in an edit.

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Count me in the story/script department (?).

I like the project, and I really aim to see what can this sort of "open source" fan edit give!

PM me anytime you want

Greetings!

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Loved the story outline Ender! I'll rewatch Jedi and take a look at a couple of the other edits of it and see if there's anything good I can come up with.

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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darth_ender said:

Opening crawl is more dramatic.  It sets up that Luke is on Dagobah finishing his training.  Show Luke with Yoda dying and subsequent discussion.  Show conversation with Ben afterwards.  Show X-wing leaving Dagobah (flipped and slightly altered shot from ESB  could work).  Show Vader arrive at DSII, talk with Jerjerrod, etc.  I'd love to include deleted scene with Luke's construction of lightsaber, but continuity would need to be fixed with Luke on Dagobah, and it's not really necessary.  Show 3PO and R2 approaching Jabba's Palace and go from there.  After defeating Jabba, use restored scene of sandstorm (would require dubbing, but with the noise of the storm it might be easier to get away with this).  Remove "promise to keep" line and Luke messing with hand.  Show X-wing and Falcon leaving Tatooine and include a couple lines about "meet you back at the fleet" but remove now redundant lines.  R2 beeps, Luke looks at hand and puts on glove, dark music, possibly slow, soft Imperial March, Luke says, "I just need to do some...thinking."  Cut to Emperor arriving at DSII. 

I wouldn't have it any other way.

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Oh, btw, I'm totally in. I can... Um... Well, I could probly sketch storyboards. I've done a little sound editing, but really only music. Oh, and I can write okay.

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You can count me in for CGI and backgrounds.
I can also (though I'm still learning) do rotoscoping and stuff like that.


I am also an actor, and would be entirely willing to do voiceovers and such. 

I'd love to contribute story-wise, but I think there are others more talented than me in this field. 

 

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aalenfae said:

You can count me in for CGI and backgrounds.
I can also (though I'm still learning) do rotoscoping and stuff like that.

Count me as:

CGI modeling and some animation

Rendering and Light Department

Compositing

Storyboards-visualization and matte paintings.

As well for 2d Graphics


Aal can be a powerful asset :)


-Angel

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you can put me down in roughwork/thinktank/concepts or something like that!

i have final cut and a limited unprofessional understanding of its full application.

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It sounds like you have most of the ideas you need to get started with this and the structure you are suggesting is definatley the way to go dagobah before tatooine and cut back on the endor battle whist expanding the space battle.

Not killing Bobba Fett is an interesting idea also only just read this one and for him to carry out a later sub plot is even more intriging.

I would like to ask that the music that plays at the end of this edit should be across the stars and not the main star wars fanfare...as I think this would work better, during / after seeing luke cremating his father and make it alot more dramatic and give it more heart whilst tieing it to anakins past.

I do not like the prequel trilogy all that much but this particular piece of music was just amazing

thanks for reading anyway and good luck with this. If you don't mind I might chip in some ideas but I am not talented enough to do all the Art/ video work but i do get good inspration from time to time.

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Ronster said:

It sounds like you have most of the ideas you need to get started with this and the structure you are suggesting is definatley the way to go dagobah before tatooine and cut back on the endor battle whist expanding the space battle.

Not killing Bobba Fett is an interesting idea also only just read this one and for him to carry out a later sub plot is even more intriging.

I would like to ask that the music that plays at the end of this edit should be across the stars and not the main star wars fanfare...as I think this would work better, during / after seeing luke cremating his father and make it alot more dramatic and give it more heart whilst tieing it to anakins past.

I do not like the prequel trilogy all that much but this particular piece of music was just amazing

thanks for reading anyway and good luck with this. If you don't mind I might chip in some ideas but I am not talented enough to do all the Art/ video work but i do get good inspration from time to time.

After the cremation might be a good place for certain parts of Across the Stars, but then again, it may not. 

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Thanks for the great ideas and willingness to participate, guys.  I'm very excited and I've updated the first post!  I can't even remember which tune is called "Across the Stars."  It's early and my daughter and I are the only one's awake, but I will listen to it later and give my opinion on the matter.

Remember that debating ideas is the best way to sharpen our ideas, so the ultimate product may or may not include something you hold dear.  That may be hard, but please no one take offense over divergent opinions, and remember you can always edit it your way later using our group project as a base.  I always want to hear everyone's ideas, even if they've been turned down by the majority before.  I'm sure everyone else wants to hear any contribution you have.

I think we may be at a point where we can hammer our a solid story, and from there we can begin storyboarding significant changes that would ultimately require the assistance of our two special effects wizards :)  Again, thanks all those who have begun showing interest.  I'm really stoked about this project!

This post has been edited.

The ROTJ collaborative thread is a wealth of ideas, both on how to edit Return of the Jedi, as well as how to collaborate in an edit.

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I'd start ROTJ with a whole new subplot/opening focusing on the Rebel Alliance. If you remember how how ANH begins, we are basically introduced to a conflict that is much larger than the one we follow our heroes engage with (except right at the end). Maybe the size and scope of the film just needs to be BIGGER, so when we are reintroduced to Luke, Han and Leia, we understand that they are just players in this grand 6 film saga, not the entire focus.

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I remember somebody (maybe it was you) suggested a scene showing the Rebel Bothans stealing the Death Star details as a first scene.  Do you think that would work before Luke on Dagobah?  It seems reasonable to me, but it obviously would take some filming and would be far more complex than other real actor filming I've suggested (characters dying and such).  How might this theme be reintroduced later to keep the plot moving, as you've mentioned before?  Or do you have another idea?  Anyone else have any ideas?  Should it simply be given more attention in the opening crawl without being shown on screen?

The ROTJ collaborative thread is a wealth of ideas, both on how to edit Return of the Jedi, as well as how to collaborate in an edit.

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Based on our discussion in the PT/OT integration thread, I had a thought that I'm not sure we should use, but I think it's worth discussing.  Should Vader be a stronger character?  He certainly appears stronger in ESB, but when facing his master, he is a little weakling.  Now I see the purpose of this, as we're now trying to have a sympathetic character that in a sense is an addict.  We see his weak side and believe that because of it, he can never change.  This to me really builds up the emotion for a non-verbal turning on his master and hurling him down that shaft.  I really feel how difficult that choice must have been for him, but his love for his son conquers all the evil in his past (remember, I really like ROTJ).

However, given that we see a stronger Vader in ESB, and given that weakness takes away from his coolness, should we somehow make him appear a bit stronger?  Should his humility before the Emperor be a false humility, with that lingering thought of betrayal in the back of his mind?  Would this decrease the emotion of his choice in the end?  Would it preserve his coolness?

We're still early in this thread, but soon I think I'm going to have to start linking to various ideas in the first post.  This is going to be time-ocnsuming to keep up with.

The ROTJ collaborative thread is a wealth of ideas, both on how to edit Return of the Jedi, as well as how to collaborate in an edit.

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