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Info Wanted: What is the preservation project closest to the original 1977 release?

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Which edit is the closest to the actual 1977 theatrical release of Star Wars(e.g. Luke taking two tries to get his grappling hook attached, etc.)? It just floors me how much this movie has been changed over the years.

Arcadayn
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The actual picture cut has been identical until 1997. The only differences were in sound.

edit

and of course the opening crawl.
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Oddly enough, there is ONE visual difference. As the stormtroopers
are distracted by the duel between Vader and Kenobi, Threepio turns
and says, "Come on, Artoo. We're going." CUT to Han who says, "Now's
our chance, go!" In the version with the mono mix, these two shots are
reversed!


http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/star-wars-lost-footage.html
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Originally posted by: Red5

Oddly enough, there is ONE visual difference. As the stormtroopers
are distracted by the duel between Vader and Kenobi, Threepio turns
and says, "Come on, Artoo. We're going." CUT to Han who says, "Now's
our chance, go!" In the version with the mono mix, these two shots are
reversed!


http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/star-wars-lost-footage.html


Has this been confirmed? It feels like one of those Star Wars urban legends.
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Originally posted by: arcadayn
Which edit is the closest to the actual 1977 theatrical release of Star Wars(e.g. Luke taking two tries to get his grappling hook attached, etc.)? It just floors me how much this movie has been changed over the years.

I'm not convinced that ever existed, and is just a rumor. The music as written for that scene matches up perfectly. There's nothing there to suggest this incident was ever part of the movie.

Neil

Well at least the reversed surround channels have been addressed.

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AFAIK, these are both SW urban legends (and there are plenty of others).
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Originally posted by: arcadayn
Luke taking two tries to get his grappling hook attached, etc.)?
I'm with Neil on this one. This has been rumored for years, but never confirmed with any hard evidence. The Star Wars Cut Scenes group has discussed this one at length before, and I believe the conclusion we reached was that this is bunk unless evidence surfaces proving otherwise. The Lost Footage document you referenced, though a great piece of work, is rather old now... and a few things in there have since been disproven.

As for the reversed dialogue in the mono mix as mentioned above, I'm almost 100% certain that's wrong as well. I have the original Editdroid version of Star Wars with the mono mix included, and that would have stood out like a sore thumb while watching it since the video would not match the audio. I do wonder, though, if they are reversed on The Story Of Star Wars LP? The audio for that is taken from the mono mix. I used to be able to recite that whole album from memory, but right now I can't recall for certain how those lines play on there. And since I'm at work right now, I don't have the record handy. But if it was reversed on there, that could account for some people's memory discrepancies...

I'll have to check when I get home.

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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The order is not reversed on the "Story Of" LP.

Threepio: "Come on Artoo, we're going."

Cut

Han: "Now's our chance, go!"

Also, I hear people speak of the LP audio as if it's mono (or from the mono mix). It is not. It is most definitely in stereo. Dialogue and sound effects take advantage of the stereo field. Listen to Han scream as he's chasing after the stormtroopers in the Death Star or Vader coming through the door on the Tantive before he confronts Leia. Just a couple of vivid examples. This audio is seared in my brain now as I've been working on my "Story Of" project for almost 6 months. Which, by the way, is almost complete.

You can go about your business. Move along, move along.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4962/nowplayingbannermasterzc2.jpg
The Story of Star Wars
The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker

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Originally posted by: MoveAlong
The order is not reversed on the "Story Of" LP.

Threepio: "Come on Artoo, we're going."

Cut

Han: "Now's our chance, go!" That does jive with what the burn-in in my brain tells me.

Also, I hear people speak of the LP audio as if it's mono (or from the mono mix). It is not. It is most definitely in stereo. Dialogue and sound effects take advantage of the stereo field. Listen to Han scream as he's chasing after the stormtroopers in the Death Star or Vader coming through the door on the Tantive before he confronts Leia. Just a couple of vivid examples.
Hmmm... I think you may be right. In fact, Aunt Beru's voice on the LP doesn't match the alternate voice on the mono mix version, either. But the LP does contain the full "Open the blast doors!/Close the blast doors!" line and Threepio's "a power loss at one of the terminals will allow the ship to leave" line as well. I'm going to take a wild stab and say the LP is actually based on the... 70mm mix?! Someone correct me if they think otherwise.

This audio is seared in my brain now as I've been working on my "Story Of" project for almost 6 months. Which, by the way, is almost complete.


Great news for me, and a number of others, I'm sure!

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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Originally posted by: Red5

Oddly enough, there is ONE visual difference. As the stormtroopers
are distracted by the duel between Vader and Kenobi, Threepio turns
and says, "Come on, Artoo. We're going." CUT to Han who says, "Now's
our chance, go!" In the version with the mono mix, these two shots are
reversed!


http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/star-wars-lost-footage.html
This is completely false. The shots are not reversed.

Luke throwing the grappling hook twice is pure myth as well. There are still many myths involving the "original" version of Star Wars that are completely false.

Originally posted by: MoveAlong
Also, I hear people speak of the LP audio as if it's mono (or from the mono mix). It is not. It is most definitely in stereo. Dialogue and sound effects take advantage of the stereo field. Listen to Han scream as he's chasing after the stormtroopers in the Death Star or Vader coming through the door on the Tantive before he confronts Leia. Just a couple of vivid examples. This audio is seared in my brain now as I've been working on my "Story Of" project for almost 6 months. Which, by the way, is almost complete.

It most certainly is the mono mix. It may be presented in stereo, but it is the mono sound mix.

Originally posted by: SKot
Hmmm... I think you may be right. In fact, Aunt Beru's voice on the LP doesn't match the alternate voice on the mono mix version, either. But the LP does contain the full "Open the blast doors!/Close the blast doors!" line and Threepio's "a power loss at one of the terminals will allow the ship to leave" line as well. I'm going to take a wild stab and say the LP is actually based on the... 70mm mix?! Someone correct me if they think otherwise.


--SKot

Aunt Beru has only one line on the LP: "Luke, Luke!" And it does in fact match the mono mix line.

The Starkiller's Guide to the Mono Sound Mix

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Originally posted by: Darth Richard
would this Lp be usable to re-create the mono mix?
Pieces of it would, I'm sure... but it's very incomplete, and has narration and various parts of the soundtrack mixed throughout. It would be a bit of a task to extract the useful parts, but I wouldn't put it past someone here to be up to that task, combining it I suppose with the audio we already have.

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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Interesting... Starkiller, can you explain how the stereo LP mix was created from a mono source? I'm not being sarcastic. I truly would like to know and am curious now. What's your source for this info?

You can go about your business. Move along, move along.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4962/nowplayingbannermasterzc2.jpg
The Story of Star Wars
The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker

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I can't comment on how it was created because I really don't know. I would speculate that they simply stereo'd the effects.

But it is definitely the mono sound mix. Listen to the pre-Episode IV bootleg--it features the mono sound mix. The "Story of" LP is obviously much shorter than the actual movie, so it doesn't contain every scene, but it still features many of the differences. Compare the following scenes between the LP and the mono bootleg, or my mono mix web page. (Graciously hosted by our man Russs15)

-The alarm on the blockade runner
-Dice Ibegon's chirping sounds
-The sound effect when the Falcon comes out of hyperspace
-The sound of the Falcon caught in the tractor beam
-C-3PO's tractor beam line
-The comlink communication to Tarkin: "Governor Tarkin? We have an emergency alert in detention block AA-23."
-C-3PO's line: "What? Use the comlink? Oh my, I forgot, I turned it off."
-"Close the blast doors!"
-The countdown voice on the Death Star: "The rebel base will be in firing range in seven minutes." etc.
-During the Death Star battle, ship to ship transmissions aren't synthesized.

I believe these are all of the instances on the LP where a mono mix difference can be heard.

By the way, MoveAlong, I am still very much looking forward to your project. I saw the menus in the other thread and everything looks great.

The Starkiller's Guide to the Mono Sound Mix

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Starkiller -

I concede your points in matching up elements of the LP to elements of the mono mix - they seem to be the same. But is it still possible the LP could be taken from the 70mm mix? After all, isn't the 70mm mix still an unknown variable at this point, given that we don't have a real copy of it? So we don't know how different or similar it is from the other mixes.

What I'm saying is, what if the 70mm mix has the same (or many of the same) elements that the mono mix does? It was also the first mix created as I recall, and if the LP was created early on and before the mono mix existed, then it would make sense that the LP's sound would be taken from the 70mm mix in that case.

All of this is just curious speculation on my part, so I could be totally wrong.

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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IIRC, the 70mm (6-track) mix and the 35mm stereo mix were both made from the same 4-track master and are therefore pretty similar to each other. I also recall reading that the LP was made from the mono mix, with some stereo effects added.
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SKot,

I see what you're saying, and you're right that the 70mm mix is largely uncertain. Until an actual 70mm print surfaces (ha!) all we have are fuzzy memories and stray facts. However, I believe it to be very close to the 35mm Dolby mix.

We do know that the 70mm mix was created first, followed by the 35mm Dolby Stereo mix. These two mixes were prepared for opening day, May 25, 1977. Since they were created nearly side-by-side, I would think they would be nearly identical in terms of content. The mono mix was created a bit later, going into circulation in June of 1977. We also know from interviews that many changes were made to it--and we have the bootleg to confirm that.

A release date for the Story of Star Wars album would be helpful. I would guess it would have been summer 1977.

Originally posted by: THX
IIRC, the 70mm (6-track) mix and the 35mm stereo mix were both made from the same 4-track master and are therefore pretty similar to each other. I also recall reading that the LP was made from the mono mix, with some stereo effects added.

I believe that is correct, and it would confirm that the 70mm 6-track and 35mm Dolby Stereo mixes would be nearly identical.

The Starkiller's Guide to the Mono Sound Mix

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Well unless is Ben Burt gives up his audio mix collection (he has each and everyone ever made for the OT grr lol) we might never know.
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If only that elusive 70mm mix would turn up somewhere. Surely someone out there must have bootlegged a 70mm showing of the film back in the day, even just the audio? Hope springs eternal, I suppose. In a perfect world, LFL would trot out the 70mm mix as an alternate soundtrack on the OUT releases. Given that it won't be anamorphic, there should be room for it... but in a perfect world, it would be anamorphic too.

I've been listening to The Story Of Star Wars LP on headphones just now, and it's definitely got stereo effects on it. Much of the dialogue sounds pretty mono, though, while sound effects bounce around from ear to ear.

Also, I've noticed how difficult it is to notice the difference between Beru's "Luke... Luke!" line on the LP and the other version from the 35mm mix. Not as obviously different as her later lines, which aren't on the LP of course.

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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Originally posted by: The Starkiller

-The alarm on the blockade runner
By the way, I remember when I was a kid and I originally heard the klaxon on the blockade runner from The Story Of Star Wars, I thought that sound was actually the dying screams of the horrifically injured Rebel soldiers... which really gave me chills, especially after how much more graphically the novel (which I'd read previously) described that opening battle:

"A beam of intense light struck the head, sending pieces of armor, bone, and flesh flying in all directions."

"Screams of injured and dying humans--a peculiarly unrobotic sound, Threepio thought--echoed piercingly above the inorganic destruction."

I hadn't seen the movie at this point, so that's all I had to go on. Doubtful it would have made a PG rating if it had been just like the novel described it.

--SKot

Projects:
Return Of The Ewok and Other Short Films (with OCPmovie) [COMPLETED]
Preserving the…cringe…Star Wars Holiday Special [COMPLETED]
The Star Wars TV Commercials Project [DORMANT]
Felix the Cat 1919-1930 early film shorts preservation [ONGOING]
Lights Out! (lost TV anthology shows) [ONGOING]
Iznogoud (1995 animated series) English audio preservation [ONGOING]

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Originally posted by: SKot
If only that elusive 70mm mix would turn up somewhere. Surely someone out there must have bootlegged a 70mm showing of the film back in the day, even just the audio?
--SKot
This is our best bet, I think. Many kids (myself included) snuck tape recorders into theaters and recorded the movies, well the audio at least. Somebody, somewhere surely did this at a 70mm presentation of Star Wars. Some friends and I did it at a 70mm showing of TESB, but that tape disappeared in the early '80s. Such tapes could be invaluable from a historical perspective, but not necessarily for preservation.

Originally posted by: SKot
By the way, I remember when I was a kid and I originally heard the klaxon on the blockade runner from The Story Of Star Wars, I thought that sound was actually the dying screams of the horrifically injured Rebel soldiers... which really gave me chills, especially after how much more graphically the novel (which I'd read previously) described that opening battle:

"A beam of intense light struck the head, sending pieces of armor, bone, and flesh flying in all directions."

"Screams of injured and dying humans--a peculiarly unrobotic sound, Threepio thought--echoed piercingly above the inorganic destruction."

I hadn't seen the movie at this point, so that's all I had to go on. Doubtful it would have made a PG rating if it had been just like the novel described it.

--SKot

That's great! It is a rather ominous sound.

The Starkiller's Guide to the Mono Sound Mix

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Are there supposed to be links to sound clips on the site? If so they won't work on my browser.
I'm using Mozilla Firefox.

EDIT: I take it back. I used internet explorer and it worked fine. Very interesting!

My stance on revising fan edits.

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Originally posted by: Hal 9000
Are there supposed to be links to sound clips on the site? If so they won't work on my browser.
I'm using Mozilla Firefox.

EDIT: I take it back. I used internet explorer and it worked fine. Very interesting!

Yeah, The Starkiller has embedded them using Windows Media Player, but Microsoft never made an embeddable version for any browsers other than its own.

Starkiller, a better option would be Quicktime Player, but probably the best option would be to use a Flash play button and include the MP3 link for those without Flash installed. You can get a Player Button from musicplayer.sourceforge.net. Just download the latest version of the Player Button version and replace your Windows Media code with the following -

<object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" data="musicplayer.swf?&song_url=sounds/03_stormtrooper_mono.mp3" width="17px" height="17px">
<param name="movie" value="musicplayer.swf?&song_url=sounds/03_stormtrooper_mono.mp3" />
<a href="sounds/03_stormtrooper_mono.mp3">Link</a>
</object>


Just replace the three URLs to the appropriate MP3 file and change the Flash file URL if you don't have it in the same folder as the HTML page. Also, you may decide to move the link on the third lone to outside the object tag so that the link always appears, personal choice.

http://www.kineticpast.com/starwars/thecheatlaserdisc.gif
Ooh, a laserdisc. The Cheat's playin' something on a laserdisc.
Everything is better on a laserdisc. Whatever happened to the laserdisc? Laserdisc!

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Russ/Starkiller: in addition, if you're feeling really industrious, you might want to replace all the samples from the telecine bootleg with samples taken from the audio file I posted in another thread a few days ago: http://www.filefactory.com/?dc2f6a.
The audio quality is a bit better, there's not so much background hiss.

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Thanks for the advice, Gillean. I didn't realize there would be problems with other browsers. I just used what I was familiar with when I created it, hence the embedded WMP. I use IE6 myself, so I never saw any problems. I am working on a similar guide for the audio to The Empire Strikes Back, so I will take your advice into consideration.

Moth3r,

You know, I had your file somewhere on my hard drive when I created this thing. I had grabbed it from a.b.sw. It never even occurred to me to use it for samples. D'oh! The quality is definitely a bit better. Perhaps I will revisit it sometime. I'd actually like to replace the Dolby Stereo samples I used (from the '82 time-compressed LD) with the '85 CAV LD as well.

The Starkiller's Guide to the Mono Sound Mix