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Qui-Gon Jinn... sounds like the name of a beer

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I've always felt that one of the biggest flaws with these prequels, well specifically Episode 1 - aside from too much Jar Jar Binks - is that there wasn't enough Obi-Wan Kenobi in Episode 1. Obi-Wan Kenobi & Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader are the only ones (aside from the droids) to appear in both this trilogy and the original trilogy; I was 15 when TPM came out, and I assumed that Obi-Wan would more or less be the lead character, with little Anakin right beside him. I foolishly believed that the movie would revolve around Obi-Wan meeting & befriending Anakin, and the beginning of their friendship (I imagined they'd have a big brother/little brother dynamic), which is crucial to the plot and to Anakin's downfall. Instead, Obi-Wan Kenobi was reduced to a secondary character/2nd banana lurking in the background while Qui-Gon Jinn, played by Liam Neeson, stepped up to the plate to get Anakin into the Jedi Order, and upon his death, he gets Obi-Wan to promise him he'll train the boy since "He... is the Chosen One."

Now before I go any further, let me just say this is not an anti-Liam Neeson thread/rant. I like Liam Neeson; he's a damn fine actor and he was very good in films like "Darkman", "Rob Roy", and "Michael Collins" and, despite the overall wooden feeling of "Menace", I thought Neeson brought a quiet dignity to Qui-Gon Jinn (that sounds like the name of a beer; imagine going into the cantina and saying "I'd like a qui-gon jinn please, with an obi-wan to go."). On his own, Qui-Gon probably could have been a very interesting character, but there's just one problem - he's a continuity error.

Look back to the original "Star Wars" and to "Return of the Jedi" for a moment, long considered the weakest of the old trilogy but still lightyears ahead of the prequels (they may be silly, but I dig those crazy Ewoks). In the first movie, Obi-Wan seems to emphasize this idea of Anakin as "a good friend", a line he repeats in ROTJ. In ROTJ, the ghost of Obi-Wan Kenobi says to Luke "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

In Episode 1, we see none of this. Obi-Wan & Anakin have like 2 to 3 exchanges of dialogue while Anakin follows Qui-Gon around. As Chefelf pointed out on the 78 reasons to hate episode 1 page, Qui-Gon was basically a carbon copy of the old version of Obi-Wan from the first movie; albeit Qui-Gon couldn't make up his mind over being a maverick and being the wise, mysterious, aloof old master. Having said that, the idea of Qui-Gon was to serve as the grandfatherly "wizard" archetype that you see in so many mythological hero quests and, at the same time, to be the "liberal" Jedi Knight (as a friend of mine once put it) and for Obi-Wan and all the other Jedi we see in #1 to be "conservative" Jedi Knights. This all greatly contradicts Obi-Wan's speech from ROTJ about his first impression of Anakin; throughout the film, Obi-Wan & Anakin barely interact, which hurts Episode 2 where their relationship is supposed to be strained and in turmoil because we never saw them having much of a friendship to begin with. This is due to the mis-use of Qui-Gon.

I'm not saying Qui-Gon couldn't have a role in the prequels; I'm just saying that I feel that Qui-Gon Jinn should have been used differently. Qui-Gon should have been one of the more "conservative" Jedi who think it a bad idea to take in the devil child that is Anakin, and Obi-Wan should have been the "liberal" Jedi putting his ass on the line for Anakin; and upon his death, Qui-Gon relents and encourages Obi-Wan to follow his heart, even though he disagrees with the Anakin thing. I know the "conservative older man VS the liberal younger man" is cliche, but for the sake of continuity and keeping in step with Obi-Wan's ROTJ speech, this is how it should have been. Of course, I have other ideas on how the prequels should have been handled, but I'll save those for another thread.

Then the fact that Qui-Gon, as the apparent mentor of Obi-Wan, clashes with "The Empire Strikes Back" where the ghost of Obi-Wan says that Yoda instructed him. I keep waiting for a line explaining that Obi-Wan was initially trained by Yoda and later given to Qui-Gon but it never materializes.
I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an Obi-Wan to go.

Red heads ROCK. Blondes do not rock. Nuff said.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v72/greencapt/hansolovsindy.jpg
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I agree with you on the seeming stiffness of the relationship between Obi Wan and Anakin. However, we've also got to take into account the ten years that elapsed between TPM and AOTC. It is possible that they have that friendly sort of relationship and it developed during that time. However, a point was soon reached when they would need to discard the "familiarity" of their acquaintance (as we know friendship to be) and be more master/padawan... a much more professional sort of relationship.

Also, with how little time we actually saw Obi Wan and Anakin together in AOTC, it could also be possible that they do, in fact, still have that more familiar relationship, but the only times they were together in the movie, they were on the hunt (guarding Amidala, hunting down the bounty hunter on Coruscant) and needed to resort to a more dignified relationship for the sake of finishing the task at hand.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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Qui-Gon Jin beer? Nah I don't think so.

Han Solo VS Indiana Jones, you're on fire! You've created, what, 10 topics so far?
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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He's been a member for less than 5 days and he's allready got more topics up than I do...

I actually agree with what you said, VS...
But I'm more surpised to see Bossk actually defending their relationships in the prequels.

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I'm not defending it. I just like to play devil's advocate and make people think of other possibilities as well. Just a couple of points you can't rule out right now.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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Maybe RotS will make their relation ship make sense.

But it seems to me he was allready so screwed-up in AotC that his attacking Obi-wan won't seem dramatic at all.

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I'd been thinking about doing a thread on this, so great minds must think alike, VS.

Let me say first and formost Qui-Gon Jinn is my favorite character. Now let me explain why his character is one of the biggest flaws in the prequel trilogy.

The way I understand the story development of TPM, originally there was only Obi-Wan. This is the best scenario. At some point Lucas decided he wanted Obi-Wan to have a partner of sorts, so he created Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon evolved into Obi-Wan's apprentice, who would die at the end of the film clearing the way for Anakin. This is a rather lame and predictable course of events, so eventually Lucas decided to switch the master and apprentice.

-A quick side note, do you think people watching Star Wars in order with no knowledge of the original trilogy would mark Obi-Wan for death in TPM? Qui-Gon is the main character, Anakin looks to become an important player in future events, Qui-Gon wants to train him, but Obi-Wan being his apprentice forbids this. I think it will be an interesting turn on our thoughts, as we know Qui-Gon must die to make way for Obi-Wan, but those watching the saga chronologically will assume Obi-Wan will die to make way for Anakin.-

Back to the matter at hand, as VS pointed out, Qui-Gon IS a HUGE continuity error. But looking at the origins of his character he could have been nothing else. He essentially replaces Obi-Wan's assumed role in the beginnings of the saga, and really messes things up in the original trilogy. Now Obi-Wan was not the Jedi who discovered Anakin was a great pilot and was amazed how strongly the force was with him, or was willing to take it upon himself to train him as a Jedi, it was Qui-Gon. The bond we all felt develop between Anakin and Qui-Gon really should have developed between him and Obi-Wan. Without it, we are left with a bitter apprentice who had hoped for a better master endlessly bickering with his bitter master who only trained the boy because it was his dying master's last request. You thought Obi-Wan was a liar in ANH, he's an even BIGGER liar in RotJ. No certain points of view can explain THESE inconsistencies.

This also ties into Obi-Wan's age. Lucas has said time and again the ANH lightsaber duel is so dull and slow because Vader is a half-machine cripple and Obi-Wan is an old man. Alright, fair enough about Vader, but Obi-Wan an old man? He's 25 in TPM, 35 in AotC, 38 in RotS, which makes him...56 in ANH. Wow. "Surely he must be dead by now," Tarkin said of Obi-Wan. HE'S LESS THAN SIXTY YEARS OLD!!! Not to mention Qui-Gon was in his prime as a Jedi at 50. Once again, Qui-Gon's existence hurts the saga.

To me at least, it is quite obvious that Obi-Wan should have been around 40 in TPM, and discovered an 18 year old Anakin Skywalker, the best starpilot in the galaxy. Amazed with how strongly the force was with him, Obi-Wan would take it upon himself to train him as a Jedi. Anakin would grow into a cunnning warrior, a powerful Jedi, and most importantly, a good friend. This would make his fall to the darkside and fallout with Obi-Wan all the more tragic. Why Lucas felt the need to do things the way he did is beyond me.
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Seriously...

Boba Fett doesn't have the Force to draw on and he's still kicking Vong butt at 61!

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Nice to know I'm not alone necessarily.

I have too much time on my hands. Maybe school starting next week will change that...

Also if Anakin turns into Darth Vader while he's in his early 20s, and 20 some years pass between ROTS and ROTJ, then he can only be like in his late 40s when Luke pulls off the mask to reveal the face of the late Sebastian Shaw.
I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an Obi-Wan to go.

Red heads ROCK. Blondes do not rock. Nuff said.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v72/greencapt/hansolovsindy.jpg
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Appearantly unleashing the full power of the Force, dark or light, causes people to age rapidly. It happened to Palpatine, Jacen Solo, ect.

A scene in RotS where Obi-Wan channled a lot of Force at once might explain his appearant lack of stamina in ANH.

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But from the spoiler pics and from the trailer for EpIII it seems Palpatine was already wrinkly and deathly pale, apparently he was using the Dark Side to mask his appearance.
"I don't mind if you don't like my manners. I don't like them myself. They're pretty bad. I grieve over them during the long winter evenings."
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Originally posted by: TheSessler
But from the spoiler pics and from the trailer for EpIII it seems Palpatine was already wrinkly and deathly pale, apparently he was using the Dark Side to mask his appearance.


I think that is really going to play out like this: Mace Windu knocks Palpatine ugly before getting killed, you know, just so he don't go out like some punk. Then Palpatine looks in the mirror and embraces the Dark Side like never before, enabling him to best Yoda in a saber duel. He takes Yoda's saber (hence why we never see him wield one again) and banishes Yoda to a swamp. Yoda farts on his way out. Then Palpatine realizes
how old and worthless his current apprentice is, not to mention this octogenarian is actually better looking now, and so he makes a whole bunch of secret plans to make that hotheaded Anakin Skywalker succumb to the Dark Side, kill the old guy, and become the new Apprentice. This climactic scene takes place in the Emperor's Board Room, where he puts out his hand in Jedi Mind Trick fashion and says to Dooku, "You're Fired."

Little does Skywalker know that his real plan is to make his new apprentice even uglier than he is. He sends him to a volcano to fight with his old master, figuring the lava can do an even better job than Mace Windu at knocking somebody ugly. And in a stunning new plot twist: This is ultimately because Palpatine is trying to seduce some young chick named Mara Jade, who currently thinks this this Skywalker guy is hot and wants to see if that mechanical hand can go like a machine all night, if ya know what I mean. Little does Palpatine know that Mara is a very, very niche fetishist, who is attracted to all guys named Skywalker with a mechanical hand.

Iris out to the credits.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Originally posted by: TheSessler
But from the spoiler pics and from the trailer for EpIII it seems Palpatine was already wrinkly and deathly pale, apparently he was using the Dark Side to mask his appearance.


Indeed. That old Darth Plagueis sure was a genius! Wasn't Qui-Gon Jinn involved in that whole midichlorian scandle somehow? I can't remember...
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You do realize that Mara Jade is two years YOUNGER than Luke Skywalker, right?

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
You do realize that Mara Jade is two years YOUNGER than Luke Skywalker, right?


The Mara Jade you know of in the comics....see what ADigitalMan failed to mention is that eventually the emperor realizes that Mara Jade has this fettish, so he kills her, but not after taking a sample of her dna in hopes that he can then make a clone and alter its genetics to eliminate this fetish. It works for a period of time, until the emperor dies allowing the Mara Jade story line to progress as you know it.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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Exactly. Darth Simon has uncovered another great plot twist. Mara Jade is a clone. She should have been called Maara Jaade or something like that.

And now we will understand what the term "Emperor's Hand" really means.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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I agree with Han Solo VS Indiana Jones and Commander Courage completely in regards to their points about Qui-Gon being a continuity error.
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This issue bugged me at first, but then as I watched Ep I again (and again) and later Ep II, I realized Yoda did instruct Obi-Wan, so what he said was also true, at least from a certain point of view. Yoda gives advice and instruction to Obi-Wan after Qui-Gon's passage. Just because we don't see him in a training scenario doesn't contradict what Obi-Wan said. Plus, if Qui-Gon was dead, and Qui-Gon's mentor Dooku left the order, then next up the chain is Yoda. This is likely why Yoda continues to have as much direct involvement with Obi-Wan as he does. With thousands of Jedi protecting the Galaxy, Obi-Wan does get a lot of face time with Yoda. Consider this: If a Jedi Knight is the equivalent of middle-management in a 1,000+ corporation, it's very unusual for somebody at that level to get a lot of face time with the board of directors. Or, if you prefer a religious analogy (perhaps more fitting for a Jedi) it is very rare for parish priests to get face time with the Archbishops or the Pope. I'd say that Obi-Wan gets a healthy amount of instruction from Yoda.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Maybe he's just senile or left Quigon out because, since dead, Quigon was incapable of helping Luke--unlike Yoda.

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