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Blu-ray (or HD-DVD) questions

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Ok, I already have the HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 and am very satisfied. However, I'm contemplating getting a Blu-ray player as well (the Samsung $500 one). My question is that I believe that a "regular" HD disc player needs to be connected to the internet somehow to download firmware and whatnot. How would I have to hook it up? Secondly, the $500 seems reasonable at this point, would the prices go down anytime soon (please don't mention PS3) i.e are there going to be "budget" blu-ray players?
40,000 million notches away
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Maybe you should wait a few months and see if Bluray is dead by then?

My understanding is that players don't currently require a net connection but that it will become necessary at some point down the track. But then I haven't followed development closely.

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I'm guessing that Blu-ray players are going to have a big drop in price fairly soon. Might be good for you to wait. Since you own an HD-DVD player already, that's all the more reason to wait in light of the "format war." Though of course if there's a movie that you must have on Blu-ray then it's just a matter of what you're willing to pay.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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It's not so much about updates as keeping you on a short leash.
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Man I'm an idiot. For some bizarre reason I thought you had to have your player hooked up to the internet like you do with an Xbox 360 or something. Anyway, I'm definitely planning on getting one, but you guys make sense when you say wait.
40,000 million notches away
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I have an Xbox 360, and I'm planning on getting the HD-DVD add on drive soon. I've never seen picture on either format, but reading about them, I definately prefer HD-DVD. They've got all the In-Movie-Experience Features, and my something I perticularly like, the HD-DVD/DVD combo format. That's really cool, because I can have one disc to play in all players in my house. One side is HD, one side is Standard Def. It pushes the price up a little bit, but it is a cool little feature for the discs that support it.

I'd like to have a player for both formats, but I doubt I'll have enough money any time soon to get any sort of Blu-Ray player. I'm glad I already have a 360 so I can get the relatively cheap HD-DVD add on drive.
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"For some bizarre reason I thought you had to have your player hooked up to the internet"

Actually, this is true for Blu-ray. The BD+ allows BR manufacturers to render a player key unusable, and it can apply this copy-protection to specific models and even whole manufacturers (if, for example, a hardware hack was created for a specific player.) Future discs would not play on your player until you connected it to the internet to get new keys. Oh, and you will have to pay for these future updates as well.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


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Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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I think a bunch of hackers recently broke that, so it's really become rather moot.
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Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Originally posted by: twister111
Originally posted by: Ripplin
I've seen a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD combo player, but I can't think of what it's called. Anyone know?


I've seen a HD-DVD/Blu-ray/DVD a.k.a 3-in-1 player once. I think it was called BH100. I have yet to see a Blu-ray/HD-DVD only player though.



Yeah, the problem with the LG BH100 is that you cannot play all of the extra content and the interactive feature on HD-DVD discs (known as HDi), only the movie portion of the HD-DVD is playable. However, Samsung as announced that they will release a combo player by Christmas, the BD-UP5000, which will be able to fully utilize all of the features on all formats, including Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.
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"I think a bunch of hackers recently broke that, so it's really become rather moot."

You don't understand, this affects stand-alone players most of all. If a brand of player becomes compromised, then Sony will disable future playback for that brand. If this is grandma's Blu-ray player, she'll have to buy a new one.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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They don't have the guts to follow through on that. Not even the movie industry is willing to alienate its customers that badly . . . is it?

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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This is the movie industry we're talking about.

Anywho, not having graduated from college yet, I really don't have the money to even think about getting a Blu-Ray or HDDVD player at the moment, so I may be a bit biased when I say 'wait to see who wins the format war'.

But that's how I feel. It seems completley pointless to have a chunck of movies only released in one format just because the big dogs of the industry can't agree on a standard format.

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"They don't have the guts to follow through on that. Not even the movie industry is willing to alienate its customers that badly . . . is it?"

I guess you didn't hear about the Sony root-kits?
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
"They don't have the guts to follow through on that. Not even the movie industry is willing to alienate its customers that badly . . . is it?"

I guess you didn't hear about the Sony root-kits?


They took a lot of flack for that. I won't even buy a CD that comes from Sony because of it. I wanted Weird Al's latest, but he's published by Sony, so oh well.

Installing root-kits on peoples machines is one thing. Completely disabling grandma's hi-def DVD player is quite another. They don't dare disable a hardware based player. There would be so much backlash that it would be suicide.
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You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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And the hits just keep on coming.

And by 'hits' I mean devestating blows to the testicles. I almost feel sorry for Sony at this point. Almost.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
And the hits just keep on coming.

And by 'hits' I mean devestating blows to the testicles. I almost feel sorry for Sony at this point. Almost.


Heh heh, that is funny.

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"Installing root-kits on peoples machines is one thing. Completely disabling grandma's hi-def DVD player is quite another. They don't dare disable a hardware based player. There would be so much backlash that it would be suicide. "

What you don't understand is that it's not just Sony's call....it's up to the movie studios. Did you think Gates wanted so much video copy-protection in Windows Vista? MS pretty much had to put it all in, otherwise the studios wouldn't give him the rights for hi-def video playback on computers. Imagine not having HD-DVD and Blu-Ray playback on the newest OS. Talk about a killer-app.

If the studios find out a player is compromised, and they tell Sony to pull the plug on that model, Sony has to comply. (I know Sony is one of the "Studios", but they aren't the only one.) Future player updates will be mandatory for new keys, and it is the consumer that will have to pay for them. There are echoes of DIVX here.

This is a prime component of Blu-Ray's copy-protection. They touted this as a major advantage. If they don't enforce it, then it's no better than HD-DVD's.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
If the studios find out a player is compromised, and they tell Sony to pull the plug on that model, Sony has to comply. (I know Sony is one of the "Studios", but they aren't the only one.) Future player updates will be mandatory for new keys, and it is the consumer that will have to pay for them. There are echoes of DIVX here.


Which is what would kill it completely. Both formats are really struggling to take off right now (despite sales figures, I'm sure they're nowhere near what's needed for critical mass). If they kill a player, that'll be the end of it. No one in their right mind is going to replace their player everytime one gets compromised. The more time goes by before one gets compromised, the greater the chance of the studios having no choice but to leave the players alone or risk millions of people with useless machines.

Of course, the advantage to that happening would be that it would put DRM front and center to Joe Public. Right now, most people don't "get it". Disable their hi-def player and force them to buy a new one and they'll get it real quick. In fact, I'd venture to guess that if that did happen, the US government would introduce new laws to keep it from happening again so fast that Hollywood's head would spin.

So far, Sony has tried to introduce new copy protection mechanisms that have only really affected people that want to make copies of their movies. They have yet to seriously cripple any hardware. The moment they, or anyone else, do, it's over.

Divx failed before, it will fail again if they try to do something similar.

F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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"Of course, the advantage to that happening would be that it would put DRM front and center to Joe Public. Right now, most people don't "get it". Disable their hi-def player and force them to buy a new one"

Joe Public wouldn't have to buy a new player...they would have to connect it to Sony (via a network connection) and get new keys. That being said, the initial result would be enough to piss off a customer. Regardless, that's how the technology is supposed to work.

"So far, Sony has tried to introduce new copy protection mechanisms that have only really affected people that want to make copies of their movies. They have yet to seriously cripple any hardware."

Incorrect. The root kit automatically installed itself onto any computer the CD was played on, whether or not someone was trying to make a copy. Not only were many computer OSes damaged, but when Sony sent a "fix" designed to remove the rootkit, it only made things worse. There was a lawsuit for folks whose computers were disabled, but it only came out to about $70 a person.

[EDIT]

Here's a good description:
A good analogy is with a physical lock and key. With DVDs, someone figured out how to make a universal key that opened every lock. With AACS, keys have been stolen, but the AACS lock can effectively be ‘re-keyed’ so that new keys are needed, making the older keys useless.

While the AACS keys had originally been stolen from HD DVD discs, it didn’t take too long before similar keys on Blu-ray discs had also been stolen, resulting in the release of two software programs – BackupHDDVD and BackupBluray.

The AACS copy protection body is supposed to be able to issue new keys on future HD DVD and Blu-ray movies that invalidate the stolen ones, but questions remain as to how successful this will actually be. Could it not work as intended on early generation HD DVD and Blu-ray players, causing playability problems with movies in the future?


I know, for example, that the latest Pirates of the Carribean BD had a newer key, because an older key had been made public. Ironically, the new key for the POTC BD had been made public before the DB had been released, rendering the new protection moot.
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
Incorrect. The root kit automatically installed itself onto any computer the CD was played on, whether or not someone was trying to make a copy. Not only were many computer OSes damaged, but when Sony sent a "fix" designed to remove the rootkit, it only made things worse. There was a lawsuit for folks whose computers were disabled, but it only came out to about $70 a person.


Actually, I was referring to the "protections" they've tried to put in place on some DVDs. Underworld: Evolution is one I know of off the top of my head. That movie played fine in my Cyberhome player all the way until they kill the main bad guy. Right at that point, it freezes up. It does it everytime. We ended up having to watch the remainder of the movie on my computer. This was all in an effort to prevent people from copying it (this one among others). They inserted some weird blank cells that apparently make the player jump all over the disc and are suppose to fool the copying programs. Of course, the copying programs were just updated to ignore all that and worked just fine afterwards.

That's why the system fails. That's why it'll always fail. That's why the studios need to just knock it off, let people make copies of their discs if they want, and go after the large scale pirates (and the inside leaks). People like my parents, my siblings, and my extended family will always have someone like me that when they mention a "problem" with a disc, will know exactly what's wrong and how to fix it. They (the studios) just keep playing these futile games that only piss off their customers.
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Well, then let me clarify the copy protection scheme, because I think I gave you the wrong idea.

If a BD player is deemed "compromised", then future BDs will have codes that are unplayable on that particular model. All the BDs you have at that point will still play, but newer ones will not. The playable isn't completely disabled, it just won't play future releases until you plug into the internet and download new keys (which you will have to pay for.)
MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
JediRandy: They're certainly beyond any repair you're capable of making.


MeBeJedi: You aren't one of us.
Go-Mer-Tonic: I can't say I find that very disappointing.


JediRandy: I won't suck as much as a fan edit.
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