Ask the godless heathen - AKA Ask An Atheist — Page 2

@Ryan

If I were to decide that what was beneficial to the human species was to eliminate all non-beneficial members of society (i.e. mentally and physically ill, old, and homeless people among others) and go around murdering them all, how would you be able to tell me I was wrong? Because you felt empathy for those people? What if I said that I overcame my empathy to aid the human species, because those people only held others back and I was doing others a favour by ridding them of useless people. What would you say to that?

EDIT: You said that feeling empathy and ignoring it makes people evil, but what is that opinion/belief founded on? Why do think it is that that makes a person evil instead of something else? Suppose I think that good and evil is determined by someone's willingness to do what is good for society as a whole and suppose that was killing off the baby boomers because people were held back by caring for them and too many working hands were wasted on them instead of doing something that would benefit society in the long run. Who would you be to say that the way I determined right from wrong was incorrect while the way you did so was?

Sorry, I edited my post. Please respond to the edit.

timdiggerm said:

The Most Reputable Source said:

The adult Hitler did not believe in the Judeo-Christian notion of God, though various scholars consider his final religious position may have been a form of deism.

So there's that.

I know right from wrong

How?

 Exactly, hence the Holocaust, but he was not atheist,

In handwritten notes, Hitler also argued for a critical review of the Bible, to discover what sections met an "Aryan" spirit. In these same notes, he took a "biogenetic" history as the main biblical emphasis, arguing that original sin was solely racial degeneration - sin against the blood.

Some Nazis believed Christianity as a whole was too "judaised" to leap the racial hurdle for a religion appropriate to the German "racial soul" and "Germanic morality." Yet Hitler did voice a great deal of support for an "Aryan" Christ, generally a figure who fitted completely with his own agenda: a violent anti-Semite named Jesus.

This can be seen in Hitler's favourite Bible passage, Jesus cleansing the Temple of the money changers (Mark 11, Matthew 21), which he saw as an early model for his own perceived battle against "materialistic" Jews. At one point he reduced the mission of Christ to this: "it is only the means that change over the course of time; what was earlier a whip is today a blackjack."

We should also remember that "Christ" is not Jesus's surname, but a title, and it is still not certain whether Hitler actually believed that Jesus was divine. He referred to Jesus as "Lord and Saviour" but simultaneously argued that the sole reason for the crucifixion was an anti-Semitic struggle "for this world" rather than the next.

That said, Hitler often did argue in favour of the notion of a creator, a deity whose work was nature and natural laws, conflating God and nature to the extent that they became one and the same thing. This again came back to race, and meant that he argued inMein Kampf that one could not avoid the "commands" of "eternal nature" or the "Almighty Creator": "in that I defend myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

For this reason, some recent works have argued Hitler was a Deist. He famously argued in a major speech of 1938 that Nazism was "a volkisch-political doctrine that grew out of exclusively racist insights" and was based on the "sharpest scientific knowledge." Yet in this same speech he stated the Nazi "cult" was solely one which respected nature, and so that which was "divinely ordained."

J

@ Ryan

Religious texts? Who said anything about those? What I am asking is how you can be so sure that using empathy and your brain are the way to discern good from evil? What about acting on what would help society survive the longest and be most productive? Why do you think that that is not a legitimate way to determine the difference between right and wrong?

Since I attack religion for "knowing" I have to do the same on the other side.

Leo, what makes you so sure there isn't a God?

timdiggerm said:

Yeah, and that's fine. My argument is, as I think you know, just that atheists can't say the holocaust is wrong for any justified reason, not that they caused it.

 There is no need for a justified reason.

I thought about starting this thread and then saying that I probably wouldn't answer any questions because atheists don't have a set set of beliefs. Any question that gets answered just comes down to the answerer's view on life. 

So I just want to make it clear that these answers don't represent the beliefs of all atheists. I'm sure we all know that but it's a common misconception that all atheists think the same thing and treat others and the world the same way. I actually see atheism as the belief system that faces the most prejudice (let me be VERY clear that what I mean by this is that I think many theists have a low opinion of atheists - I do not mean AT ALL that they are persecuted or are the victim of any sort of violence, because they aren't).

What really annoys me the most is when theists see atheists as people who have no soul or sense of empathy. Again, I don't mean you guys, but I've met people in the world like this. Just anecdotally I feel like a lot of theists have a low opinion for atheists that they'd never have for a theist with a different religion.

Personally, my hands are off religion so it annoys me when people try to argue against my atheism (which, again, I don't think you see a theist doing this to a theist of a different religion) because I just want no part in religion. For me, God doesn't exist, and that's that. 

Of course, this makes it all the more rewarding when I meet a theist who totally respects my beliefs.

This wasn't really a question, but whatever.

DominicCobb said:

I thought about starting this thread and then saying that I probably wouldn't answer any questions because atheists don't have a set set of beliefs. Any question that gets answered just comes down to the answerer's view on life. 

So I just want to make it clear that these answers don't represent the beliefs of all atheists. I'm sure we all know that but it's a common misconception that all atheists think the same thing and treat others and the world the same way. I actually see atheism as the belief system that faces the most prejudice (let me be VERY clear that what I mean by this is that I think many theists have a low opinion of atheists - I do not mean AT ALL that they are persecuted or are the victim of any sort of violence, because they aren't).

What really annoys me the most is when theists see atheists as people who have no soul or sense of empathy. Again, I don't mean you guys, but I've met people in the world like this. Just anecdotally I feel like a lot of theists have a low opinion for atheists that they'd never have for a theist with a different religion.

Personally, my hands are off religion so it annoys me when people try to argue against my atheism (which, again, I don't think you see a theist doing this to a theist of a different religion) because I just want no part in religion. For me, God doesn't exist, and that's that. 

Of course, this makes it all the more rewarding when I meet a theist who totally respects my beliefs.

This wasn't really a question, but whatever.

 I respect everyone's beliefs, but I don't agree with most of them. I have a question for you though. Supposing Christianity was true and you died an atheist. Since you want no part in religion, would you want to go to heaven or hell?

I'm just asking out of curiosity. To further clarify, I will define heaven and hell for you. Hell: total absence of God (and supposedly of most or all good); heaven: the presence of God and the worship of him. Both of these are for an infinite length of time and one cannot go from one to the other.

Indeed.

If God were to ignore my actions in this world and cast me to hell simply because I didn't worship him...I submit that he/she is a god not worthy of worship.

Ryan McAvoy said:

RicOlie_2 said:

@ Ryan

Religious texts? Who said anything about those? What I am asking is how you can be so sure that using empathy and your brain are the way to discern good from evil? What about acting on what would help society survive the longest and be most productive? Why do you think that that is not a legitimate way to determine the difference between right and wrong?

You tell me?

(However for myself, I am sure that murdering half the planet to make life for the other half better is wrong because I'd feel empathy for the other half).

The point I was making about Religious texts is that they don't have the answers for every issue (Right or wrong) yet I'm sure you yourself can (And do) make your own mind up on those things anyway. So why not do that with everything?

 No, religious texts don't have the answers for every issue. That is why I am Catholic. Catholics are supposed to accept the Bible and Church teachings as truth, using both to help decide what decision to make when the answer is not given by either one (meaning acting in accordance with those teachings and texts and in the spirit of them--practically every decision can be made that way).

You are, whether intentionally or not, avoiding my main question. How can you be sure that murder is wrong if it can have practical benefits for society in some cases? What are your reasons for thinking that empathy is not a weakness and a fault itself? Is survival of the fittest, the most cooperative, or the competitive cooperative the way to go and what makes you think that instead of something else? If someone disagreed with you why are you so sure you would be right?

RicOlie_2 said:

DominicCobb said:

I thought about starting this thread and then saying that I probably wouldn't answer any questions because atheists don't have a set set of beliefs. Any question that gets answered just comes down to the answerer's view on life. 

So I just want to make it clear that these answers don't represent the beliefs of all atheists. I'm sure we all know that but it's a common misconception that all atheists think the same thing and treat others and the world the same way. I actually see atheism as the belief system that faces the most prejudice (let me be VERY clear that what I mean by this is that I think many theists have a low opinion of atheists - I do not mean AT ALL that they are persecuted or are the victim of any sort of violence, because they aren't).

What really annoys me the most is when theists see atheists as people who have no soul or sense of empathy. Again, I don't mean you guys, but I've met people in the world like this. Just anecdotally I feel like a lot of theists have a low opinion for atheists that they'd never have for a theist with a different religion.

Personally, my hands are off religion so it annoys me when people try to argue against my atheism (which, again, I don't think you see a theist doing this to a theist of a different religion) because I just want no part in religion. For me, God doesn't exist, and that's that. 

Of course, this makes it all the more rewarding when I meet a theist who totally respects my beliefs.

This wasn't really a question, but whatever.

 I respect everyone's beliefs, but I don't agree with most of them. I have a question for you though. Supposing Christianity was true and you died an atheist. Since you want no part in religion, would you want to go to heaven or hell?

I'm just asking out of curiosity. To further clarify, I will define heaven and hell for you. Hell: total absence of God (and supposedly of most or all good); heaven: the presence of God and the worship of him. Both of these are for an infinite length of time and one cannot go from one to the other.

 Yeah, I think most respect others beliefs. If I said otherwise, that was a mistake. I just think many don't.

As to your question, I don't know. From what I learned when I was a Catholic hell really sucks a dick in terms of how well your stay will be, but if it's just the "total absence of God" than I don't know, why do I want God? What makes him so great? I don't know.

Also, wouldn't I go to purgatory first and ask for forgiveness? That's what I'm banking on.

To be honest, a lot of religious concepts seem to me to be confusing or hypocritical. Sometimes I think about how I could make Catholicism make more sense. But that's obviously neither here nor there. 

RicOlie_2 said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

RicOlie_2 said:

@ Ryan

Religious texts? Who said anything about those? What I am asking is how you can be so sure that using empathy and your brain are the way to discern good from evil? What about acting on what would help society survive the longest and be most productive? Why do you think that that is not a legitimate way to determine the difference between right and wrong?

You tell me?

(However for myself, I am sure that murdering half the planet to make life for the other half better is wrong because I'd feel empathy for the other half).

The point I was making about Religious texts is that they don't have the answers for every issue (Right or wrong) yet I'm sure you yourself can (And do) make your own mind up on those things anyway. So why not do that with everything?

 No, religious texts don't have the answers for every issue. That is why I am Catholic. Catholics are supposed to accept the Bible and Church teachings as truth, using both to help decide what decision to make when the answer is not given by either one (meaning acting in accordance with those teachings and texts and in the spirit of them--practically every decision can be made that way).

You are, whether intentionally or not, avoiding my main question. How can you be sure that murder is wrong if it can have practical benefits for society in some cases? What are your reasons for thinking that empathy is not a weakness and a fault itself? Is survival of the fittest, the most cooperative, or the competitive cooperative the way to go and what makes you think that instead of something else? If someone disagreed with you why are you so sure you would be right?

 I personally think it's up to your own beliefs. I personally believe that murder is wrong 99.9% of the time. This has nothing to do with my religion or lack thereof, just how I view life in general.

TV's Frink said:

Indeed.

If God were to ignore my actions in this world and cast me to hell simply because I didn't worship him...I submit that he/she is a god not worthy of worship.

 So you want to worship a God you don't believe in for all eternity rather than be rid of him forever? The first option is what I call heaven, the second is what I call hell.

What you are unintentionally saying is "if God decided that I wouldn't have to worship him for eternity because I didn't worship him on earth, I wouldn't want to worship him."

DominicCobb said:

RicOlie_2 said:

DominicCobb said:

I thought about starting this thread and then saying that I probably wouldn't answer any questions because atheists don't have a set set of beliefs. Any question that gets answered just comes down to the answerer's view on life. 

So I just want to make it clear that these answers don't represent the beliefs of all atheists. I'm sure we all know that but it's a common misconception that all atheists think the same thing and treat others and the world the same way. I actually see atheism as the belief system that faces the most prejudice (let me be VERY clear that what I mean by this is that I think many theists have a low opinion of atheists - I do not mean AT ALL that they are persecuted or are the victim of any sort of violence, because they aren't).

What really annoys me the most is when theists see atheists as people who have no soul or sense of empathy. Again, I don't mean you guys, but I've met people in the world like this. Just anecdotally I feel like a lot of theists have a low opinion for atheists that they'd never have for a theist with a different religion.

Personally, my hands are off religion so it annoys me when people try to argue against my atheism (which, again, I don't think you see a theist doing this to a theist of a different religion) because I just want no part in religion. For me, God doesn't exist, and that's that. 

Of course, this makes it all the more rewarding when I meet a theist who totally respects my beliefs.

This wasn't really a question, but whatever.

 I respect everyone's beliefs, but I don't agree with most of them. I have a question for you though. Supposing Christianity was true and you died an atheist. Since you want no part in religion, would you want to go to heaven or hell?

I'm just asking out of curiosity. To further clarify, I will define heaven and hell for you. Hell: total absence of God (and supposedly of most or all good); heaven: the presence of God and the worship of him. Both of these are for an infinite length of time and one cannot go from one to the other.

 Yeah, I think most respect others beliefs. If I said otherwise, that was a mistake. I just think many don't.

As to your question, I don't know. From what I learned when I was a Catholic hell really sucks a dick in terms of how well your stay will be, but if it's just the "total absence of God" than I don't know, why do I want God? What makes him so great? I don't know.

Also, wouldn't I go to purgatory first and ask for forgiveness? That's what I'm banking on.

To be honest, a lot of religious concepts seem to me to be confusing or hypocritical. Sometimes I think about how I could make Catholicism make more sense. But that's obviously neither here nor there. 

 The reason hell is supposed to be such a crappy place to vacation is because the absence of God isn't supposed to be a great thing. Think about this analogy of hell:

You are given the entirety of earth on which you can do whatever you want and go wherever you please. The downside is that you are the only human being on the planet, because you get it for yourself, after all. After an eternity--an eternity!--would you not get bored. After the boredom, wouldn't you find it torture being alone on the planet and having done everything you could possibly do a thousand times over, yet knowing you hadn't even been there for a billionth of the amount of time you were going to be there?

Because I believe God is infinite, then an infinitely long stay in heaven would still be enjoyable. The earth is finite, so if you were given the earth as your hell (that's not what I necessarily believe hell is, I'm just trying to make the concept more clear) you would eventually get pretty darn sick of it.

I'm sure that if God is truly just then he will account for the things that made you decide he didn't exist. No one can really claim to know how that works though.

I never knew that Twilight Zone episode was actually how people viewed hell. Interesting, thanks for the clarification.

timdiggerm said:

Sure it does. If a belief system has undesirable or unappealing end-results or implications, that changes how people view it.

That would be the fault of the belief system or enlightened/disillusioned person. Morality still stands on its own as a separate topic.

I'm not saying atheists don't have morals and I'm not saying theists do. I'm interested in the justification for those morals.

Some can be justified logically. If a man sleeps with his friend's wife, that friend could find out and become an enemy. The adulterer then has less support in life. What does that have to do with God or a supreme authority?

Others are visceral. It's a form of opinion.

RicOlie_2 said:

TV's Frink said:

Indeed.

If God were to ignore my actions in this world and cast me to hell simply because I didn't worship him...I submit that he/she is a god not worthy of worship.

 So you want to worship a God you don't believe in for all eternity rather than be rid of him forever? The first option is what I call heaven, the second is what I call hell.

What you are unintentionally saying is "if God decided that I wouldn't have to worship him for eternity because I didn't worship him on earth, I wouldn't want to worship him."

 I'm saying a perfect being does not require worship.  Worship is a human invention.