The fact that it wasn’t released yet is completely irrelevant.
I find your argument completely irrelevant. I don’t care about scripts, I don’t care about EU, and I don’t care about plans or intent, all I care about is what is up on that screen. And you cannot argue that the 97 SE had any prequel elements on that screen because they didn’t exist until 1999.
It’s really just semantics. Technically, you can’t say that the 97SE had prequel references because the prequels hadn’t come out yet.
But if you modify your wording a little, you could simply say that the 97SE contained elements that were intended to tie in with the upcoming prequels. So maybe instead of calling them “prequel references”, we can call them “prequel tie-ins”. The inclusion of Coruscant in the 97SE of ROTJ is a prequel tie-in.
Also on the '95 VHS of ROTJ George even spoke briefly about the Prequels during his Leonard Maltin interview and mentioned the first film would likely be out in '98 if not '99. So the cat was already out of the bag even before the SE’s.
It depends of the Episode:
ANH: colors of 1997 are better; Greedo’s death is better in the 2011 version; Jabba is slighty better in the 2004/2011 versions; no fucking cgi rocks in 1997/2004; better Ben’s dragon call in 1997; hum… hard call on this one !
TESB: 2011’s version any day. 2004 is almost identical but a few more things have been fixed (wampa’s arm, relfections in Bespin’s windows, sabers). 1997 has a best Emperor dialogue scene but 2004/2011 fixes continuity issue of how the Emperor looks; 1997 also has the terrible Luke’s scream; so yeah, 2011 is overall the best version. I don’t mind the colors of this one so I would even dare to say it’s my prefered version of them all, although I prefer Boba’s voice and a few dialogues of the original theatrical cut.
ROTJ: hard call again. I like the complete celebration scene of 2004/2011; don’t like Vader’s “No” of 2011; don’t like the sabers of 2004; don’t mind the colors of 2004/2011; like the “Emperor’s slug” thing fixed in 2011; I don’t mind (and I’m even used now) Sebulba passing by and the blinking ewoks; Shaw’s old Anakin beats Hayden’s young version (if George had tried to make a old Hayden’s Anakin make-up I would probably prefered that, be he didn’t); so it’s really close between 1997 and 2011.
Leave it to Mala to turn this thread from “which version is least bad” to “this is why I love the special editions!”
I would put this in my sig if I weren’t so lazy.
Leave it to Malà, with an accent on the second “a”.
TESB: 2011’s version any day. 2004 is almost identical but a few more things have been fixed (wampa’s arm, relfections in Bespin’s windows, sabers).
The sabers weren’t touched in the 2011 version. They are identical to the 2004 version.
Leave it to Mala to turn this thread from “which version is least bad” to “this is why I love the special editions!”
I assumed all are equally great because no Daisy Ridley squirrel face.
Indeed. Was I mistaken with ROTJ ? So this is a fair point for the 1997 version.
Leave it to Mala to turn this thread from “which version is least bad” to “this is why I love the special editions!”
I assumed all are equally great because no Daisy Ridley squirrel face.
You assume well. But Daisy and 1997 Jabba share the same eyes, so 2004/2011 are better.
Leave it to Mala to turn this thread from “which version is least bad” to “this is why I love the special editions!”
I assumed all are equally great because no Daisy Ridley squirrel face.
You assume well. But Daisy and 1997 Jabba share the same eyes, so 2004/2011 are better.
Is this the part where you claim the dudes inside Jabba are better actors?
Leave it to Mala to turn this thread from “which version is least bad” to “this is why I love the special editions!”
I assumed all are equally great because no Daisy Ridley squirrel face.
You assume well. But Daisy and 1997 Jabba share the same eyes, so 2004/2011 are better.
Is this the part where you claim the dudes inside Jabba are better actors?
The animators sure are for the 1997/2004/2011 versions. But I prefer a version of ANH without Jabba… as well as a version of the Postlogy (uhuh) without Daisy.
For me, the 97 is by far the best SE. It’s much closer to the OUT. It also lacks the same prequel references of the later versions, despite its obvious issues (97 Jabba, Luke’s scrwam, etc). In fact, besides Luke’s scream and other little things, I almost prefer the 97 Empire. There’s just enough wrong with it that I will always prefer the 1980 version, but it’s still a great film. I hate the 04/11 emperor and Boba Fett.
Wazzles said:
I hate the 04/11 emperor
I really don’t understand this. The old Emperor was just awful, it was the worst part of ESB and it stuck out like a sore thumb when viewed with the rest of the series. Literally the only possible reason I can imagine for preferring the chimpanzee-eyed old woman over Ian Fucking McDiarmid is nostalgia. That’s it. I mean seriously, ask yourself: If it was the other way around, would you still prefer the chimp Emperor? Hell no, you’d think it was among the most outrageous of all SE changes. Let’s not kid ourselves. If that was the only change George made, that would have been just fine with me.
Regarding the Emperor, both 1980 and 2004 versions have problems. The 1980 version doesn’t look like the ROTJ Emperor whilst the 2004 Emperor also looks different to the ROTJ Emperor. Even though it’s the same actor, both his appearance and acting don’t really match what we see in ROTJ.
So for me, neither one really matches up with ROTJ. But at least with the 1980 version, it’s the original one. Despite it later not making sense, there’s something to be said about watching the pure 1980 TESB without thinking about later movies. With the 2004 Emperor, all I’m reminded of is a prequel movie.
With all that being said, I would have mostly been okay with an Emperor change done the way Adywan did it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0q0CF5Y1cI
At least that Emperor looks like he does in ROTJ. Maybe the acting is still a little stiff but I like it better than what we got.
Yeah no. The 2004 Emperor looks MUCH closer to the ROTJ Emperor because he is the real Emperor played by the same actor. Of course it’s not going to be exactly the same cause it was done over 20 years later but it’s still far, far closer than an old woman with chimpanzee eyes. Sorry, that’s just not gonna cut it. What you say about it being the “original” pretty much confirms what I said about nostalgia being the only reason to prefer it. So yeah, I get how that might pull you out of it more if you’re really that much of a purist, but to me it pulls me out way more knowing it’s a totally different actor and different everything. It’s not the Emperor I know, it’s just wrong. Besides, Palpatine was the best part of the prequels so I don’t mind the prequel connection here. Not that it is much of one considering, of course, McDiarmid was in the next movie anyway. And I don’t mind that he doesn’t look exactly like he did in ROTJ cause, again, out of universe it makes sense and in-universe you could just say that the Emperor changed up his style a little in between films, or it looked different cause it was a hologram. Either way, better than old woman chimpanzee with weird voice acting that sounds nothing like him.
Wazzles said:
I hate the 04/11 emperorI really don’t understand this. The old Emperor was just awful, it was the worst part of ESB and it stuck out like a sore thumb when viewed with the rest of the series. Literally the only possible reason I can imagine for preferring the chimpanzee-eyed old woman over Ian Fucking McDiarmid is nostalgia. That’s it. I mean seriously, ask yourself: If it was the other way around, would you still prefer the chimp Emperor? Hell no, you’d think it was among the most outrageous of all SE changes. Let’s not kid ourselves. If that was the only change George made, that would have been just fine with me.
I have two problems with the new emperor:
Yeah no. The 2004 Emperor looks MUCH closer to the ROTJ Emperor because he is the real Emperor played by the same actor. Of course it’s not going to be exactly the same cause it was done over 20 years later but it’s still far, far closer than an old woman with chimpanzee eyes. Sorry, that’s just not gonna cut it. What you say about it being the “original” pretty much confirms what I said about nostalgia being the only reason to prefer it. So yeah, I get how that might pull you out of it more if you’re really that much of a purist, but to me it pulls me out way more knowing it’s a totally different actor and different everything. It’s not the Emperor I know, it’s just wrong. Besides, Palpatine was the best part of the prequels so I don’t mind the prequel connection here. Not that it is much of one considering, of course, McDiarmid was in the next movie anyway. And I don’t mind that he doesn’t look exactly like he did in ROTJ cause, again, out of universe it makes sense and in-universe you could just say that the Emperor changed up his style a little in between films, or it looked different cause it was a hologram. Either way, better than old woman chimpanzee with weird voice acting that sounds nothing like him.
To me, it doesn’t matter that the 2004 Emperor looks closer to the ROTJ one; the bottom line is that he still looks different. My point in mentioning that it reminded me of the prequels was that it took me out of the movie, not that I disliked McDiarmid in the prequels. And it took me out of the movie because it was clearly ROTS-era Emperor in a movie that’s supposed to be chronologically very close to ROTJ.
So, having said that, neither one looks like ROTJ Emperor. Yes, the 2004 version looks closer, but not close enough that it doesn’t take me out of the movie. His acting is even different. Therefore, in the absence of a choice that allows me to enjoy a proper continuity between the films, I look towards which version is more historically significant. It’s not nostalgia because, like I said, I wouldn’t have minded if it had been done the way that Adywan did it.
Yeah no. The 2004 Emperor looks MUCH closer to the ROTJ Emperor because he is the real Emperor played by the same actor. Of course it’s not going to be exactly the same cause it was done over 20 years later but it’s still far, far closer than an old woman with chimpanzee eyes. Sorry, that’s just not gonna cut it. What you say about it being the “original” pretty much confirms what I said about nostalgia being the only reason to prefer it. So yeah, I get how that might pull you out of it more if you’re really that much of a purist, but to me it pulls me out way more knowing it’s a totally different actor and different everything. It’s not the Emperor I know, it’s just wrong. Besides, Palpatine was the best part of the prequels so I don’t mind the prequel connection here. Not that it is much of one considering, of course, McDiarmid was in the next movie anyway. And I don’t mind that he doesn’t look exactly like he did in ROTJ cause, again, out of universe it makes sense and in-universe you could just say that the Emperor changed up his style a little in between films, or it looked different cause it was a hologram. Either way, better than old woman chimpanzee with weird voice acting that sounds nothing like him.
To me, it doesn’t matter that the 2004 Emperor looks closer to the ROTJ one; the bottom line is that he still looks different. My point in mentioning that it reminded me of the prequels was that it took me out of the movie, not that I disliked McDiarmid in the prequels. And it took me out of the movie because it was clearly ROTS-era Emperor in a movie that’s supposed to be chronologically very close to ROTJ.
So, having said that, neither one looks like ROTJ Emperor. Yes, the 2004 version looks closer, but not close enough that it doesn’t take me out of the movie. His acting is even different. Therefore, in the absence of a choice that allows me to enjoy a proper continuity between the films, I look towards which version is more historically significant. It’s not nostalgia because, like I said, I wouldn’t have minded if it had been done the way that Adywan did it.
That’s exactly how I feel about it. If they really nailed the Emperor’s look and voice in the SE, I would say (admittedly, somewhat reluctantly) that it’s a change I enjoy. But they didn’t. They botched it. If both options are wonky in their own ways, but one is how the film was originally made and the other has screwy dialogue and imagery from the prequels, it’s a perfectly straight forward decision for me that the original is superior.
Just to get this out of the way. I prefer the original Emperor because of nostalgia AND pacing. In the new Emperor scene Ian McDiarmid just sorta drags his dialogue and its just not one of his better performances. He speaks like he’s literally reading it straight off cue cards. Density mentions the old emperor sticks out like a sore thumb. Sorry I’m gonna have to say that about the new Emperor. The scene just drags now with the extended dialogue and McDiarmid’s rather overly monotone performance. It just looks like something that was shot in two or three takes with little to no motivation or rehearsal. Had they used the same dialogue as the original and McDiarmid perhaps reviewed the original and rehearsed it to get a better feel of the Emperor in that moment it may have been better. Granted the original is not much better either but due to nostalgia and pacing I choose it over the new one. I can’t fully blame McDiarmid since the extra dialogue was obviously not his choice but it hurts the scene. As far as how the Emperor looks, the new one was shot over 20 years later so obviously you can’t fully replicate the Emperor’s original look and for that reason I’m willing to accept it.
Leave it to Malà, with an accent on the second “a”.
I once used the wrong accent. (á) Do I get half credit for that?
Just to get this out of the way. I prefer the original Emperor because of nostalgia AND pacing. In the new Emperor scene Ian McDiarmid just sorta drags his dialogue and its just not one of his better performances. He speaks like he’s literally reading it straight off cue cards. Density mentions the old emperor sticks out like a sore thumb. Sorry I’m gonna have to say that about the new Emperor. The scene just drags now with the extended dialogue and McDiarmid’s rather overly monotone performance. It just looks like something that was shot in two or three takes with little to no motivation or rehearsal. Had they used the same dialogue as the original and McDiarmid perhaps reviewed the original and rehearsed it to get a better ]feel of the Emperor in that moment it may have been better. Granted the original is not much better either but due to nostalgia and pacing I choose it over the new one. I can’t fully blame McDiarmid since the extra dialogue was obviously not his choose but it hurts the scene. As far as how the Emperor looks, the new one was shot over 20 years later so obviously you can’t fully replicate the Emperor’s original look and for that reason I’m willing to accept it.
This is my opinion as well.
As far as how the Emperor looks, the new one was shot over 20 years later so obviously you can’t fully replicate the Emperor’s original look and for that reason I’m willing to accept it.
No, they didn’t need to replicate it perfectly. But there’s no reason they couldn’t have gone for the same aesthetic. A more makeup based approach instead of thick sort of reptilian-looking rubber. And although Ian was over 20 years older, this isn’t exactly a role where an actor’s age will prevent them from being able to look the part. Assuming he doesn’t gain a ton of weight, he could probably be made to look the part when he’s 90.
But I agree with the rest of what you’ve said.
I can see both sides of the argument here and agree that the 2004 Emperor didn’t really work as well as it could have… but I still think at least in concept, the change is harmless. I don’t mind that much that it’s clearly the RotS Emperor and not the RotJ Emperor, as I still find having the same actor portraying him in all the movies to be a step in the right direction, but I can see how that would bother people. And the added dialogue… Yeah no, get that shit outta my face.
Adywan’s edit is clearly the best version of the scene tho.
The curious thing is that Lucas already started to make changes to the movies when ROTJ was in shooting session, so why didn’t he think about remaking the ESB Emperor scene with Ian in 1982 ? He could have made the change long before the 1997 SE in a perfectly convincing way and no one would complain about that.