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48 fps! — Page 4

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AntcuFaalb said:

timdiggerm said:

AntcuFaalb said:

I was able to see the 3D effects despite my stereo-blindness.

Wait, what?

I assume this means that you felt the immersion of stereo without stereo, I guess thanks to 48fps. Right?

Not really, no.

I meant that I could actually see the little 3D effects in "3D"; e.g., birds flying out at my face.

I guess I don't understand stereo-blindness, then. My mistake.

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I think I had my first real "uncanny valley" moment thanks to The Hobbit. I went in wanting to like it, fully on-board, but I now wish I'd seen it in 2D. The image was so close to reality, but just "off" enough to be weird and confusing. The extra work my brain had to do to pay attention to the story and also process all the extra motion and my immediate negative reaction to it, it was exhausting!

The extra "immersion" provided by the higher frame rate was uncomfortable, "too real" in a way that broke the spell. Real people magically become other characters, other creatures, at 24 fps. At 48 fps, they remain real people in costumes.

When an actor moved quickly, the lack of motion blur made their actions seem sped up. I'm certain that everyone in our theater noticed it. It was very distracting.

The HFR worked on some of the slower stuff, particularly with Gollum, and some of the sweeping vistas. The camera work in Bag End felt particularly rich and believable. But actors working against green screen looked awful in higher framerate. It looks like something filmed for basic cable. It's not cinematic.

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I thought the actors looked the best in HFR. Moving shots sometimes looked like they were moving "too fast." But when it was just a close up of an actor, still, but with all the subtle movements and stray hairs blowing in the wind...that, with the 3D, made the movie come alive for me in a way that no motion picture had before.

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zombie84 said:

But when it was just a close up of an actor, still, but with all the subtle movements and stray hairs blowing in the wind...that, with the 3D, made the movie come alive for me in a way that no motion picture had before.

I actually envy that you had that experience. That's what I wanted to feel! :(

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 (Edited)

asterisk8 said:

zombie84 said:

But when it was just a close up of an actor, still, but with all the subtle movements and stray hairs blowing in the wind...that, with the 3D, made the movie come alive for me in a way that no motion picture had before.

I actually envy that you had that experience. That's what I wanted to feel! :(

Is it possible that you think it didn't look right because you associate the lack of motion blur with crappy shot-on-video productions, such as Soap Operas?

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

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 (Edited)

I don't associate HFR with soap operas. When I think of high frame rates, i think of video games, which is why the scenes with CG Azog reminded me of cut scenes from a PC game.

What I felt was that I was on the set with the actors. The costumes, make-up, and effect were mostly amazing, but in scenes with real people, the high frame rate broke the cinematic spell, exactly like walking onto the set.

I could see HFR 3D working really well with certain kinds of material, but this is not it, as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to be on the set, I want to be in Middle-Earth.

It's similar to a complaint I have with some Blu-Rays, like the Wizard of Oz. It's so crystal clear and sharp that Oz looks like a crummy set now. That's not what a Technicolor print on the silver screen looked like. I don't think a film like The Hobbit is supposed to feel like you're standing there. It's supposed to feel a little less real than that.

Last night, I saw Life of Pi in 3D, and it further convinced me that 24 fps is film. That film would've looked small and "too real" at 48 fps. I never really thought about it until now, but I think 24fps has a charm that's lost at higher frame rates. I'm aware that I'm just used to 24 fps, and HFR technology might have a charm all its own, but it's not the same as the charm of real film.

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asterisk8 said:

I don't associate HFR with soap operas. When I think of high frame rates, i think of video games, which is why the scenes with CG Azog reminded me of cut scenes from a PC game.

What I felt was that I was on the set with the actors. The costumes, make-up, and effect were mostly amazing, but in scenes with real people, the high frame rate broke the cinematic spell, exactly like walking onto the set.

I could see HFR 3D working really well with certain kinds of material, but this is not it, as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to be on the set, I want to be in Middle-Earth.

It's similar to a complaint I have with some Blu-Rays, like the Wizard of Oz. It's so crystal clear and sharp that Oz looks like a crummy set now. That's not what a Technicolor print on the silver screen looked like. I don't think a film like The Hobbit is supposed to feel like you're standing there. It's supposed to feel a little less real than that.

Last night, I saw Life of Pi in 3D, and it further convinced me that 24 fps is film. That film would've looked small and "too real" at 48 fps. I never really thought about it until now, but I think 24fps has a charm that's lost at higher frame rates. I'm aware that I'm just used to 24 fps, and HFR technology might have a charm all its own, but it's not the same as the charm of real film.

You probably don't realize how much we agree. :-)

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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I just came from the movie theatre. I absolutely HATE 48fps :-( It looks terrible, terrible, terrible. The movie feels like a 1980's TV soap opera :-(

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So I finally got to see the HFR Hobbit. IT WAS TERRIBLE. There were moments where it worked pretty well but a lot of the time it just doesn't. A lot of the film felt like I was watching fast forwarded footage and I believe that might have actually been the case at times. I get the feeling Jackson likes to speed up footage to convey fast movement but it just looks like fast forwarding video at 48 FPS.

That's another odd thing about his wanting to film them this way. He's the kind of director that likes to play with time. Having various shots slowed down. Just doesn't work. Same for some effects techniques. The rock giant sequence stands out in my mind a lot. For example there was one shot looking down at the characters as rocks almost fall on their heads. In that shot the characters are all moving at 48 FPS but the rocks are falling very slowly in comparison. It's a shot you can get away with at 24 FPS but it just doesn't translate at higher speeds.

The one thing I will say for it is that it definitely enhanced the 3D. Strangely in one instance to its detriment. During an establishing shot of Rivendell the camera slightly tilts as it rises and the digital matte painting of the buildings really stand out as everything changes perspective except for them. Overall it felt like I was watching a video and not a film and that is not what I'd call progress.

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I saw it.  It was... distracting.  Just like I'm sure the first talkies and... colouries were.

Randomly ordered comments follow: 

By the way, can we start calling these "Smoothies"?  That would be swell.

I think it was an improvement... but I had a hard time just watching the movie because I was focused on the HFR for so much of the time.  As others have stated, the longer one watched the smoothie, the less noticeable the effect was... but then you'd see something that reminded you of it.  Again as others have stated, by the last hour, I was more focused on the movie and not the smoothie, but maybe that was story induced as much as anything else.

I know many have commented on the seemingly sped up nature of certain shots.  I think there were several shots at the beginning that were slightly fast, and it wasn't just an artefact of the HFR.  This seemed to me to be a mistake, because the HFR was already off-putting and I think that people were looking for flaws especially in those first 5 minutes or so.

Can someone who saw it in 24fps comment on whether old Bilbo's actions looked fast at the start of the film?

Similarly, there were several sweeping camera moves that looked too fast.  Again, I'm curious how these looked in 24fps.  I know that camera moves aren't usually faster than a certain speed because then they'd look terrible in 24fps.  So, when you're shooting in 48fps, you can make those faster and still have some clarity... but should you?  Supermodels can't move very fast in some of their runway outfits, but if they could does that mean they should run up and down the runway?  Kind of ruins the point, eh?

Can anyone comment on the sharpness in 24fps?  This was probably the sharpest theatrical movie I have ever seen.  Sharpness in motion is enabled by HFR, but there's nothing to stop a still scene at 24fps from being as sharp as most of this smoothie was.  They just aren't, and I chalk that up to artistic decision.  I'm wondering if the 24fps version was defocused as well as unsmoothed.  They've done this with certain 3D CG movies (Tangled, at the very least) where the 2D version has shallow depth of field and the 3D version has deep focus.  

The sharpness was unnatural at times, but man was it incredible!  It kept reminding me of the first true HD (HP6: Half Blood Prince) I watched in my home theatre and how it didn't blow me away.  It looked a bit better than my upscaled DVDs, but not by a lot.  Then we watched an interview with Rupert Grint, and MAN WAS THAT SHARP!  The whole movie could have been that sharp (and blown upscaled DVD clean away!) but it's an artistic decision not to.  So I'm wondering if the 24fps Hobbit was 1: mostly as sharp as the HFR except for during high motion, 2: wasn't so sharp because the 24fps prohibited that level of sharpness or 3: Was defocused to cater to the audience that didn't want to see any new non-film-like image on the screen.

Was this smoothie the true unveiling of digital?  Has it, like some kind of superhero mutant, been hiding it's true potential all along because it wants to fit in with the 'normal' movies?  

One last comparison.  You know how you've heard by "audiophiles" for years that vinyl sounds better than CD?  It's not just elitist garbage, there's at least one very good reason why this might be the case: the sound track they put on vinyl is a better one than what they put on CD.  Not because they couldn't put the better mastering on the CD, but they figure that CD people don't want it.  They compress the range so that it sounds "better" at odd volumes... like in your car, jogging around the neighbourhood, etc.  But it's hard to listen to vinyl in most of those places or really any place that isn't a comfy listening spot.  So they put the full range on the lp.  

Did they compress the "focus range" intentionally on the 24fps for similar reasons?

Enquiring minds like mine want to know. 

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1990osu said:

Also, black and white should not have died;) It co-existed with color from the 1930s to the 1960s.  It should have remained an option.

Ugh, meh!!!!!

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Suddenly I want to have a blended yogurt and fruit drink.

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I saw it in 24 FPS. Did not notice any shots that looked "sped up" (and that includes sweeping camera moves). As for sharpness, it didn't strike me as noticeably sharper than any other digital film I've seen.

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I know I have to see this mainly for being the first major HFR release, but despite understanding the idea and principle have never been a fan of the practice. I thought that the Todd-AO process on Oklahoma for example introduced some terrible motion issues that are very disconcerting and that was only 30fps!

If Douglas Trumbull can nail his process of varying frame rates then that might be something. He isn't one to just simply be the first, but to do it right no matter the time involved. The Hobbit is merely the first major release gutsy enough to crank up the rate, and there really should be a great deal of effort put into achieving the effect correctly. As it stands, anybody can do 48, 70, 120 fps with standard video, but it underlines the fact that is it merely video and a dull lifeless void of a medium that is not cinematic and certainly not lifelike either.

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I hope to never see 24fps rear it's ugly flickery head again.

5k was great too, not quite 70mm. But defi better than 35mm.

3D effect still seemed a bit off tho. Bit of judder here and there.

I don't understand this attachment to 24fps, it only exists because film is expensive. I guess you like lots of blur and a very flat lifeless look? I want the film to disappear so I can see into the screen as if it was really there. In the same way 70mm does for clarity, 48fps does for motion.

I guess it's the same way that people playing video games have gotten so used to jaggies that they actually complain about antialiasing. Stupid.

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So, you're never going to watch a 24fps film again?

There's no reason the two formats can't coexist. Films are still being made in black and white even.

I think you're confused as to why films look the way they do. Cinematography happens to be an art form.

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Where were you in '77?

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BmB said:

I hope to never see 24fps rear it's ugly flickery head again.

5k was great too, not quite 70mm. But defi better than 35mm.

3D effect still seemed a bit off tho. Bit of judder here and there.

I don't understand this attachment to 24fps, it only exists because film is expensive. I guess you like lots of blur and a very flat lifeless look? I want the film to disappear so I can see into the screen as if it was really there. In the same way 70mm does for clarity, 48fps does for motion.

I guess it's the same way that people playing video games have gotten so used to jaggies that they actually complain about antialiasing. Stupid.

I just don't play anything newer than SNES-era video games. ;)

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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SilverWook said:

There's no reason the two formats can't coexist. Films are still being made in black and white even.

There is. 24fps is ugly.

The framerate, like the resolution, is the medium, not the content. Why would you want your scene to be juddery? Why would you want your film to be in poor definition? There is no good reason.

These are not artistic choices but technical limitations.

Black and white on the other hand is technically superior to colour film in some ways. It has greater dynamic range and definition.

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You must hate watching the films this site revolves around then.

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Where were you in '77?

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He just watches the PAL versions. 25 fps? That's what I'm talking about, baby!

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SilverWook said:

You must hate watching the films this site revolves around then.


Hate and hate. Hate is a strong word. I tried watching ROTS upscaled once, it was great. But upscaling has issues, and it's simply not the same as natural 48.

If the source material is 24 then that's probably preferable, but getting it to look smooth is a nightmare.

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In spite of the weather, and generally feeling like crawling under something to die lately, I made it to an HFR screening of The Hobbit tonight.

I was impressed, and I don't impress easily in my old age. It's not perfect, but it felt very immersive. It was like looking into a giant Viewmaster, only with moving images. It did not look like the soap opera HDTV effect to me at all, and it didn't look like a video game to me either. It takes a little getting used to of course.

I don't think 48fps is going to be for all genres, but what I saw tonight was very promising. It's another paintbrush for a filmmaker to use.

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Where were you in '77?

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I'm thinking since the 3D effect dulls the image, gives people headaches and has strange frame doubling issues here and there and generally adds very little depth to most scenes, that it should really just be scrapped until a better technique comes along.
And because of the fact that the image did not quite compete with 70mm.

That we would be better off going for 8k. I can imagine 8k @ 48fps being quite the spectacle.