The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 187

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

Lol I’m glad Dre left the thread. :p

Who’s Dre?

I don’t get it.

It’s a joke. I’m not here.

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).

I disagree. Vader in the end of TESB destroyed everything Luke believed in and everything in Luke’s world. He had possibly killed his best friend, told him that his dad was not a hero but a monster, made him see his master were liars, destroyed his base at the beginning of the movie, killed several of his friends… and Luke was a young, immature man (if you compare to what he should’ve been in TLJ).

So I highly doubt that the possible future he saw was worse than this. As selfless as anyone may be, we are always biased towards ourselves.

There’s a big difference between being 20 years old and falling on your ass and learning your dad’s a failure and being 50 years old and facing the possibility that you’re a failure and your life’s work has been meaningless.

yeah, that is what i was getting at with my previous post.

• first failure is hard, but he didn’t actually know his dad, and he was still young and in my mind, unwilling to accept the truth of his dad’s evilness, so he kinda muddled through with the stubborness of youth.
• second failure, brought back the first (which he probably didn’t think of a failure before, because he had won vader over right?), and amplified it, added extra layers of failure. People who think they are right all of the time, fail HARD.

Yes, but here’s the problem. Ben hadn’t really done anything by that point, so there was no reason to assume Luke would not continue to believe he could turn the tide. I can sort of accept your reasoning if Ben had crossed over to the dark side in both thought and action, but just the prospect should not be enough, considering Luke’s experiences.

I don’t think either of us are going to budge on this Dre. 😃

-You see Luke choosing to Kill (even if brief) based on the darkness he felt and pain and suffering he saw coming, as being antithetical to Jedi Master, especially Luke.

-I see Luke failing to control himself (briefly) based on the darkness he felt and the pain and suffering he saw coming, as being a believable break in the spirit of someone who seems to be able to do no wrong, but just failed.

I hope i am being fair to your point of view.

And Kylo’s reaction to this brief moment sealed the fate of the failure. Things were set in motion. Luke couldn’t explain anything, he got knocked out. Kylo destroyed everything and left. Luke knew that Kylo must have assumed Luke died, further cementing lukes belief in his utter failure. so he retreated.

yhwx said:

DominicCobb said:

As for Leia’s words, I took it that every Skywalker has Vader in them, Ben (and Luke) included.

This is part of why I think Ben will die in the next movie. There’s obviously a viscous cycle here. The chain needs to be broken.

Well maybe on the first but I disagree on the second. I don’t think Skywalkers are necessarily more inclined to the dark, note that Luke says Rey basically has that same potential.

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

Lol I’m glad Dre left the thread. :p

Who’s Dre?

I don’t get it.

It’s a joke. I’m not here.

I understood it was meant to be a joke, but the construction…ah never mind.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

From what we see and are told in the movie, apparently Luke didn’t even try to talk to Ben before going to him in his hut. And that’s just insane for me. We’re talking about the guy who surrendered himself to the Empire to have some alone time with Hitler to try to convince him that he’s actually a good guy.

Luke said that he had sensed some of this during their training, but had to be sure. It really doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that you ask someone about as a primary way of discovering the truth.

I respectfully disagree. To me, trust is the basis for any relationship, and not just romantic ones. So yes, Luke should’ve talked to Ben before anything. Talking to him would also trigger several of Ben’s inner thoughts and feelings that Luke would be able to sense, given the subject of their discussion, and because Ben at that point probably didn’t know how to close his mind from a Jedi master.

That assumption that i bolded is yours. i think the opposite, and I think there is enough in the movie to point to Ben having already been under some level of tutelage from Snoke at that point, that yeah, he probably could close his mind to a Jedi master. The other reason to believe that he could close his mind, is because Luke choose to search his feelings while he was asleep, with the obvious to discern reason that he couldn’t do it as well when he wasn’t asleep.

For one Luke already told us, he sensed the darkness, but if that were the case, that Ben was closing his mind, the film should have told us. It’s the basis for good story telling IMO. Just insert a line, where Luke sensed Ben was purposefully hiding his true feelings from Luke, something he shouldn’t be able to do.

Why shouldn’t he be able to do that? Everyday people hide their feelings all the time, not hard to imagine someone strong in the force can do the same but better.

Perhaps, but Ben’s just a student, and Luke a Jedi Master. We can hardly expect him to be able to cover his tracks like Palpatine in the PT. I mean, the guy carries his heart on his sleeve.

Yes, and Luke says he sensed the darkness in him beforehand. The fact that he says that and then says that he got a clearer picture of that darkness when he was sensing Ben in his sleep pretty much tells you everything you need to know there, I think.

He doesn’t seem to be able to hide any of his feelings from anyone except Snoke :p.

Nothing Snoke says when he’s sensing Kylo is inaccurate.

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).

I disagree. Vader in the end of TESB destroyed everything Luke believed in and everything in Luke’s world. He had possibly killed his best friend, told him that his dad was not a hero but a monster, made him see his master were liars, destroyed his base at the beginning of the movie, killed several of his friends… and Luke was a young, immature man (if you compare to what he should’ve been in TLJ).

So I highly doubt that the possible future he saw was worse than this. As selfless as anyone may be, we are always biased towards ourselves.

There’s a big difference between being 20 years old and falling on your ass and learning your dad’s a failure and being 50 years old and facing the possibility that you’re a failure and your life’s work has been meaningless.

yeah, that is what i was getting at with my previous post.

• first failure is hard, but he didn’t actually know his dad, and he was still young and in my mind, unwilling to accept the truth of his dad’s evilness, so he kinda muddled through with the stubborness of youth.
• second failure, brought back the first (which he probably didn’t think of a failure before, because he had won vader over right?), and amplified it, added extra layers of failure. People who think they are right all of the time, fail HARD.

Yes, but here’s the problem. Ben hadn’t really done anything by that point, so there was no reason to assume Luke would not continue to believe he could turn the tide. I can sort of accept your reasoning if Ben had crossed over to the dark side in both thought and action, but just the prospect should not be enough, considering Luke’s experiences.

I don’t think either of us are going to budge on this Dre. 😃

You guys are just wasting your time. Although I look forward to Val coming back in about three days to quote all of Dre’s posts and just say “I agree!” to each.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).

I disagree. Vader in the end of TESB destroyed everything Luke believed in and everything in Luke’s world. He had possibly killed his best friend, told him that his dad was not a hero but a monster, made him see his master were liars, destroyed his base at the beginning of the movie, killed several of his friends… and Luke was a young, immature man (if you compare to what he should’ve been in TLJ).

So I highly doubt that the possible future he saw was worse than this. As selfless as anyone may be, we are always biased towards ourselves.

There’s a big difference between being 20 years old and falling on your ass and learning your dad’s a failure and being 50 years old and facing the possibility that you’re a failure and your life’s work has been meaningless.

yeah, that is what i was getting at with my previous post.

• first failure is hard, but he didn’t actually know his dad, and he was still young and in my mind, unwilling to accept the truth of his dad’s evilness, so he kinda muddled through with the stubborness of youth.
• second failure, brought back the first (which he probably didn’t think of a failure before, because he had won vader over right?), and amplified it, added extra layers of failure. People who think they are right all of the time, fail HARD.

Yes, but here’s the problem. Ben hadn’t really done anything by that point, so there was no reason to assume Luke would not continue to believe he could turn the tide. I can sort of accept your reasoning if Ben had crossed over to the dark side in both thought and action, but just the prospect should not be enough, considering Luke’s experiences IMO.

Yeah he hadn’t done anything yet, but Luke’s vision gave way to a momentary temptation that faded away as soon as it came to him. So you’re basically saying Luke should be above temptation which I find ridiculous.

I’m not saying Luke should be above temptation, I’m saying:

1. I needed more setup for the moment where Luke enters Ben’s sleeping quarters, and probes his mind. This setup is required to provide context for Luke’s state of mind, and to be able to determine why Luke considered Kylo a huge threat at that point in time.
2. I needed Luke to to be emotionally compromised in some way, to be momentarily tempted to use force. In the throne room it took the Emperor quite some time to goad Luke into going for his lightsaber, and that involved real pain and suffering, not just feelings.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).

I disagree. Vader in the end of TESB destroyed everything Luke believed in and everything in Luke’s world. He had possibly killed his best friend, told him that his dad was not a hero but a monster, made him see his master were liars, destroyed his base at the beginning of the movie, killed several of his friends… and Luke was a young, immature man (if you compare to what he should’ve been in TLJ).

So I highly doubt that the possible future he saw was worse than this. As selfless as anyone may be, we are always biased towards ourselves.

There’s a big difference between being 20 years old and falling on your ass and learning your dad’s a failure and being 50 years old and facing the possibility that you’re a failure and your life’s work has been meaningless.

yeah, that is what i was getting at with my previous post.

• first failure is hard, but he didn’t actually know his dad, and he was still young and in my mind, unwilling to accept the truth of his dad’s evilness, so he kinda muddled through with the stubborness of youth.
• second failure, brought back the first (which he probably didn’t think of a failure before, because he had won vader over right?), and amplified it, added extra layers of failure. People who think they are right all of the time, fail HARD.

Yes, but here’s the problem. Ben hadn’t really done anything by that point, so there was no reason to assume Luke would not continue to believe he could turn the tide. I can sort of accept your reasoning if Ben had crossed over to the dark side in both thought and action, but just the prospect should not be enough, considering Luke’s experiences IMO.

Yeah he hadn’t done anything yet, but Luke’s vision gave way to a momentary temptation that faded away as soon as it came to him. So you’re basically saying Luke should be above temptation which I find ridiculous.

I’m not saying Luke should be above temptation, I’m saying:

1. I needed more setup for the moment where Luke enters Ben’s sleeping quarters, and probes his mind. This setup is required to provide context for Luke’s state of mind, and to be able to determine why Luke considered Kylo a huge threat at that point in time.

Legitimately don’t know why you feel this way.

2. I needed Luke to to be enotionally compromised in some way, to be momentarily tempted to use force. In the throne room it took the Emperor quite some time to goad Luke into going for his lightsaber, and that involved real pain and suffering, not just feelings.

Difference is, Luke went to face Vader and the Emperor knowing he’d be tempted and was prepared for it. His situation with Ben caught him off guard and vulnerable, his solution was sparked by his hubris.

yhwx said:

This invasion of privacy stuff is nonsense. Luke isn’t the NSA. Was it an “invasion of privacy” when Vader mind proved Luke in ROTJ? As for Luke entering Ben’s bedroom, sure, it’s a little weird, but I don’t think the temple has high expectations of privacy.

I think it was.

yhwx said:

It’s amazing how people have selective amnesia. Yes, Luke did throw away his saber in ROTJ, but a few seconds before, he was about to kill Vader. And a few minutes before that, he’s prepared to “strike down” the Emperor, only to have his faithful apprentice intercept the attack.

I would call that a character arc. These things didn’t happen in a random order. Luke get’s goaded into using force, first by Palps, then by Vader to the point of almost killing Vader. Luke realizes he’s about to follow in his father footsteps, and composes himself, tossing away his lightsaber. He’s learned a valuable lesson, and passed the test. A test he then again fails in TLJ.

This invasion of privacy stuff is nonsense. Luke isn’t the NSA. Was it an “invasion of privacy” when Vader mind proved Luke in ROTJ?

Eh, yeah, Vader is the villain. Either way, Luke was fully awake and aware at that point in time, unlike Ben Solo.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).

I disagree. Vader in the end of TESB destroyed everything Luke believed in and everything in Luke’s world. He had possibly killed his best friend, told him that his dad was not a hero but a monster, made him see his master were liars, destroyed his base at the beginning of the movie, killed several of his friends… and Luke was a young, immature man (if you compare to what he should’ve been in TLJ).

So I highly doubt that the possible future he saw was worse than this. As selfless as anyone may be, we are always biased towards ourselves.

There’s a big difference between being 20 years old and falling on your ass and learning your dad’s a failure and being 50 years old and facing the possibility that you’re a failure and your life’s work has been meaningless.

yeah, that is what i was getting at with my previous post.

• first failure is hard, but he didn’t actually know his dad, and he was still young and in my mind, unwilling to accept the truth of his dad’s evilness, so he kinda muddled through with the stubborness of youth.
• second failure, brought back the first (which he probably didn’t think of a failure before, because he had won vader over right?), and amplified it, added extra layers of failure. People who think they are right all of the time, fail HARD.

Yes, but here’s the problem. Ben hadn’t really done anything by that point, so there was no reason to assume Luke would not continue to believe he could turn the tide. I can sort of accept your reasoning if Ben had crossed over to the dark side in both thought and action, but just the prospect should not be enough, considering Luke’s experiences IMO.

Yeah he hadn’t done anything yet, but Luke’s vision gave way to a momentary temptation that faded away as soon as it came to him. So you’re basically saying Luke should be above temptation which I find ridiculous.

I’m not saying Luke should be above temptation, I’m saying:

1. I needed more setup for the moment where Luke enters Ben’s sleeping quarters, and probes his mind. This setup is required to provide context for Luke’s state of mind, and to be able to determine why Luke considered Kylo a huge threat at that point in time.

Legitimately don’t know why you feel this way.

Because Luke doesn’t know what we know as the viewer. He cannot really see the future, only a possible future, as Yoda taught him in TESB. So, unless Kylo really did or was about to do something terrible, he’s just a potential threat, not a real threat in my view.

2. I needed Luke to to be enotionally compromised in some way, to be momentarily tempted to use force. In the throne room it took the Emperor quite some time to goad Luke into going for his lightsaber, and that involved real pain and suffering, not just feelings.

Difference is, Luke went to face Vader and the Emperor knowing he’d be tempted and was prepared for it. His situation with Ben caught him off guard and vulnerable, his solution was sparked by his hubris.

Luke knows full well there’s always a danger of falling to the dark side. He’d seen it with Vader, and experienced it for himself. So, if anything he should be more prepared for the eventuality than Obi-Wan and Yoda.

My favorite part of that statement was how he said they were exactly the same, I pointed out they weren’t, and then he said he hated how they weren’t.

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

It’s amazing how people have selective amnesia. Yes, Luke did throw away his saber in ROTJ, but a few seconds before, he was about to kill Vader. And a few minutes before that, he’s prepared to “strike down” the Emperor, only to have his faithful apprentice intercept the attack.

I would call that a character arc. These things didn’t happen in a random order. Luke get’s goaded into using force, first by Palps, then by Vader to the point of almost killing Vader. Luke realizes he’s about to follow in his father footsteps, and composes himself, tossing away his lightsaber. He’s learned a valuable lesson, and passed the test. A test he then again fails in TLJ.

How did he fail that same test? Aren’t his actions just consistent with how he was portrayed in ROTJ? A person doesn’t stop making mistakes just because they make the right decision one time. As you pointed out, the Emperor goaded Luke into striking. Vader goaded Luke into striking. He seems to like striking and be easily goaded and then later comes to his senses. How then is going to Ben’s hut to confront him and freaking out about how far he has fallen and igniting his light saber out of character. It seems totally in character by the very example you have provided. That is his MO. React on instinct and then let his wisdom rein him in. You have just proven with your own examples that Luke’s actions in Ben’s hut are 100% consistent with ROTJ Luke.

This invasion of privacy stuff is nonsense. Luke isn’t the NSA. Was it an “invasion of privacy” when Vader mind proved Luke in ROTJ?

Eh, yeah, Vader is the villain. Either way, Luke was fully awake and aware at that point in time, unlike Ben Solo.

And you think it isn’t a Jedi Master’s job to keep tabs on their students? Asleep or awake it doesn’t matter. Being the master implies consent to scan your students for hints of the dark side. From the setup we are given, it seems like Luke fell down on the job on this and had failed to keep tabs on his nephew and decided to correct it (again acting on instinct and then letting his wisdom fix things) by confronting him, found him asleep and took a peek (Yoda’s dialog in TESB indicates he was keeping tabs on Luke for years, likely both asleep and awake) as a master should do and was horrified at how far he had fallen and how complete it was. He had a vision of a possible future (ever in motion the future is) and ignited his lightsaber on instinct (as Ben taught him - “Let go your conscious self and act on instinct”) before his wisdom took over, but by then Ben was awake and the damage done. And Luke runs off (as Ben and Yoda did, and as he himself did in TESB and ROTJ) to find answers at the first Jedi Temple. His failure was not just in igniting his lightsaber, it was in failing to see the darkness in his nephew. I was failing Leia. For a man who grew up an orphan, found his father and sister, redeemed his father (and hopefully has conversed with his force ghost though that is pure conjection) and then fails his sister in the one thing she needed his help with… can you just imagine the level of anguish that would cause? He failed both of his living blood relatives. Not to mention his best friend.

It is not so much that I don’t respect your right to your opinion, it is that I am confused how you got there. Everything about the Luke from the OT that I grew up with points to this being a logical offshoot and a story that makes sense in setting up the ST.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yhwx said:

It’s amazing how people have selective amnesia. Yes, Luke did throw away his saber in ROTJ, but a few seconds before, he was about to kill Vader. And a few minutes before that, he’s prepared to “strike down” the Emperor, only to have his faithful apprentice intercept the attack.

I would call that a character arc. These things didn’t happen in a random order. Luke get’s goaded into using force, first by Palps, then by Vader to the point of almost killing Vader. Luke realizes he’s about to follow in his father footsteps, and composes himself, tossing away his lightsaber. He’s learned a valuable lesson, and passed the test. A test he then again fails in TLJ.

How did he fail that same test? Aren’t his actions just consistent with how he was portrayed in ROTJ? A person doesn’t stop making mistakes just because they make the right decision one time. As you pointed out, the Emperor goaded Luke into striking. Vader goaded Luke into striking. He seems to like striking and be easily goaded and then later comes to his senses. How then is going to Ben’s hut to confront him and freaking out about how far he has fallen and igniting his light saber out of character. It seems totally in character by the very example you have provided. That is his MO. React on instinct and then let his wisdom rein him in. You have just proven with your own examples that Luke’s actions in Ben’s hut are 100% consistent with ROTJ Luke.

I don’t agree. The idea of a character arc is, that people make a journey, usually learning from their mistakes, such that they don’t make that mistake again. In TESB Luke drew his weapon first when confronted with Vader, itching for a fight. In ROTJ Luke had to be goaded into a fight, and he resisted the Emperor for a long time, despite the real threat and suffering he faced. Luke learned from his experience in TESB, as he learned from his experience in ROTJ to finally become a Jedi. So, after ROTJ Luke should have grown beyond such mistakes in my view. The situation with the possible future of Ben Solo pales in comparison to Luke’s previous real experiences from my point of view, and so he should have been able to control himself. Let’s not forget Luke has had at least two decades to learn from his experiences before his fallout with young Ben, and to grow as a Jedi Master. Yet, TLJ seems to suggest the opposite happened. Luke regressed, and turned out to have become a far worse Jedi than Obi-Wan or Yoda, despite growing beyond their dogma in ROTJ.

And Luke runs off (as Ben and Yoda did, and as he himself did in TESB and ROTJ) to find answers at the first Jedi Temple.

There’s nothing in TLJ to suggest Luke went looking for answers. He said he came there to die. The situation cannot be compared to Obi-Wan and Yoda, who bided their time until there was a real hope of defeating the Empire. When Leia asked Obi-Wan for help in their most desperate hour, he gave it to them. Luke just gave up, and refused to help.

His failure was not just in igniting his lightsaber, it was in failing to see the darkness in his nephew. I was failing Leia. For a man who grew up an orphan, found his father and sister, redeemed his father (and hopefully has conversed with his force ghost though that is pure conjection) and then fails his sister in the one thing she needed his help with… can you just imagine the level of anguish that would cause? He failed both of his living blood relatives. Not to mention his best friend.

He did not fail to see the darkness, he simply misjudged how far Ben had already fallen. How does he go about fixing his error of judgement? He becomes anti-Jedi, and runs away. The end result: his best friend is dead, and his sister is in a coma. That’s quite a character change for it to be condensed to a sixty second flashback.

It is not so much that I don’t respect your right to your opinion, it is that I am confused how you got there. Everything about the Luke from the OT that I grew up with points to this being a logical offshoot and a story that makes sense in setting up the ST.

Yeah, and everything I grew up with points in the opposite direction. We just don’t agree, and have a different interpretation of a character, which is perfectly fine. You will continue to enjoy the ST, while for me the saga ends with a final victory in ROTJ while old Sebastian Shaw looks proudly at his son, who will rebuild the Jedi order in a new era of peace and justice.

Making a mistake is human. Making the same mistake twice is foolish. (Or something like that)

Collipso said:

Making a mistake is human. Making the same mistake twice is foolish. (Or something like that)

maybe you mean “All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from their mistakes.” - Winston Churchill

So Luke is a fool then in your eyes?

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

Making a mistake is human. Making the same mistake twice is foolish. (Or something like that)

maybe you mean “All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from their mistakes.” - Winston Churchill

So Luke is a fool then in your eyes?

Obviously. He gave the nice pigman #1 a nap, and then did it again with pigman #2.

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Which would cause you more emotional trauma.

• Father who you never knew and who you thought was dead, and just found out he is this evil man
• Nephew who you knew from birth, and whom your sister (who was with you through all the previous trama about your vader daddy) entrusted to you to train correctly, is a dark dark soul, and you FAILED to save him.

The first one is trauma for sure, but I don’t think it compares at all the the extreme trauma of the second one. The second one brings back the first trauma, and then adds layers and layers of extra trauma on top.

So yeah, Luke was pretty upset that he failed Leah and Klyo.

And i posted this earlier, but there is a good chance i deleted the post. but in my take on things, the luke we saw in the OT was three movies of a young idealistic kid who valued his own take on things above anyone elses. He trusted himself to be right more than he trusted what anyone told him. When these types of people fail, the fail HARD. I am this type of person.

Notwithstanding the capitalization of “failed,” the notion that Luke failed to save Ben and that Luke came to that conclusion falls entirely flat. More is needed to establish such a reaction. If Luke is now that brittle, I’d want to know what happened to make him that way in the decades prior to sensing bad stuff in Ben’s mind.

thats just like, your opinion, man.

JEDIT: i should i add a 😉 so that you know i am being nice. I just think that this conversation has sorta reached a not so thrilling conclusion.

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

Making a mistake is human. Making the same mistake twice is foolish. (Or something like that)

maybe you mean “All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from their mistakes.” - Winston Churchill

So Luke is a fool then in your eyes?

Yeah, I was talking about that I guess.

In a way yes, Luke is a fool. Or do you think he was very wise disregarding everything that he learned in the throne room and going into poor Ben’s hut and igniting his lightsaber? Yoda also told him that he must gain control over himself.

And Obi-Wan said that the force partially controls your actions, and that your eyes can deceive you. In the trench run yes, he did tell Luke to basically trust his instincts, but he never told Luke to let go of logic, ever.

Speaking of Obi-Wan, he’s a man that learned from his mistakes. Compare PT Obi-Wan and OT Obi-Wan, and you’ll see they’re the same character, only that they grown from their mistakes. Yoda too, but less so than Obi-Wan.