All Things Star Trek — Page 157

Warbler said:

doubleofive said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Star Trek and Stargate both go by the premise that “anything that can happen does happen in alternate quantum realities.” It’s just that the characters from those realities assert that their version of reality is the only one that matters (which is an actual quote from Teal’c.)

The Prime Universe does still exist. As does the universe in Yesterday’s Enterprise and the Mirror Universe. To say that Prime does not exist is to say Mirror does not exist; and the Mirror Universe’s timeline, which is wholly separate from Prime, was accessed repeatedly by Prime characters (and vice versa) during the events of Deep Space Nine, not to mention TOS and Enterprise.

Star Trek 2009 nine makes it clear that the Narada when back in time, altered history and thereby turned the prime universe into the Kelvin universe. There may be an alternate universe that is exactly the same at the prime universe, but it would only be a duplicate universe and not the prime universe. As far as I know, Discovery does not take place in an alternate universe that is a duplicate of the prime universe, it takes place in the prime universe itself.

It actually specifically makes the opposite clear. The Narada created a divergent timeline that they call “an alternate reality”. The Prime universe is still there, untouched (just without Romulus). See also: Star Trek Online, which continues in a post-Romulus Prime timeline.

No where in Star Trek 2009 does it say that the Narada went to a different universe, it just went back in time and changed history.

SPOCK: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero’s very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.

If the writers meant for it to wipe out the Prime timeline (which they specifically say they didn’t), they would not have had them describe it IN THE MOVIE as an alternate reality. There are enough changes in the prologue of the movie to show that it might be a completely alternate universe, like another Mirror Universe.

Me, right now

As for Discovery, it takes place in the Prime timeline. Nothing about the content of the plot has contradicted anything in the timeline that I can see. The visual changes should not be explained away in-universe, like Enterprise tried to do with the Augment Virus. This is how it looks in a show made in 2017, just as it should. As fun as the fan films are with their 100% accurate sets and makeup, that isn’t want a modern trek should be. It SHOULD be pushing the envelope for effects and prosthetics and telling stories that are relevant to today, and you know what, Discovery is doing exactly that.

I disagree. If you want it to be “how it looks in a show made in 2017”, then call it a total reboot, totally having nothing to do with the original cannon. But if you are going to put it in the original cannon, it should look like it.

Do you have this problem with Enterprise? Do you accept that the Refit Enterprise in TMP is the same ship as the original, even though every detail of her is different? How do you feel about Cardassians and Trill changing between TNG and DS9? They’re all in the Prime universe, but each one has a different spin on how things look because that’s how you make television.

Warbler said:

doubleofive said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Star Trek and Stargate both go by the premise that “anything that can happen does happen in alternate quantum realities.” It’s just that the characters from those realities assert that their version of reality is the only one that matters (which is an actual quote from Teal’c.)

The Prime Universe does still exist. As does the universe in Yesterday’s Enterprise and the Mirror Universe. To say that Prime does not exist is to say Mirror does not exist; and the Mirror Universe’s timeline, which is wholly separate from Prime, was accessed repeatedly by Prime characters (and vice versa) during the events of Deep Space Nine, not to mention TOS and Enterprise.

Star Trek 2009 nine makes it clear that the Narada when back in time, altered history and thereby turned the prime universe into the Kelvin universe. There may be an alternate universe that is exactly the same at the prime universe, but it would only be a duplicate universe and not the prime universe. As far as I know, Discovery does not take place in an alternate universe that is a duplicate of the prime universe, it takes place in the prime universe itself.

It actually specifically makes the opposite clear. The Narada created a divergent timeline that they call “an alternate reality”. The Prime universe is still there, untouched (just without Romulus). See also: Star Trek Online, which continues in a post-Romulus Prime timeline.

No where in Star Trek 2009 does it say that the Narada went to a different universe, it just went back in time and changed history.

That’s not how time travel in Star Trek works. You should watch the TNG episode “Parallels” again. In that episode, Troi was not worried about being non-existent should Worf fix the space-time continuum; she was worried that her version of Worf, to whom she was married and had children, would not return to be with her after all was said and done.

The timelines that Worf encountered in that episode were “alternate timelines” that existed before that episode and continue to exist afterward. The Trek multiverse does not have a single line of causality in which only one version exists at any one time. I’m certain we do, here, in real life, but Star Trek is fiction. So there doesn’t have to be a real life that-doesn’t-make-sense-from-what-I-know-of-God reasoning for why Trek must have a single timeline.

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

doubleofive said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Star Trek and Stargate both go by the premise that “anything that can happen does happen in alternate quantum realities.” It’s just that the characters from those realities assert that their version of reality is the only one that matters (which is an actual quote from Teal’c.)

The Prime Universe does still exist. As does the universe in Yesterday’s Enterprise and the Mirror Universe. To say that Prime does not exist is to say Mirror does not exist; and the Mirror Universe’s timeline, which is wholly separate from Prime, was accessed repeatedly by Prime characters (and vice versa) during the events of Deep Space Nine, not to mention TOS and Enterprise.

Star Trek 2009 nine makes it clear that the Narada when back in time, altered history and thereby turned the prime universe into the Kelvin universe. There may be an alternate universe that is exactly the same at the prime universe, but it would only be a duplicate universe and not the prime universe. As far as I know, Discovery does not take place in an alternate universe that is a duplicate of the prime universe, it takes place in the prime universe itself.

It actually specifically makes the opposite clear. The Narada created a divergent timeline that they call “an alternate reality”. The Prime universe is still there, untouched (just without Romulus). See also: Star Trek Online, which continues in a post-Romulus Prime timeline.

No where in Star Trek 2009 does it say that the Narada went to a different universe, it just went back in time and changed history.

That’s not how time travel in Star Trek works. You should watched the TNG episode “Parallels” again. In that episode, Troi was not worried about being non-existent should Worf fix the space-time continuum; she was worried that her version of Worf, to whom she was married and had children, would not return to be with her after all was said and done.

The timelines that Worf encountered in that episode were “alternate timelines” that existed before that episode and continue to exist afterward. The Trek multiverse does not have a single line of causality in which only one version exists at any one time. I’m certain we do, here, in real life, but Star Trek is fiction. So there doesn’t have to be a real life that-doesn’t-make-sense-from-what-I-know-of-God reasoning for why Trek must have a single timeline.

Yes, “Parallels”! Perfect!

I firmly believe that events like Star Trek 4 create multiple timelines. There’s one in which the Bounty disappears and Earth is destroyed. Then there’s the one the series continues to follow, where they reappear with the whales. We just follow the timeline where the main characters happen to be at the time.

Actually, the term used was “alternate quantum realities.”

And Geordi Data had a diagram of the time continuum up on the panel when he was trying to explain Worf’s predicament. Here let me find it…

Done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzUEu7Gb7Cg

DATA: I believe the quantum fissure we discovered is a fixed point across the space time continuum. A keyhole which intersects many other quantum realities.
TROI: What do you mean, quantum realities?
DATA: For any event, there is an infinite number of possible outcomes. Our choices determine which outcomes will follow. But there is a theory in quantum physics that all possibilities that can happen, do happen in alternate quantum realities.
WORF: And somehow I have been shifting from one reality to another.

repost:

Actually, the term used was “alternate quantum realities.”

And Geordi Data had a diagram of the time continuum up on the panel when he was trying to explain Worf’s predicament. Here let me find it…

Done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzUEu7Gb7Cg

DATA: I believe the quantum fissure we discovered is a fixed point across the space time continuum. A keyhole which intersects many other quantum realities.
TROI: What do you mean, quantum realities?
DATA: For any event, there is an infinite number of possible outcomes. Our choices determine which outcomes will follow. But there is a theory in quantum physics that all possibilities that can happen, do happen in alternate quantum realities.
WORF: And somehow I have been shifting from one reality to another.

LOOK AT THAT DIAGRAM. That is what the multiverse space-time continuum looks like in Trek. They all exist. When a choice is made—when any action takes place that could have had an alternate outcome—one or more new alternate timelines diverge from that event.

Warbler said:

Tell me, in “The City on the Edge of Forever” when Mccoy goes back in time and saves Edith Keeler does he simply change history or somehow create a new timelime?

He created a new timeline.

McCoy created a new timeline when he saved her. But Kirk and Spock were stuck in (the 23rd century of) that new timeline, with the only way to get back being to undo the damage caused by McCoy.

Albeit, technically they may not have gone back to their original timeline, but created a new, extremely similar one. In Star Trek, sometimes alternate timelines converge and sometimes predestined timeloops exist, so it’s hard to say which one happened.

We’re arguing about how time travel works in a fictional universe. The writers can make time travel work however they want. The writers of the new Star Trek movies are well on record saying they didn’t replace the Prime Timeline.

My final point: The Supernova-Powered Red Matter Black Hole is possibly closer to a quantum fissure than the thousand other ways people travel in time, possibly putting people in alternate quantum realities. It’s not like we would know any better because any time travel story is affected by what character the audience is meant to follow. It’s possible that my Star Trek 4 theory happens every time someone jumps in time, we just don’t stick with the existing timeline but jump with them into the new one. People aren’t ever saving their timeline, they just find themselves in the timelines they fixed by their own actions.

To keep it out of theory and into canon, “In A Mirror Darkly” shows that the Defiant from Tholian Web ends up in the past and in an alternate reality.

And with that, I leave the thread.

When Sisko had to explain the events of “Trials and Tribble-ations” (DS9 characters going back to the “Trouble with Tribbles” TOS episode) to the Department of Temporal Investigations, they asked him which of those types of temporal events he thought had occured. And the Defiant DID go back in time in that episode.

Also, the Voyager episode “Relativity” (Seven and Janeway time-traveling to prevent a bomb on Voyager) has the crew of the USS Relativity combining the different versions of a character that were created by the “temporal incursions” they had caused. In effect, time traveling in that episode created multiple timelines, and the Relativity was able to somehow combine different iterations of a person from separate timelines back together again.

Warbler said:

I disagree. McCoy went back in time and altered history and thereby altered the timeline. He didn’t create a whole new one. If I went back in time and prevented the Lincoln assassination, I wouldn’t create a new timeline, I would just alter the original one.

Thank you, that’s another point I forgot.

If you went back in time to prevent the Lincoln assassination, what happens to you after it happens? Where did you come from anywhere? Your entire history has changed. And then in 2017, you wouldn’t have any reason to go back in time, hell, you might not even exist. What then?

Time travel actually creating alternate timelines prevents this from being a problem. You now live in the newly created past, from a reality where Lincoln was killed, but having created a timeline where he hasn’t.

Warbler said:

I disagree. McCoy went back in time and altered history and thereby altered the timeline.

But again, this is fine. You can disagree. But your opinion is not fact, nor is it Truth. It is an interpretation based on available evidence and how you choose to lend weight to different testimonies and exhibits. For example, I do not lend any weight to George Lucas’ revised interpretation of the Original Trilogy (read: Special Edition). I do not lend more weight to the theatrical edits of the Prequels than those made by fans just because they are labelled “official”.

I want to appreciate and enjoy the Prime Universe, and I therefore lend more weight to evidence that it still exists. You don’t have to, but you also don’t have to tell me that I shouldn’t in a manner suggesting that I am otherwise wrong.

Again, my doing so is not contrary to the Truth because this is a work of fiction. I understand that Truth is not actually left up to interpretation (ie. God exists whether I believe in Him or not), but that’s not what we’re dealing with here. There is evidence to support either argument and you’re free to choose what your interpretation is.